Newbie 1382 (Game Over)

[jon_h61]

@ Kattaze one last question, how am I trying to "take the heat off" myself. If anything I'd say I'm becoming lynch bait. But we are setting in different chairs, so I guess we see things differently. I sure don't agree with that part of your read though.

[rmpeacoc]

I townread her after her tantrum.

why can you not keep thoughts like this to yourself. Was my complaint not that someone was being extremely rude?

I just don't get why you people feel the need to behave this way. Please try to be civil and respectful. I think I had a right to say what I said.

@Kattaza I would like to hear what you have to say about MY reasoning for my vote. It's not about pressure. It's about the fact that he's completely changing his mind about his read on me and making it look like he never scumread me to begin with.

He DOES claim to have played forum mafia elsewhere. As far as reading people it can't be THAT different.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 1.11

lortaku (4)

: pitoli, Xiao Long, notquitethere, rmpeacoc

JerryArr (2)

: Mr. Flay, jon_h61

jon_h61 (2)

: JerryArr, Kattaze

Mr. Flay (1)

: lortaku

No Vote (0)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

The deadline is Saturday, June 8, at 4:00 PM CDT, which is in (expired on 2013-06-08 16:00:00).

[jon_h61]

@Mr Flay (or anyone for that matter) Could you link me to a good template for playing Mafia?
I have one I got somewhere, but it's kinda lacking. It'd really help to keep games separate, and to not lose track of things.
Thanks in advance

Woo Hoo! I was just reading some of Kuribo's templates for posting in Mafia Discussion! That'd be a wild play style to try! I don't think I could keep it up for a whole game though!

APOLOGIES for fluff, I'll stop now

[Xiao Long]

Xiao mainly because of his strange reason for voting lortaku:

UNVOTE

Lortaku

I think NQT is scummier than Lortaku, but it seems a Lortaku lynch is more likely.

I don't get why Xiao would vote for someone he considers less scummy than someone else.

He's extremely sheepy and really doesn't post enough to justify him really being in the game. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not that put off about mislynching on D1, though I'm not convinced a Lortaku lynch would be a mislynch. He's yet to come up with a real decision that he's made on his own, and he's trying to fly under the radar too much. It's possible that he's just a newbie, but I don't really see newbie's posting this little.

Also, why don't you get why I would vote for someone I see as less scummy? I've already made a case against NQT, but no one seems to really agree, so I might as well go with my second choice who's more likely to be lynched. If Lortaku flips town, I'm perfectly fine with more scrutiny being placed on myself.

[Xiao Long]

He DOES claim to have played forum mafia elsewhere. As far as reading people it can't be THAT different.

Or that difficult, honestly. I was vastly more active in my very first game than Lortaku is playing. If he's unsure, he should just read some other games on this site. He should worry about fucking up, because a lot of people do that. I'd really like to see Lortaku's reasoning for his lurking/sheeping.

[notquitethere]

Kattaze

Long Post Alert

Guys I don't really support this lortaku lynch. [snip]

The primary reason to lynch someone is not to gain information if they flip town but because they are scum. Admittedly, Lortaku hasn't given us much to go on because he's barely playing the game but what he has given hasn't been terribly promising. It is all too easy, if we're not vigilante, to let scum lurk their way through until later days. Are you sure you don't want to vote him because you're afraid to place the hammer? Could you explicate your case on Jon a bit clearer? If you don't offer a strong counter-case, then no one is going to swap to Jon and you're won't be doing anything productive with your vote.

[lortaku]

I townread her after her tantrum.

why can you not keep thoughts like this to yourself. Was my complaint not that someone was being extremely rude?

I just don't get why you people feel the need to behave this way. Please try to be civil and respectful. I think I had a right to say what I said.

@Kattaza I would like to hear what you have to say about MY reasoning for my vote. It's not about pressure. It's about the fact that he's completely changing his mind about his read on me and making it look like he never scumread me to begin with.

He DOES claim to have played forum mafia elsewhere. As far as reading people it can't be THAT different.

Normally when I play forum mafia elsewhere, it's with people I've played multiple games with, so I know their playstyle better. I get that that's not an excuse, and I should learn to glean from an isolated game, and I'm genuinely trying.
I did scumread you at first, but that was based on a gut feeling, which I retracted because I had no substance for my accusation.
As for my lynch, if I flip town I would look at people bandwagoning me, and tbh I would look at Kattaze too. If I were scum, I would know who is and isn't town, and I would strongly defend a townie to make myself look more pro-town. Not to say that I believe he is scum, but his defense of me seems really strong (not that I don't appreciate it, I do!) to the point where it feels a tiny bit suspicious. But in the end it boils down to WIFOM, so I would look at Kattaze closer to the end of the game if he is still around, and I would be wary of that.
Also, lynching me wouldn't give you guys as much information as one of the other potential lynches of this day. (Because I'm inactive, sorry)

Once again, I'm really sorry that I can't be as active as I would like to be.

[JerryArr]

The thing with a lortaku lynch is, yes, we won't get a lot of information from it, but a lot of players, myself included, believe he is, if not the scummiest, then not helping, and maybe hurting, town. If we're getting super close to the deadline, and if there are no objections, I'd be willing to hammer, but we're not at that point yet.

[Kattaze]

Responding to questions

@ Kattaze Are you an alt, or new to Mafiascum? It doesn't really matter, and if you don't want to answer, that's OK too. I'm just curious, but if I was a betting man I say you were an alt.

That would be a good bet since this is an alt account (sort of). I first encountered mafia early last year, and made an account on mafiascum called glynman. I played two games between February and March, one as mafia and one as a VT. I got pretty close to the end of the games but unfortunately couldn't finish them because the whole forum went down for about a month (if I remember correctly). After that I went travelling in Europe for 4 months so I couldn't play at all. When I returned home I had all but forgotten about mafia, then about a week ago I was bored and I decided to start playing again. I made this new account because I want to start fresh, and I won't be going on the other one again.

@ Kattaze one last question, how am I trying to "take the heat off" myself. If anything I'd say I'm becoming lynch bait. But we are setting in different chairs, so I guess we see things differently. I sure don't agree with that part of your read though.

Well since you're not actually voting for him, you would look less suspicious if lortaku flips town. I was trying to point out that you've still done a lot to promote the case against lortaku, even though you haven't voted, and this shouldn't go unnoticed.

@Kattaza I would like to hear what you have to say about MY reasoning for my vote. It's not about pressure. It's about the fact that he's completely changing his mind about his read on me and making it look like he never scumread me to begin with.

He DOES claim to have played forum mafia elsewhere. As far as reading people it can't be THAT different.

My mistake, I should have gone back and read what he said about previous experience. Still, he is unfamiliar with how it is played here and has trouble playing with complete strangers. As for your reasoning for voting lortaku, I guess I would be a bit critical. I don't really think he was trying to make it look like he never scumread you, it looks more like he was just persuaded by what other people had said in your favour, and didn't have a convincing case against you anyway.

Kattaze

Long Post Alert

Guys I don't really support this lortaku lynch. [snip]

The primary reason to lynch someone is not to gain information if they flip town but because they are scum. Admittedly, Lortaku hasn't given us much to go on because he's barely playing the game but what he has given hasn't been terribly promising. It is all too easy, if we're not vigilante, to let scum lurk their way through until later days. Are you sure you don't want to vote him because you're afraid to place the hammer? Could you explicate your case on Jon a bit clearer? If you don't offer a strong counter-case, then no one is going to swap to Jon and you're won't be doing anything productive with your vote.

I think you're spot on here. I obviously haven't made my case against jon clearly enough so I will go into more detail later. I don't have time right now but expect something in the next 12 hours.

As for my lynch, if I flip town I would look at people bandwagoning me, and tbh I would look at Kattaze too. If I were scum, I would know who is and isn't town, and I would strongly defend a townie to make myself look more pro-town. Not to say that I believe he is scum, but his defense of me seems really strong (not that I don't appreciate it, I do!) to the point where it feels a tiny bit suspicious. But in the end it boils down to WIFOM, so I would look at Kattaze closer to the end of the game if he is still around, and I would be wary of that.
Also, lynching me wouldn't give you guys as much information as one of the other potential lynches of this day. (Because I'm inactive, sorry)

If you flipping town would make me look scum then I'm pretty much screwed lol! As I mentioned, if you flip scum I will look very scummy for defending you so much, and now if you flip town I will somehow look scum as well!

Needless to say, I don't share your view. Trying to look at my play from someone else's view, I doubt whether scum-Kattaze would try to stop the lynch on a townie at L-1, and make a long and detailed post trying to prevent it. Scum-Kattaze would most likely pile on more reasons to lynch the townie or just stay quiet because it looks like he would have been lynched anyway.

[Mr. Flay]

@Mr Flay (or anyone for that matter) Could you link me to a good template for playing Mafia?
I have one I got somewhere, but it's kinda lacking. It'd really help to keep games separate, and to not lose track of things.

I have no idea what you're even asking for. A playstyle guide? There are some decent ones on the wiki.

If you're asking for something to help keep track of games, I often track votes in a spreadsheet (yeah I'm that guy) and will sometimes do a 'scum chart' of who has said what when and how scummy I think it makes them. It's tiring though, and I haven't had time during this game during summer work season.

[Mr. Flay]

Something's been bothering me about you(Mr. Flay), I can't put a finger on it ATM. I guess it's what people call gut. I feel like I should be voting you, but I don't know why, and it's driving me crazy. I'll ISO you to see if I can either quell or verify this odd feeling.

I hope you can think of it and write it up before Day One ends. I tend to get wagoned at least once a game (often on the "lynch Flay just in case, if he's scum we're in trouble" model), and I'd rather get it out of the way earlier than later.

In any case, yes, that unvote of Xiao makes more sense now, thanks.

Also he has entirely neglected to say anything about notquitethere, Jerry, or me; so he either has town reads on all of us or one of us is a possible partner.

I like the way you think. You should post more often.

These don't really seem like compelling reasons to lynch someone who has only made 9 posts, and only the last 3 (maybe 4) of them have something that you might actually call content (please ISO him and see for yourself).

I'm not sure I agree with the lortaku wagon either, but I really am not sure what you think we SHOULD do with somebody who doesn't post content. Ignore them? That's no way to win for Town. Wagons are one of the best way to pressure content. If he still doesn't provide content and we lynch him, then we've eliminated a weak/null slot. If he steps up and contributes, then we can at least analyze/discuss that.

Xiao, that "I'd rather vote the easier lynch" is REALLY scummy. If you make a good case on NQT I'll consider it because he's been kind of absent as well, but right now lortaku is the weakest link. I'd actually rather lynch Jerry or Xiao, as previously mentioned... also the people on the lortakuwagon are giving me scumhives. I kinda agree that we need a better case, but there's so LITTLE to go on.

lortaku, I really want your next post to be longer. Start talking your thoughts out loud - if you die and flip town, your opinions will be some of the ONLY things we can count on to be trustworthy (not true, just honest). If you start talking, there's a much better chance people will move on to someone who is more actively scummy. Not talking will NOT get you out of a lynch on MafiaScum.

If you're scum you're welcome to self-vote to end the pain now, of course...

[Xiao Long]

I doubt whether scum-Kattaze would try to stop the lynch on a townie at L-1, and make a long and detailed post trying to prevent it. Scum-Kattaze would most likely pile on more reasons to lynch the townie or just stay quiet because it looks like he would have been lynched anyway.

I can definitely see the scum motivation in trying to stop a lynch on a town member. Even one at L-1. If he flips town, it would give you town cred. You could spend the time up until the lynch laying out reasons why he's town. You don't see why it's a plausible scum tactic?

Xiao, that "I'd rather vote the easier lynch" is REALLY scummy. If you make a good case on NQT I'll consider it because he's been kind of absent as well, but right now lortaku is the weakest link.

How is it scummy? I've said why I think NQT is scum, and no one aside from myself seems willing to vote for him, so voting for my second choice of scum is purely logical. Especially when we only have two days left and it doesn't look like we'll get much more activity from either NQT or Lortaku.

[Xiao Long]

I'd also like to point out that neither Lortaku nor NQT have really tried to make a case against anyone in this game. NQT is tunnel-visioned on me and has given shoddy reasons for why I'm scum, but that's it. He had a post with reads a while back, but I don't see how his reads wouldn't have changed by now (mine certainly have since I made my post).

Also,

Flay

, you said my vote was scummy. What, then, do you think of NQT's vote for Lortaku in post 260? -

"Still, we've got a three-way tie and of the three, VOTE: Lortaku is the most suspicious (mostly for his earlier lurking)"

[Mr. Flay]

Well yes, sometimes you have to go for the compromise lynch. But you don't TELL people you're going for the easy lynch... which, paradoxically, is perhaps a point in favor of you being town.

:pedit: Uhhh, NQT has his flaws, but voting for the person he states is most suspicious of the three being voted isn't one of them. He thinks you're more scummy (or did in 199), but no one is voting you right now, and I wouldn't feel comfortable helping drive a wagon on you at this late stage, and with your recent improvement in helpful posting.

[Mr. Flay]

(boy, is that post going to come back to bite me if NQT flips scum someday)

[Xiao Long]

The reason I pointed that out is because that's pretty much the only thing he's said about why Lortaku is scum. He made a small point about him in his reads - that he was lurky - but he hasn't really made a case on him. He hasn't made a case on anyone besides me. I'm just wondering why no one seems to notice that.

[Kattaze]

I can definitely see the scum motivation in trying to stop a lynch on a town member. Even one at L-1. If he flips town, it would give you town cred. You could spend the time up until the lynch laying out reasons why he's town. You don't see why it's a plausible scum tactic?

It's definitely a plausible scum tactic, but not in our present situation. It's day 1, so it's always going to be hard to figure out who is scum, and lynching a lurker is probably quite common on day 1, so it would be a pretty easy scum move to heap more dirt on someone like lortaku to get a lynch or even to do the hammer themselves. I bet if I had come out and agreed with everyone about lortaku and his scummy lurking, then hammered him, I wouldn't look that bad tomorrow even if he flips town because he looked like such an obvious lynch.

I can't see scum trying hard to prevent an easy (perhaps a policy) lynch on Day 1, when there's only just over two days to go. It would just make things much more difficult for the scum team than they need to be.

But to answer your question, in many circumstances it would be in scum's interest to stop a lynch on a townie, just not in our current circumstances, in my opinion.

[Kattaze]

Case Against jon

As I've mentioned, I would like to lynch jon today, and since most of you don't seem to be convinced I am going to try to briefly summarise why I think we should. I will put the case against him in spoiler tags because it is quite long and I'm sure some people won't read it anyway. After that I'll give a summary of the benefits town gets for lynching him like I did with lortaku.

(Note: I know it's tiresome, but it would help you understand where I'm coming from if you actually read the quotes I've included. I tried to keep them to the minimum necessary to make a decent point so please do your best!)

Spoiler:

I'll start by quoting what I first said about him in #232:

jon_h61

Looks scummy to me at this stage. In #85 he over-exaggerates Xiao's "defiance" in the bit he quoted. Also found his post #87 slightly suspicious. He alleges that NQT's hypothical in post 44 was a trap, which is a possibility, but that seems like pretty advanced tactics for a newbie game. I didn't like it how Jon automatically ruled out the (much more likely) possibility that NQT's question was just flawed, instead claiming that it must have been a trap.

This isn't really enough to justify a lynch, but his conduct since then has made him look even more scummy. Most obvious is his post in #233 which is a pretty big overreaction to my scumread of Mr Flay:

tl:dr: I think Mr. Flay is the most scummy player so far, and wouldn't be surprised if he and jon were in cahoots. I would be comfortable lynching Xiao because so much has been said about him and knowing his status would reveal a lot more about all of those comments.

You say Mr Flay is scummiest, and that we are in cahoots. But you'd rather lynch Xiao? You do realize there are only two scum, I'm sure. So lynching someone who you say is Town is awfully scummie IMO.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kattaze

I caught him out on this straight away and said:

That's not very fair. I never said I'd rather lynch Xiao, I just said Xiao might be a good lynch because a lot has been said about him and we could look at those comments in a new light when we know his status (plus he hasn't been very helpful to the town so far and acted pretty obstructive early on in the game).

I should add that you seem overly defensive of Mr. Flay here, especially when I've just made a case for him being scum. The fact that you felt the need to vote for me looks like an OMGUS, and an attempt to protect your scumbuddy.

Mr. Flay then pointed out that that would have been an incredibly obvious defense of a scumbuddy, which is true. It's up to us to decide whether it was a slip or he was genuinely scumhunting. Despite Mr. Flay's reservations, I think it was a slip and I think at least Xiao agreed since he called it a terrible move.

The next suspect move came in #248:

I also would like to hear more from Jerry, do you have any thoughts about who we should lynch?

Jerry is the only person Kattaze asks their opinion of.

Also I note that Fear was voting Jerry before he unexpectedly left. Possible bussing?

This must surely look strange to anyone who has been closely following Fear and my play. The accusation of bussing against one of the towniest slots in the game is, at least, a very strange move for a townie to make. At worst, it's a pretty obvious scum tell. (If you think it's inappropriate for me to call myself towny-looking then use your own judgment of me instead)

Also in #248 jon blamed his suspicious attack against me on his wife. Whether you find that convincing or not is up to you.

In #258 jon tries to heap more dirt on me and Jerry, which I don't really mind. If he is scum then that is a pretty obvious move, if he flips town it will be more interesting - you would be entitled to be more suspicious of me and Jerry (another good reason to lynch him?). Of course, he unvoted me in that post because a few people had mentioned how townie Fear/me look and it would be suspicious if he had his vote stuck on someone like that.

In #264 he tries to beef up the weak case against lortaku. I have mentioned the significance of this in previous posts so I won't dwell on it now except to quote my main objection:

This just seems like an exaggeration to me, I think he's got a bit of tunnel vision on lortaku, maybe trying to manufacture a lynch without actually participating himself to take the heat off if/when lortaku flips town.

So, what are the benefits we get from lynching jon?

If Scum

We eliminate one of the mafia (obviously). Everyone he has attacked will look a lot less suspicious. That means lortaku, Jerry, myself and Xiao to a lesser extent (he attacked Xiao a bit at the start of the game, but I'd say that was fair given how Xiao was playing). Probably lortaku and me would look the best, given how much I've been lobbying for his lynch (the opposite is true too - if he flips town I will look terrible). Anyone who jon defended would look more suspicious (and anyone who defended him). This means Mr. Flay and I think rmp and maybe NQT said something in favour sometime (will have to look more into that later as I don't have time now).

If Town

Pretty much the opposite of what I said above. I will have a big target on me for all this work I'm doing to have him lynched. Also his reads will be a lot more credible as they would have been honestly made. This means lortaku, Jerry and maybe Xiao would all look worse. If we do lynch him and he flips town, I would wager that at least one of the people who voted for him would be scum as well, since it's getting close to deadline and they would surely rather get a lynch going than waste an opportunity to have a townie killed.

So there you have it, my case against jon. I hope you find it as convincing as I do and help me lynch him because he is surely scum!

[Xiao Long]

As I said before, his vote was a horrible move and dropped him down to null-scum for me. After that he blamed his wife for the wording, but the wording wasn't what I was talking about, I meant the vote itself was a terrible move. He's a third scum suspect for me, but not as scummy as NQT and Lor, imo. I don't think he's a likely D1 lynch, but D1 lynch + NK will either look very good or very bad for him.

[Mr. Flay]

The reason I pointed that out is because that's pretty much the only thing he's said about why Lortaku is scum. He made a small point about him in his reads - that he was lurky - but he hasn't really made a case on him. He hasn't made a case on anyone besides me. I'm just wondering why no one seems to notice that.

Probably because there's not much to say about lortaku BECAUSE he's done little but lurk. Half of his posts are delaying tactics from early D1. So we have...what, 4, 5 posts, with less than 5 paragraphs to go on? He's an unknown quantity, and I'm not at all sure he'll step up his game D2+.

[pitoli]

Still unsure.
Kinda wish Lor would replace out :/

[jon_h61]

JerryArr
So far he strikes me as pretty clean. I don't like the fact that he has three votes already (until I unvoted him) because I'm not sure what he's done wrong, other than putting Xiao into L-1 which I think was an innocent mistake.

After Kattaze's unvote this is his first mention of Jerry. If you notice everyone else gets at least a little suspicion, but not Jerry. No, he's as clean as a whistle. No suspicion whatsoever. His other reads are there 232 for all to see.

Gut voting/suspicion doesn't bother me (I don't have much more than a gut feeling about you and jon) but your persistence could be revealing (note: that doesn't mean you must be scum).

I also would like to hear more from Jerry, do you have any thoughts about who we should lynch?

Before I get misconstrued I'd like to add that I'm not sure about Mr. Flay or Jon being scum, they are just at the top of my list of suspicious people. Please don't make out like I'm confidently announcing their guilt, I'm just sharing my suspicions with everyone so we can make a better decision.

Kattaze's next mention of Jerry, prods him to say more, and nothing else.

If town:the people who most strongly contributed to his lynch will look slightly more suspicious. I would exclude pitoli and Jerry from this because they were the first to vote for him, and did so for pretty transparent reasons and obviously intended to help the town by getting him to talk more. Xiao, NQT, rmpeacoc and jon would come under more scrutiny. Xiao mainly because of his strange reason for voting lortaku:

He says we should exclude Jerry (and pitoli) from any suspicion should Lortaku flip Town.

If scum:
If lortaku flips scum, then jon, rmpeacoc and NQT will be a lot less suspicious. It would remove a lot of my suspicion for jon, because I think he has excited the case against lortaku to a degree, and I doubt he would do that if lortaku was his scumbuddy. I will add that if lortaku flipped scum, I would probably look a lot more scummy, since I am trying to stop his lynch.

I really don't like that he has all these scenerios where if one person flip one way, then someone has to be a certain alignment. If by chance Kattaze is Town, he's setting up the next Day's lynches, and I don't think he's as good at it as he likes to project. Unless he's scum setting up mislynches.

If Town
Pretty much the opposite of what I said above. I will have a big target on me for all this work I'm doing to have him lynched. Also his reads will be a lot more credible as they would have been honestly made. This means lortaku, Jerry and maybe Xiao would all look worse. If we do lynch him and he flips town, I would wager that at least one of the people who voted for him would be scum as well, since it's getting close to deadline and they would surely rather get a lynch going than waste an opportunity to have a townie killed.

I really don't care for all these pre-planned out scenarios, because things aren't always so cut and dried. If it were Town would win a lot more. I remember a game where Yosarian was our IC. He argued walls back and forth the whole game with TraceyLyn. On the last Day of the game I told the two that in my opinion Yosarian had won the argument, then I hammered him for the win. My point is, that all these scenerios are only useful if the people flip according to his plan. But if he's scum and gets the flips he wants, then I guess the plan would work out for him.

I can't see scum trying hard to prevent an easy (perhaps a policy) lynch on Day 1, when there's only just over two days to go. It would just make things much more difficult for the scum team than they need to be.

Here's another scenerio where he tells us what scum wouldn't do. You know what scum want to do? WHAT SCUM WOULDN'T DO!

I think if Lortaku flips scum, it shouldn't preclude anyone from being scum.

[Mr. Flay]

Less than 48 hours to go. Disappointed with the posting right now from our major suspects.

Going to the gym before it closes... will post again before midnight.

[rmpeacoc]

Freaking out because there was a tick in my car today. Gross.

@Pitoli instead of trying to get a newbie to replace out why not try to help them.

Also if someone wants to hammer they should claim so that lortaku claims. If you don't want to hammer don't fish for a claim please.