Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Selkies]

38 hours should be plenty provided people are here to discuss and interact.

Most of the games I've played had 12-24 hour days from daybreak to nightfall. It's a lot of time if people use it well.

So, my recent read changes,

Nero Cain --> moved townward
Ms Marangal --> moved scumward, but this flavor stuff and throwing it into the read reasons...need to think about that.
SoO --> moved townward
ThAdmiral --> moved townward

This sucks because all the people I was willing to think about lynching have moved townward. Back to the isos.

[Ghostlin]

I know nothing of the series Swords

Then upon what were you basing your supposition that all dreamwalkers are town? There is really no reason to think this.

Discounting flavour as something that could influence how roles work: Masons are modconfirmed to each other in their role PMs, so I'm thinking dreamwalkers are more like neighbourisers, and the one time I played with a neighbouriser, he neigbourised scum.

Counting flavour: Does anyone think "the dangers of the dream realm" could refer to anything other than its inhabitants? The Forsaken were dreamwalkers. It stands to reason that scum could easily have access to the dream.

Swords is

so

not scum.

On what basis do you form your last sentence? Here, let me diagram your post for you: Questioning MM (this is fine, and actually could tell us a lot about her, it's a strange assumption I admit and she could be using a false verification gambit).

Setup speculation (which is crummy. And yes, depending on the mechanics the mod has set up, the "dangers of the dream realm," as I put it, could mean mod events, or the fact that the Forsaken walk there, or BOTH. Or it could be flavor. That piece of the post is pointless, because I have the fucking role PM and I don't know what it sodding means.).

And then the declaration that Swords isn't scum without reasoning.

[Cephrir]

Vote Count 1.18

ThAdmiral 4

(Belisarius, Amrun, milkshake, Demon)

sword_of_omens 4

(Iecerint, Nero Cain, Ghostlin, GoodCop_BadCop)

milkshake 3

(ThAdmiral, MattP, Ms Marangal)

Ms Marangal 1

(sword_of_omens)

Not Voting 1

(Selkies)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is Monday, June 3rd, at 9 PM EST. This is in (expired on 2013-06-03 21:00:00).

[Nero Cain]

Mara, can I get a quick rundown of all your reads on all the slots with a tiny blurb why?

[Selkies]

Amrun

181
This is a ton of first impressions on players. It should make trajectory analysis easy.
From this post:
Selkies - uber scummy
Nero - mixed, vouches for his meta.
Milk - townish
Ghostlin - waffles (I would call it hedging)
She omments that if milk is town, then Ghostlin is probably scum
makes a correcting comment about beli's post. this could be associative.

182
votes Ghostlin, though the case is less objective and weaker than the one on us.

184
Questions nero about "town read" on us.

187
More to Nero, about his associative theory re MattP and us.

190, 194, 199
exchange with Ghostlin. No real push/build regarding the Ghostlin vote so far nor any bandwagon building effort.

233
Pushes back at Nero over the milk/selk association

227, 228
more convo with Ghostlin. No sense here yet that she's talking to someone in her scumpile, much less voting.

230, 232
asks Ghostlin to summarize opinion of us, brushes me off when I challenge her for not engaging me directly.

231, 335
part of a back and forth with orcinus-selkies, engages with GCBC, and opines a little about Ghostlin. Seems to soften a little bit on the Ghostlin scum read.

354
not liking this dismissal of my comment now that I look at it again. it's as though nothing in the game should weigh on my ongoing impression/read formation of her since I liked her second post.

369
Milk's read is now scum. Didn't see much build-up to this in the previous posts. Also want to note that the Selkies read went more and more in the scum direction, while the vote sat on Ghostlin since early in the game. Think's Ghostlin is talking about/treating milk as though he's town while calling him scum.

375
Now going after Ghostlin over his FoS of SoO.

388, 391, 392, etc.
THE GREAT MISUNDERSTANDING.
This convo comes off as town totally missing the point. The depth and subtlety required for this to be a scum performance leaves me dumbfounded. If Amrun is scum I don't ever want to play with her again because I am not worthy.

409
whoo! votes Selkies. No question we were scum runner up since early in the game.

441
votes ThAdmiral. Apparently a pressure vote. No reason advanced for my no longer being uberscum.

539
ThAdmiral Jester. No real effort to push him. No questions, etc. Compared to the engagement with Ghostlin, the level of engagement with ThAdmiral and me is extremely lacking. Chalk up to Balto meet?

582
Final post, SoO is uber town, and ThAdmiral should be lynched.
Overall there is good trajectory on positions and changes. Reads mostly seem subtle and nuanced. The irritability over the vote on me and the change to ThAdmiral look at first like annoyance that the case on Ghostlin collapsed and then like no time for the game. But, this is something to look for in future days, I think. it would be exhausting as scum to keep up the usually excellent level of nuance in reads and cases on people.

[Selkies]

One thing about Amrun's posts, and I'm not sure it's a big deal. Compared to some players, Amrun mostly steered clear of discussion about MattP's vt claim.

[ThAdmiral]

I'll move my vote to soo if I have to but I'd still prefer milk lynch.

[Selkies]

Beliasaurus

203
First reads list. Looks like one scum read. Was Selkies. nobody loves us.

256, 278, 295 300...
gets into a discussion about MattP's vt claim. doesn't look like he really cares for the discussion.
stays out of the milkwagon stuff.

307
Votes Ghostlin. not a lot of trajectory to this vote.

311
more mattp stuff.

313
asks GCBC if a Selkies vote is out of the question. Seems like an odd post.

434
votes ThAdmiral because convo stopping.

440
explains vote

462
calls his wagon horseshit.

523
another good post when a self-preserving vote option is dangled by ThAdmiral

563
more vote explanation, offers self as lynch candidate if ThAdmiral flips town.

646
dreamwalker flavor stuff.

Trajectories are interesting. subtle telegraphing > vote > wtf is this reactions from other players > cogent and townish explanations. Attitude toward self preservation reads as fearless town.

Leaning town.

[Ms Marangal]

Then upon what were you basing your supposition that all dreamwalkers are town? There is really no reason to think this.

My role PM or my previous experience maybe?

With the flavor of the PM: it talked about the dangerousness of the place, not the inhabitants and I thought that all the inhabitants would experience the exact same dangers as everyone else, meaning everyone is town

RE, my experience: I tend to think that everyone I am able to talk to privately is of the same alignment as me as I have never had experience of having a private chat with those of opposite alignments as me. I have yet to have experience with Neighbors/neigboriser and I didn't even know/forgot it existed


sword_of_omens-town-lean
I originally had him as null, moved him to scum, then back to town though I think I have been fairly clear to the reasons why he is moving around so much. alot of it is Paranoia I think, I felt like I had to goad him into a 1v1 with me and I was his scum read. He said that he didn't much to go on, though he still didn't say why he didn't ask me questions to try and further his scum read on me. Also, he had a scum-read on Thad but didn't vote him despite him being closer to being lynched, which to me looked like someone who was scared of being called out for opportunism opting to start a wagon, though re-reading his exchange with Ghost I think there might be some merit there. I'm leaning town on him now though, because I can't see swords scum pointing out the plausible scum walking around the dreamworld as scum, it's to high risk and the rewards he would have gotten don't quite match up it.

milkshake-scum-lean
alot of it is my most recent exchange with him. his responses to being pressured and questioned is horrible and I think he fenced when he wasn't being questioned about stuff. He responds to only part of my point against him, ignoring the rest and the point he does point out is him admitting that he OMGUS'd and he is showing that he is aware that OMGUS is more likely to be done by town, than by scum so I'm not inclined to use the fact that he's OMGUS'ing those who think he's scum to clear him.

Selkies (fferyllt + orcinus_theoriginal)-Town
I Think this is fairly obvious, and I'm getting this vibe more from Ffery than I am from Orci I think. I can see ffery's frustration and tad paranoia in her words, and I can see her trying to understand things from other peoples perspective. The vibe I get from her is extremely genuine, and her thoughts are followable I think

ThAdmiral-town
Thad is town, town, town. I really can't see anything he's been doing coming from a scum-mindset. He's been fairly aggressive when he has been here, he's been pushing his top scum read, confusion and Paranoia could be found in his posts when he was talking to Omens and his recent actions RE his claim and refusal to full claim is just way, way to stubborn for scum to be doing it. at this point, scum would be trying to survive and doing what they could to see that survival happen, being stubborn is not someone coming from a survival-oriented mindset would be doing

Ghostlin-scum-lean
This is mostly coming from the points raised by Omens. Looking at the exchange, Omens was accusing Ghost of trying to draw out the dream walkers by soft claiming his role, and looking at the reactions to his hint, he I would say he got more dream-walkers than he said he does. I don't think Omens was the only one who was dragged out from that claim

Demon-scum
I have already explained this, and my reasons for demon scum still stand. He is still my top pick for lynch and I will move back to him if there is a chance of him happening. His response to "his lynch not going through" sounds like cocky scum.

GoodCop_BadCop* (ProHawk + Cabd)-town-lean
The points brought up RE milkshake is good, though I'm thinking he doesn't like my reaction to Thad? still not sure why he doesn't ask me about it


These guys I don't really anything beyond gut for them. I'll take a look at them and try to form an opinion, but not right now because we don't have the time
Belisarius-Null
Nero Cain-town-lean
Iecerint-null
Amrun-town-lean
MattP Null

[sword_of_omens]

checking in on my phone...

@Nero
I have milk as town now..I've actually liked his later posting, but mainly its for something he said in one of his posts..i could point it out if I need to but I'd prefer not to just yet....

Thad could still go either way for me..he's usually pretty nonchalant as scum and can talk a good game. I didn't like his strange vote and unvote on amrun, like I said before, I think he has a better chance of being sum of MsM flips sum... his behavior seems wierd this game...

MsM

[Selkies]

18, 19
random votes us. then moves to matt "better vote". wtf? random...
from there an exchange with Matt "I think you are scum." works around to the idea that Matt is trying to get a read on Ghostlin.

35
revotes us. vote hopping is weird. did we look like an easy target or something?
^^ all this seemed town to me in real time, though. don't want to lose sight of that.

94
is weird. maybe it just wasn't obvious due to not signing posts enough. orcinus did the voting and a lot of the arguing during the rvs period of our first rvs game. I was mostly townhunting and defending a leaning-town read from orcinus' bloodyminded intent to get him lynched.
reason for not voting us? where's the reason to vote milkshake? or was it just that obvious at that point in the game?

156
catches an inconsistency.

159
another unsupported vote. no followup.

262
this post looks townish.

302
"methinks" this word always makes me think scum. :/

340, 341
good pushback to Miss Destroyer.

344
compared to his prior posts this has a passive feel to it.

346
pushes beli

348
reaching out for info. often townish. not always.

356
posts start to get longer and more thoughtful looking.

460
like this response to MsM.
from here lots of back and forth between them. he holds his own.

598
changes his vote to ThAdmiral.

I thought this iso might reveal a scum pov after MsM pushing him as a wagon. I am not seeing it.

[sword_of_omens]

augh I hate my phone...

MsM- are you saying you have played a Wheel of time game before, then ? Can you link it please?
can you please link it?

@Ghistlin- look at 171 and please tell me what you see...

@ThAd - do you have a 3rd party game of yours that you could link me to?






guys... I'm pretty darn certain MsM is scum

[Selkies]

Not isoing ghostlin because he's town to me.

Not isoing Nero Cain again because I did it yesterday and it changed my read.

p-edit. I'm thinking similarly SoO.

[Amrun]

One thing about Amrun's posts, and I'm not sure it's a big deal. Compared to some players, Amrun mostly steered clear of discussion about MattP's vt claim.

oh gee i wonder why maybe because no one should ever talk about it ever


i'm just checking in really quick to say I exist and see if there's some drastic shift that I need to examine


right now it looks like thad vs. soo, so my vote is 100% where it needs to be.

[Selkies]

GCBC

131
I liked the effort into this analysis of the milkwagon. thought it looked townish.
There are a bunch more analytical posts taking apart Amrum's early arguments with Ghostlin and the pre-rvs joke case on us. wtf someone doesn't start the game hating selkies. That's probably a scum tell in this game.

514
reports on milk's meta and the difference in amount of theory discussion in scum games/this game. The level of effort to dig this up strikes me as town.

533
tears milkshake apart for being followy about jumping away from beliasaurus.

589, 591
Pushback at me for changing vote, and questioning me about my nero read, which resulted in an iso analysis that changed my read.

612
the only thing I don't like about GCBC is the vote and interest in gettng SoO lynched. nearly everything else I either agree with or didn't even notice until they pointed it up. I'm going to cry if they are scum.

[Ms Marangal]

MsM- are you saying you have played a Wheel of time game before, then ? Can you link it please?
can you please link it?

???

No I have not

[Selkies]

iecerint

Iecerint has hardly made an impression on me in terms of effect on the gamescape. But, there are substantive posts in his iso.
curious.

173
milk's posts aren't organic. thinks SoO looks more scummy but no explanation why.

176
reply to ghostlin. distancing from milkwagon?

284
now he votes SoO. Still no reason why SoO looks scummy.

363
calls out SoO to make catch-up posts. Easy way to throw attention without building any sort of case.

382
the case. "The reason I am voting you is that I was sympathetic-but-not-sold on milkwagon, I thought your votepost was probably most questionable-y given milkTown, and I wanted you to post more." with a link to 176.

511
perhaps the mildest call out of all time. He reposts it later.

605
Asks MsM about the PGO Macho Innocent Child comparison to ThAd's soft claim.

Trajectory sucks. vote explanation all but nonexistant. passive aggressive follow-ups. very low post count. Aside from "Milk and Ghostlin look better" I have no idea what this vote was about.

I could vote Iecerint.

[Amrun]

I almost got excited and was going to say I plan to report a read on Iecerint and Matt after tomorrow, esp. Iecerint considering we'll be spending some car time together...

But then I remembered this is not Always On and we're not supposed to talk about the game elsewehre. lolwoops. i'm tard.

[Demon]

See I thought Iecerint was a good choice too but Amruns vouching for him and stuff and I'm ok giving him some time to settle in.

Whoever wants SOO to die show me or link me a case plz. Idk if I buy Thads whole "kill me" spiel and it's still some sketchy ass business BUT. SUpport for marangal lynch?

Unvote, Vote: Ms.Marangal

Iw ill be here in time to shift my vote before deadline if necessary.

[Demon]

Demon-scum
I have already explained this, and my reasons for demon scum still stand. He is still my top pick for lynch and I will move back to him if there is a chance of him happening. His response to "his lynch not going through" sounds like cocky scum.

Im am very timid as scum.

[Amrun]

I never said Iece was town. Currently undecided on that myself. I just said that this fits in with his meta and is not strange in any way, which is true.

[Selkies]

I'll try to read a couple of his games. To me those posts scream noncommital and distant.

[Amrun]

Let's just put it this way... he may be scum, but his posting style is not an indication of this (ie noncommittal and distant).

[Ghostlin]

gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

I'm the first one to agree with you on this point. However, most mafia players that I've seen recently are strong, strong believers in voting with the gut.

I'm all about non-gut information. That said, literally the only piece of non-gut information we have to go on right now is MattP's VT claim.

So until we get more information, gut reads are all I've got. And although I like you as a player, Ghostlin, I think you're scum this game!

---

Speaking of non-gut information, I did notice that this setup has day actions! Interesting, yes? I like day actions. I'm looking forward to seeing some day actions and resultant information.

I'll high light the problems with this post, SOO. The thing I'm most concerned with. Tell me if you have the same concerns I do.

[Ghostlin]

Also, before you go, 'oh my god, this is your fault, Ghostlin', this is Milk trying to root out day actions.