Newbie 1381 Oakhaven is Overrun Game Over

[talah]

When I go V/LA it's not faked.

Thanks, I didn't want that to be taken personally by you but thanks for clarifying anyway. Thanks also for mentioning you *have* seen it used elsewhere, cuz I suspect I have too.

I never said I wanted to 'prevent' a scum flip. I am very paranoid that JMO's vote on Thane is just sitting there. I don't feel that he's hunting anyone else and that his vote is just sitting on Thane. If JMO happens to flip scum and I didn't push *this* case hard enough - I'll be pissed off because I let him slide by halfway unnoticed.

Fair enough I reckon. I have noted you've been a bit paranoid earlier so I hope you'll be happy enough to answer any questions later. Is your vote on JMO right now? Last votecount I can see he doesn't have any. Maybe he needs to splains hisself.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: jmo16mla

[Malakittens]

Sorry it's a touchy subject for me because I have recently had two different games where two different scum people accused me of faking V/LA, but I have also had another game where a town accused me of not being able to get to my computer right away after I posted and accused me of dodging. >.>

No my vote isn't on Jmo.

The reason why I make sure I'm aware of vote counts is because I had a game where a mod accidently messed up the VC and I hammered a town member and was town. Ever since then and being a mod myself I'm aware of VCs

[jmo16mla]

You're saying mafia would be more up to date with the VC than town?

I'm trying to figure out if the amished tell would be in effect here.

As I was looking through earlier to get some opinions I found myself with a +1 or 2 scummy on Luigi... and then realised I'd subbed in for same

[Fropome]

hi guys.

catchup post due asap.

[Fropome]

Pages 1 and 2 are a load of pointless back and forth over RVS.

I like to try to find town and work with them. It makes it harder for scum when there are a group of town players with good reads on each other, working together.
Here are my thoughts running through the thread up to here.

page 2:

VOTE: thane

You haven't taken any stances, placed a vote or anything of that nature.

Honestly, at this point I feel that nothing has happened that is at all scummy enough to deserve a vote, and honestly there is very little in this thread that I can take a stance on. I will go back through again and see if there is anyone that jumps out at me the second time around, but I typically do not vote unless I feel that I would be okay lynching the person I voted... At this point nothing has occurred that would give me reason to vote by that logic.

This was a straightforward reply

Not using your vote is anti town.

Ludgi, how do you feel about thane?

That's bullshit.
And you're one to use this anti-town line when you're not interested in getting town reads and working with town?

To me scum are the ones who like to pick up on "anti-town" play.
Where's

your

pro-town play jmo?

I have played mafia in real life but never via forum, I am used to beig able to rely on expressions and tone. I'm not quite sure where I go from here with progressing advice. Can one of the ICs explain this to me? Also, I fail to see how it is anti town not to use a vote

So do I fail so see. On the contrary I assert that it is pro-town to use your vote wisely to get scum lynched, pressure players and other things. If you have no place to put your vote due to no strong reason to vote, then you'd be anti-town to place it.

You don't have to "take a stand" page 2, after your first post.

jmo might not be interested in finding town, but if this is his version of scum-hunting we have one of the most anti-town IC's imaginable.

Okay now the stuff over into pages 3 and 4 I pretty much agree with what everyone saw was wrong with

luigiwise

opportunist vote.
Role is now

Tala

. Have to see who that plays out meanwhile....

Both asked questions that propelled us out of RVS, pro town playing.

Mala's 15, 50, 93. Analyzing scumreads instead of fostering them to result in possible lynch later in the day
Moth's 39 also.

Asking questions to other people and catches scumtells

Okay tybalt is town.

Herro there replacements (:

Why herro

Happy to replace in, nice to meet you all. At work atm but read through most of this earlier today waiting for a sub conf.; will review this arvo.

For now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

PS - @any IC - how does the preview function work? I can't seem to see the end-formatting of my 'prospective' posts

This is a terrible vote immediately on placing in.

For now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

So...I'm scum because I'm a decent player?

Good question

I think you missed the part where he said maybe too good..

WTF?

Meaning.. If he ends up flipping scum and I didn't push hard enough - ill be annoyed at myself.

So it's kinda like I think he could be scum going after an easy target and I don't want to not push and allow him to slide straight by incase he's actually scum.

I think I need sleep

I think some pushing there is probably best right now. But talah should be the lynch today I think, based on what I've seen so far.

VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

Excuse me, WHAT? I have no idea what this is suppose to mean or how its scummy. Like either you are working on some higher level thinking or this just makes no sense.

HA! Indeed, I think I was a bit hasty with my faux-RVS on Greywing. Looking back over the thread I can see he actually questioned the basis of a vote from Thane on Luigi (which is now me), so that's a major point in his favour, soft as the defence was.

UNVOTE: Greywing

Mala, Mala, Mala. Thanks for being welcoming, but I think this is Freudian, despite (or perhaps because of) needing sleep, and your explanation doesn't make sense:

You already asked me this. I'm not, but

I don't want you to flip scum

looking for an easy target.

You've also placed the Finger of Suspicion (by stating as scum-read), on Luigi (now me).

Lastly, you've been LynchCounting:

Plus Luigi's vote puts Thane at L-2 and as I said it looks like an opportunist jump.

I don't know that Town would bother - it feels a bit wrong to me either way.

VOTE: Malakittens

PS. Preview's working now; must have been technical difficulties.

Lol this is just so fucking lol.

Apologies, EBWODP - quote tags wrong.

Jmo's vote looked like a pressure vote. It didn't bother me, but Luigi's vote did.

Plus

Luigi's vote puts Thane at L-2

and as I said it looks like an opportunist jump.

So really.. timezones notwithstanding.. I need to triple-post for a reaction?

Let's just win the 'quickest knewb game' award by lynching Mala and Thane in quick succession.

(caveat -

@Mala

, you said you were V/LA for a couple of days so I'm prepared to wait for a non-sleep-deprived explanation, if you have one.
)

@Thane

, can you explain please why you think Mala would defend your position; in theory if you are Town. You also promised thread activity in Post 62, which hasn't eventuated yet. Here's your chance.

Prefectly timed hedge: I'll back off if you give me a nice reason that you were tired and not thinking?!?!

There was absolutely nothing wrong, apart from a badly worded sentence which - in context - was pretty straightforward to see what was intended. Besides, I've watched a few games with mala in, when she's been playing with my friends here, and I feel I'm seeing a very definite mala town. In fact, I'm gonna go and say that mala is def town. That's called a town read. Now I'm happy to try to work with mala to lynch scum.

Town: malakittens, tybalt; null; p much all the rest, a few slightly towny and maybe one other scumspect but nothing worth bringing up yet as I want to see how things develop and how other replacements fare meanwhile.
scum: talah
scummy to null to just arrogant: jmo.

When I go V/LA it's not faked.

Thanks, I didn't want that to be taken personally by you but thanks for clarifying anyway. Thanks also for mentioning you *have* seen it used elsewhere, cuz I suspect I have too.

I never said I wanted to 'prevent' a scum flip. I am very paranoid that JMO's vote on Thane is just sitting there. I don't feel that he's hunting anyone else and that his vote is just sitting on Thane. If JMO happens to flip scum and I didn't push *this* case hard enough - I'll be pissed off because I let him slide by halfway unnoticed.

Fair enough I reckon. I have noted you've been a bit paranoid earlier so I hope you'll be happy enough to answer any questions later. Is your vote on JMO right now? Last votecount I can see he doesn't have any. Maybe he needs to splains hisself.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: jmo16mla

Hmm.

jmo, what are your thoughts on the talah slot, and this vote in particular.
also, who are your top scum picks at this point.

I'll not put down a vote until I know what the lie of the land is.
until then UNVOTE: just in case I missed anything.

[Fropome]

Okay I see my predecessor had their vote on mothrax. just want to point out that I'm leaning town on moth and won't be putting that vote back.

[Fropome]

How is ThaneArvsn being neutral?

All that I'm saying is that he's basically ignoring all the events that have transpired without voting anyone or giving any reads.

ThaneArvan,

You are still side-lining though. You haven't placed a vote. Do you have any scum-suspects worthy enough for a vote?

Basically this, so now I'm sort of confused as to why you would ask me if you hold the same opinion...

Town
1. Honey bee
2. JMO
3. Moth

Null
1. malakittens (Town vibes but I don't know why she would ask me a question and then post later the answer)
2. uoyeluri (Good first post but inactive)
3. Greywing (towniest null read right now)

Scum
1. luigilewis (I agree with what other people are saying about him)
2. ThaneArvan

I have played mafia in real life but never via forum, I am used to beig able to rely on expressions and tone. I'm not quite sure where I go from here with progressing advice. Can one of the ICs explain this to me? Also, I fail to see how it is anti town not to use a vote

Same with me, but I've played on forums a long time ago. I think what he is saying is that using your vote shows your opinions and sparks discussion, whereas not using your vote sort of makes it look like you're trying to lay low and slow discussion so that scum will not be found.

hmmm. Hang on, not sure I made sense of this.

there seems to be some blanket rule about using your vote according to people here. fyi: it's bullshit, it's your own theory, and is about as valid as any personal preference of approach, and so as open to criticism or question, while the points offered in defence of it are far from watertight and ignore the additional wifom that town players shifting their votes about makes it easy for scum to do the same. Scum need to move their votes about.

Now, I'm all for rolling a wagon out, analysing and then pulling it back, but you need a few town players to be working together and understanding each other to make strategies like that work, and when players think they don't need to find town in order to play effectively as town, their vote is just a one-off marker with little to no strategic value to anyone.

[jmo16mla]

I didn't even notice he had voted me. Lol

Are you voting me because I didn't have any votes?

[Fropome]

I'll do some isos later today if i have time.

[Fropome]

I didn't even notice he had voted me. Lol

Are you voting me because I didn't have any votes?

uh? is this to me?

I haven't voted you.

[Fropome]

Gah, sorry, completely misread that.

Second sentence is obv at talah. "he" confused me, because talah automatically ticked the "girl" box in my head.

[talah]

Oh-ho, we have some fire!

@Fropome - good analysis. I pressured Mala because of some bad logic and other things earlier, happy to expand after work if you like. I'll also respond to some of the implicit questions in your last post.

@JMO - I am voting you because, having questioned Mala and getting a reasonable response, I too am interested to know why you've parked your vote on Thane and given only one-liners back. You seem to be doing a lot of 'answer a question with a question' right now.

A don't know what the amished tell is, but I have read a thread in which a character by that name played. This is my first game of Mafia. Also I'm a dude, but meh.

[jmo16mla]

You must have missed this?

No. He wasn't contributing, and not taking any stances. Typical of newer scum.

Where am I answering questions with a question? I believe I answered her question, and I questioned her motives for her questions after that.

[talah]

No, I didn't miss a thing. I think it's a weak reason to say that not using your vote is anti-town, and then park a vote and not use it when more information comes to light.

Why, for example, haven't you voted for me? Actually, scratch that. I'm more interested in your forthcoming responses to Fropome's questions.

[jmo16mla]

Do you think he is own?

Why should I vote you?

Also, the amished tell is when a replacement calls their slots earlier player, scummy.
That person, is scum a good bit of the time.

[talah]

'Kay jmo, this doesn't seem to be getting very far. And I find it difficult to read you.

UNVOTE:

Fropome, I like your moxy. But your read of me as scum is absolutely off. Can I ask if you have any previous games I might check out?

I get the impression that I'm somewhat muddying the waters and not playing 'optimally' by placing vote-for-the-reaction-votes, so more straightforward questions and less combative, perhaps. Regarding the 'amished tell', I'd been going through the thread and noting down each player's behaviour post-by-post. I started at page 1 where everyone seemed to be kicking into Luig for his much-maligned 'you replaced someone derp suspicious lol' vote (his very first post, #14). After that he started to get defensive at the cross-examination and I was noting that down prior to realising I didn't need to.

May have to re-think that system

@Honey bee:

what is your read on mothrax?

[talah]

mothrax, likewise, do you have any other scumreads apart from Greywing?

The cast:

• mothrax - the soft-spoken yet self-assured somewhat-inquisitor
  
• Honey Bee - the opinionated inquisitor who's happy to dispense advice
  
• jmo16mla - the stone-skinned questioner.. and questioner
  
• Fropone - the sharp-edged and no bullshit whip with a bad eye for scum
  
• Malakittens - the common-sense and natural emote
  
• Greywing - the '....' scum-reading questioner who finally got an answer out of Tybalt
  
• Tybalt - the listmaker, who needs reasons when you have a list
  
• ThaneAravan - the quotemaster who finally voted.. in retaliation

Regarding Grey, in ISO his posts seem mostly about analysing situational logic and asking reactive questions. He also votes Luigi (me) in post #77:

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Luigilewis889

..and the very next time he posts (#99) he is criticising ThaneAravan for his rationale in voting exactly the same way. That's hmm.. well I don't actually find that scummy, just dissonant. But the fact that it's his only real analysis, I wonder if Grey isn't trying to avoid giving out opinions of his own.

VOTE: Greywing

Don't we have a deadline looming?

@RachMarie-Mayor-Mod

- are we able to have a votecount tally and timer please?

Was going to do it last night but was too tired and crashed instead. VC coming up....Rach

[talah]

Fropome, how would you react on Day 2, if you led the charge for a mislynch on Day 1 with a strong but incorrect read?

[Honey bee]

Okay we have some

interesting

replacements.

Talah, you are all over the place. You start out with some OMGUS reads along with some strange nonsense reasons. You excuse your first vote as just faux-RVS (that was a long time ago and a bad excuse) and your suspicions on thane just appeared outta nowhere in post 116. You also say it with such confidence they're both scum and assumed that Mala would defend Thane, which is a bit baffling to me. Posts afterwards are you backing down of these reasons and then using mala's thoughts as a reason to vote jmo. Do you really think he's mafia for voting Thane or is it to do with his opinion on voting? Because the problem with jmo is for all the questions he's bringing to the thread he hasn't made many reads, or at least if he has reads he's hiding them. I don't see really how "mafia theory" has anything to do with that.

Your revote on greywing doesn't make sense either. Post 77 is criticizing Luigi for lack of content after making posts about defending himself, while post 96 is criticizing thane for making a vote based on someone sheeping someone else as well as based on coaching (which we've already discussed as weak).

At this point, I'd just like you to give me your reads right now, and I'd like to have them without all the muddled double think ("i think this scummy but","this is a good post even though", etc.). I'll re-look at some of your posts which I have a tough time understanding, but right now my thought is that I'd be satisfied with your lynch today.

Lastly, my opinion of Mothrax is that they have so far been asking good questions and their ideas are consistent. I have no reason to be suspicious of them now, but I wanna see their opinions of grey now.

also deadline is on the 16th at 2:24 est or however long this countdown says has time left.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-06-16 14:24:49)

and please don't double/triple post. thanks :).

Fropomo, it's cool that you have your own ideas but you can't do this:

Both asked questions that propelled us out of RVS, pro town playing.

Mala's 15, 50, 93. Analyzing scumreads instead of fostering them to result in possible lynch later in the day
Moth's 39 also.

Asking questions to other people and catches scumtells

Okay tybalt is town.

Please explain for the person that's voting him why this quote makes him town. I see no statement in this quote that couldn't be made easily by made by mafia. Their isn't really anything special about mothrax's post 39.

Also what exactly do you think about jmo makes him possibly mafia? Is it a disagreement on theory or what? because I dont see "not using your vote is bad" is inconsistent with "I don't give town reads". Also I don't see disagreements on theory as a good reason either.

Either way jmo still needs to post some actual opinions. Is "amished scumtell" all you really have to say about Talah? I want opinions on the rest of us.

[talah]

Honestly, I'm swimming a bit and grasping at straws. I really would like to find other town and vote with them but it's not a strong-opinion proposition for me. More of an either-or, eg if HB and mothrax and jmo all want to lynch, they're probably likely to be right and I'm happy with that. I feel like you, Fro, jmo, mothrax and mala might be town but I'm unsure of this and have no real clue with the others. My vote is back on Greywing because he seemed to be asking for more information than he was giving, Thane and Tybalt seem to be lurking, and I've already made lame attempts to pump Mala and jmo for info. I'm also terrified that the lynch train is already on me but don't want to be anti-town by accepting my fate or going stupid about it.

Sorry bout the triple posting. Just enthusiastic and GMT+10. I thought the DL was in 2-3 days per the first post, added posting date to timer.

[tybalt]

Honestly, I'm swimming a bit and grasping at straws. I really would like to find other town and vote with them but it's not a strong-opinion proposition for me. More of an either-or, eg if HB and mothrax and jmo all want to lynch, they're probably likely to be right and I'm happy with that. I feel like you, Fro, jmo, mothrax and mala might be town but I'm unsure of this and have no real clue with the others. My vote is back on Greywing because he seemed to be asking for more information than he was giving, Thane and Tybalt seem to be lurking, and I've already made lame attempts to pump Mala and jmo for info. I'm also terrified that the lynch train is already on me but don't want to be anti-town by accepting my fate or going stupid about it.

Sorry bout the triple posting. Just enthusiastic and GMT+10. I thought the DL was in 2-3 days per the first post, added posting date to timer.

This post really has absolutely no defense. It's just apology.

[mothrax]

Deadline is in 10ish days. All the vitecounts have a countdown tag in them, so they all reflect the actual deadline not the deadline at the time of that post.

As for scumreads other than Grey, I would be down with a Talah lynch today. I was super unimpressed with Luigi's reaction to the RVS stuff and Talah since replacing in has pulled some interesting vote shenanigans. Voted Mala, now calls her town, pulled the whole "quasi-RVS" grey vote, etc...

The rest are all null or town...

JMO is nullscum. I'm not really happy with the way he has been pressuring players, it all seems very forced and half hearted to me.

[Greywing]

So what changed between this post, where you liked my analysis:

HA! Indeed, I think I was a bit hasty with my faux-RVS on Greywing. Looking back over the thread I can see he actually questioned the basis of a vote from Thane on Luigi (which is now me), so that's a major point in his favour, soft as the defence was.

UNVOTE: Greywing

And this post, where all of a sudden, it makes me scummy:

Regarding Grey, in ISO his posts seem mostly about analysing situational logic and asking reactive questions. He also votes Luigi (me) in post #77:

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Luigilewis889

..and the very next time he posts (#99) he is criticising ThaneAravan for his rationale in voting exactly the same way. That's hmm.. well I don't actually find that scummy, just dissonant. But the fact that it's his only real analysis, I wonder if Grey isn't trying to avoid giving out opinions of his own.

VOTE: Greywing

Echoing what others have said, everything Talah has said since replacing in is just making me more confident that I have my vote on the right person.

-His predecessor made no analysis whatsoever, and only complained about people discussing his joke RVS vote.
-Talah has come in, and thrown his vote on about half the playerlist in an attempt to make something stick.

I'm good with lynching this guy today. Not sure if Rach will still count my previous vote since it was before Talah replaced in, so for the sake of clarity:

VOTE: Talah

Votes on a predecessor count as on the successor when a replacement happens after the vote...Rach

[RachMarie]

Vote Count 1.03




Greywing (2) mothrax, talah
ThaneArvan (2) tybalt, Jmo16mla
tybalt (2) Honey bee, Malakittens
talah (2) ThaneAravan, Greywing


Not Voting

Fropome



With 9 it takes 5 to lynch


Deadline is in (expired on 2013-06-16 14:24:49)





Nice to see the activity pick up.... Rach

[talah]

Tybalt! Dear tybalt:

This is the honest answer to a question:

Honestly, I'm swimming a bit and grasping at straws. I really would like to find other town and vote with them but it's not a strong-opinion proposition for me. More of an either-or, eg if HB and mothrax and jmo all want to lynch, they're probably likely to be right and I'm happy with that. I feel like you, Fro, jmo, mothrax and mala might be town but I'm unsure of this and have no real clue with the others. My vote is back on Greywing because he seemed to be asking for more information than he was giving, Thane and Tybalt seem to be lurking, and I've already made lame attempts to pump Mala and jmo for info. I'm also terrified that the lynch train is already on me but don't want to be anti-town by accepting my fate or going stupid about it.

This is an apology for triple posting:

Sorry bout the triple posting. Just enthusiastic and GMT+10. I thought the DL was in 2-3 days per the first post, added posting date to timer.

This might be seen as justification to jump on a wagon later:

This post really has absolutely no defense. It's just apology.

And

that

was a defence.
tybalt: I want to know what you think of jmo, actually, and not because of any subtext but because he needs some attention. Lives are at stake.

@Honeybee: Thank you, strong town read. Unafraid to question and not worried about being seen as coaching.

@jmo: You now have outstanding questions from several people. Pull yourself together man!

@greywing: I'm accusing you to prompt you to make some reads. You have been a good questioner. But if I'm scum, there's one left. Who's that?

@Fro: Goodwork, keep it up. I agree with a good chunk of your analysis (very much including your 'this is lol') and the fact you're not afraid to state opinions. Semi-strong town-read. Look elsewhere.