Newbie 1387 - Game Over


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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:56 pm

Post by waynegg »

I was asking for two of your games with each of those alignments...then I read your wiki and saw you played in your first game on April 20th of this year. Also you may want to make sure it's ok to have links to your ongoing games in your wiki, especially when you are directing people to your wiki to see how you play. It looks a lot like circumventing the rule about discussing non-completed games to me. I don't think you have the experience necessary to be guiding anyone on how to play, but again that's not my call. I would suggest that you not allow your first SE (semi experienced) label to give you an authority complex and to realize you still have much to learn. I know I do, and I've been playing constantly since 2008.

It also looks like you may be a bit overextended with so many games taking place simultaneously. Sure, you'll get quantity of experience, but you won't get quality and your game will never improve. That's evident in ISOing you in your handful of completed games. You've drawn a scum card here and you're over playing it, which is fine because it helps my wincon.

The links I provided are very relevant to the 90% discussion. I could have just directed you to look at the End D1 results in the completed forums in the first place. However, without knowing why and how those results happen you could just chalk that up to coincidence. The MS wiki article gives you the how; the psychology article gives you the why. Refusing to see that helps neither your point nor your game.

Now an easier one for you :p
In post 36, TheIrishPope wrote:Great that you're active, Starstorm. Here we go.
1. RVS is Random Voting Stage, where we vote randomly as the title suggests. I voted wayne randomly, yes, but now I have reason to believe wayne is scum.
2. He cared because he saw me as a threat. He might be Town, acting scared, or scum, scared that I voted him. Guess which one I'm thinking about. I wouldn't say struck gold... well yeah I would. You should vote Wayne with me.

3. If you read the thread, RVS and OMGUS were explained. That is scummy to me.
4. Wayne didn't vote you. MP5 voted you. You have to read the thread again. Don't say things like "I promise I'm good." It makes you look scummy.

The situation you proposed is called bussing. It is a strategy used by scum to gain Town credibility. If you want, you can check my scum games and town games to see how I play. You will see I don't do this as scum.
Quote where I ever defended or cared about your vote on me. I'll help you out...I didn't.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:01 pm

Post by MP5 »

What inconsistency?
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:03 pm

Post by TheIrishPope »

lolwat
I explicitly stated the IC knew more
It is fine to put ongoing games
I signed up for that amount of games, so yeah, irrelevant
Now focus on the game, scummy scum scum

Your vote on me suffices to proof you are worried
And you are defending because you are trying to get the vote off... aren't you?

MP5, look at my posts, you'll see what holes I've pointed out
just the tIP
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:34 pm

Post by waynegg »

In post 46, Starstorm wrote:Wayne, it seems difficult to establish a read on TheIrishPope after he posted one line. I'd say the vote seems a little hasty. But I like your point about how party mafia is way different from forum mafia.
I work very quickly in finding accurate reads, particularly scum reads. I'm not infallible of course, but by this point I'm certain he's scum every post he's done since I voted him has added more and more evidence against him. I'll go through each one, starting with that first one.

Also, if you want my games so you can ISO me, I'll be happy to post a few.
In post 9, TheIrishPope wrote:And I know waynegg is scum. Eww.
This is what I voted on. Both of these are scum tells, but I was only jabbing at him because I know that he is tasked with trying to help brand new players. The first sentence is speaking in absolutes. "Eww." is AtE, or appeal to emotion. At this point my vote was random. Who he voted is irrelevant to me, just the tells which I didn't at that point put any real stock in.
In post 12, TheIrishPope wrote:Alright. I will point out various errors in waynegg's #10 post:
1. I always introduce myself as an SE in the manner I did.
...
Cool, a Mafia virgin. Welcome! Your IC and SEs are here to help you.
According to his wiki, this is his first SE. So 1 is a lie, thus LaL (lynch all liars)
You should also never underestimate your opponent.
In post 17, TheIrishPope wrote:Oh, and isn't "hate" AtE? Herpaderp.
This is OMGUS in a bad way. It is purely self motivated. Town posts further the interest of the collective, scum posts further the interests of oneself.

And no, I really hate digging through theory for hardheaded people. It's time consuming.
In post 31, TheIrishPope wrote:I don't need someone to tell me I'm pretty. I know that.
If waynegg brought the 90% card on the table, he better justify it.
In post 32, waynegg wrote:And I will. This is a bit lighter of a read on theory, in case anyone would like some help combing through page one. Theory is tedious and time consuming for me.

http://www.sixprizes.com/forums/threads ... wolf.8554/
In post 33, waynegg wrote:At least I'm getting to start on it about an hour sooner than I thought :)
In post 34, TheIrishPope wrote:I see no mention of the 90% you were talking about.
In post 38, TheIrishPope wrote:
In post 37, waynegg wrote:I don't care about the vote on me.
Above, you can see scum being nonchalant and casual.
Wayne, will you please answer my remark about the 90% and not ignore me? That was scummy, too.
As you can see here, he's pressing for evidence provided at his request and to his terms, completely ignoring the fact I told him it was going to take me a little while.

This is also only self motivated because it help the town zilch
In post 38, TheIrishPope wrote:Above, you can see scum being nonchalant and casual.
Wayne, will you please answer my remark about the 90% and not ignore me? That was scummy, too.
More OMGUS

So to iterate all his scum reads

Speaking in absolutes
AtE
Defending a singular RVS vote on him
OMGUS
Self motivated posts
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:37 pm

Post by waynegg »

Oh yeah one scum read I forgot to iterate

He lied about "always" starting his SE's with that kind of intro. LaL.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:39 pm

Post by TheIrishPope »

1. This is not my first SE game, check again
2. You can't call people out for things you yourself did
3. OMGUS does not mean what you think it means
So yeah, no case
just the tIP
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:06 pm

Post by waynegg »

^Gotta love when perceived authority reaches head! Do you have any idea how absurd it is to have a 2 month player telling someone who made all the mistakes you're currently making 6 years ago when they first started playing?

1. If it isn't your first SE, then it's one of your active games because you weren't SE in either of your completed Newbies. Ongoing games are off limits to talk about or use, so what exactly are you talking about.

2. Quote where I did anything you've done. ANYTHING.

3. I'm
pretty
sure I have a firm grip with what game terms mean and how they apply to game play.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:08 pm

Post by waynegg »

And on 2, apply perspective of the intentions of whatever you
mis
quote.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:17 pm

Post by waynegg »

I really don't want to discourage new players with a bunch of advanced scum hunting techniques and lose them. They're trying to grasp the basics and this much can be overwhelming.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:34 pm

Post by SuperMafiaMan »

waynegg wrote:I really don't want to discourage new players with a bunch of advanced scum hunting techniques and lose them. They're trying to grasp the basics and this much can be overwhelming.
Discourage? Nah. I read everything here loud and clear, and I have never played anything like this before.

What I smelled earlier seems to have dissipated (or I still can't put my finger on it). There doesn't seem to be anything unnormal about the back and forth between wayne and TIP, just two players trying to prove that he is right. I feel no need to put myself on either side of it, however, that will just be starting a wagon for others to hop on, which could lead to mislynch.

Back on TIP's proposition for an RVS vote from post 26, I think I'll do just that.

VOTE: mizsu

For being among the 3 most inactive players.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:51 pm

Post by waynegg »

SMM- I'm not trying to prove myself right, I'm advancing my wincon. What I was doing with Pope is referred to as 1v1. Every time he made a legitimate scumslip I pointed it out, and there were so many. My one vote doesn't lynch him.

Once RVS has ended, it's not wise to go back to it. I'll leave that for IC to explain in detail, but basically it gives scum a place to hide. It's also a scum tell. I dont think you're scum so don't take it that way. My advice right now would be to choose whoever between Pope and I you find scummiest and start asking questions. Look for something you find suspicious in the answers you get and expound.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:06 pm

Post by waynegg »

May I get my question answered now, please? What kind of puppy is everybody and why?

These are my current reads


Fence Climbing Puppies (Null)
Frequency
Miszu
MP5 (SE)
startransmission (IC)


Poopie Puppies (Scum)
TheIrishPope (SE)


Cuddly Puppies (Town)
Voodoo Lady (SE)
SuperMafiaMan
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Post by SuperMafiaMan »

My Current Reads:

Town: TIP, wayne, Voodoo, Starstorm

Null: Frequency, Miszu, MP5, startransmission

I am not hiding behind RVS, I'm just trying to get something out of someone who hasn't even bothered to post yet. So maybe RVS is a completely inaccurate term for what I did, as it was much less a random vote and more a vote targeting an inactive (or lurker, if you want to throw a scummy term out there, but I don't think I have seen Miszu on the online list every time I checked it, meaning he may just have genuinely just not come to check on the thread yet).

It is 2:00 AM where I live and I need to get my sleep. Don't expect me to turn up until after noon tomorrow or, technically, today (central standard time) but don't be surprised if I turn up earlier either.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:01 pm

Post by waynegg »

That's the right idea, but just note there are many reasons for inactivity. With it being Father's Day weekend they could still be clueless that the game has even begun. But more involvement is definitely preferable!

We have some stuff to work off from those who have been active though, so what do you think about starting there?
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:21 am

Post by Voodoo Lady »

In post 30, MP5 wrote:Girls! You're both pretty! Can I go home now?
You think I'm pretty? I'm flattered. :0)
Seriously, this is cool and all that you're getting discussion going, but to continue with arguing over statistics to prove "I was right", "No, I was right" isn't going to help us, and might just scare off some newbies that don't want to get bogged down in a theory/who is right discussion. It's not alignment indicative, can we bring it back to who wants us dead and why?
I'd argue that this argument actually is going to kickstart the discussion. Sure, it's not going to go anywhere, but it forces everyone to take a stance on it. Think of it this way-- imagine we are researchers studying the indigenous species of the Everglades, and we come across a large bog where two crocodiles are fighting. Jumping into the quagmire isn't going to assist our research, but standing near the edge of it and observing everyone's reactions is.

You do get some town points in my book for trying to break it up, though.
In post 39, MP5 wrote:Starstorm, your hypothesis that they might both be Mafia *might* be true, but in all likeliness is probably not.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's practically impossible for them both to be scum. The day typically ends with two competing bandwagons forming on the players with the most dirt on them, so the two scum going after each other like this is a lose-lose scenario for them.

It's less easy to determine if this is a town-scum argument or a town-town argument, though. From a purely statistical perspective, assuming they're not both scum, Popeyes and Founteggs of Wayne have a 60% chance of both being town... which isn't particularly reassuring.

Anyway, I do think both of their arguments have some merit.
In post 42, waynegg wrote:
I told you it would take me some time to research and put it all together, did I not? I also said just 46 minutes ago that I was just then getting to start that research. You sure are pushing hard for a wagon in my absence though. Scum tell #4 (same as slamming someone who is V/LA) According to the clock, we have many days to come to an informed decision. Why are you trying to rush the vote? Scum tell #5.

Anyhow...


90%

As Voodoo Lady pointed out, when you roll a D9 you have a 77% (77.78% actually, but yeah) chance of not hitting two specific numbers. However, we are not dice. We all have a basic human need of belonging.

http://www.saywhydoi.com/belonging-why- ... belonging/

As such, going against the tide is contrary to fulfilling that need. Once a wagon forms on a townie, scum will hop on to further their win condition and making the wagon grow. Please read the bandwagoning section here

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells

Once the wagon grows to an appropriate size, the need to belong kicks in and a mislynch happens. If you need to see this in practice, go to any of the completed games forums and pole the End D1 results. It won't take you long to see that 90% may even be a bit conservative.
I was under the impression you had an actual theory post to back that figure up. Understand that when you post an estimate like that, the immediate assumption is going to be that you're pulling the figures out of your ass unless you post a link to the contrary. I will agree with you that the overwhelming majority of newbie games start with a mislynch, though.
In post 45, TheIrishPope wrote:*cough* MP5 is voting inactives *cough*
*cough* I'm rushing people because you're scum *cough*
First-- good catch. I'll discuss MP5's actions and their implications at the end of the post--

W/r/t the second point, though, I think you and Wayne are both missing something here.
In post 53, waynegg wrote:
In post 46, Starstorm wrote:Wayne, it seems difficult to establish a read on TheIrishPope after he posted one line. I'd say the vote seems a little hasty. But I like your point about how party mafia is way different from forum mafia.
I work very quickly in finding accurate reads, particularly scum reads. I'm not infallible of course, but by this point I'm certain he's scum
every post he's done since I voted him has added more and more evidence against him.
I'll go through each one, starting with that first one.
Bolded for emphasis.

Maybe you and Pope haven't realized this yet. You two aren't voting for each other because you two have said the most suspicious things. You two have said the most suspicious things because you two are voting for each other. You two both have twenty posts in a game with sixty-four posts total. Of course you two have said more suspicious things.
In post 9, TheIrishPope wrote:And I know waynegg is scum. Eww.
This is what I voted on. Both of these are scum tells, but I was only jabbing at him because I know that he is tasked with trying to help brand new players. The first sentence is speaking in absolutes. "Eww." is AtE, or appeal to emotion. At this point my vote was random. Who he voted is irrelevant to me, just the tells which I didn't at that point put any real stock in.
I think you're reading a bit too deeply into an RVS vote... everyone here precedes their RVS with something along the lines of "X is totally scum."
In post 12, TheIrishPope wrote:Alright. I will point out various errors in waynegg's #10 post:
1. I always introduce myself as an SE in the manner I did.
...
Cool, a Mafia virgin. Welcome! Your IC and SEs are here to help you.
According to his wiki, this is his first SE. So 1 is a lie, thus LaL (lynch all liars)
You should also never underestimate your opponent.
You're both wrong here. O'Popey's first game as an SE was 1386, where he began the game not with an introduction, but with a contextless RVS vote.
In post 59, SuperMafiaMan wrote:
waynegg wrote:I really don't want to discourage new players with a bunch of advanced scum hunting techniques and lose them. They're trying to grasp the basics and this much can be overwhelming.
Discourage? Nah. I read everything here loud and clear, and I have never played anything like this before.

What I smelled earlier seems to have dissipated (or I still can't put my finger on it). There doesn't seem to be anything unnormal about the back and forth between wayne and TIP, just two players trying to prove that he is right. I feel no need to put myself on either side of it, however, that will just be starting a wagon for others to hop on, which could lead to mislynch.

Back on TIP's proposition for an RVS vote from post 26, I think I'll do just that.

VOTE: mizsu

For being among the 3 most inactive players.
Why vote for someone who's inactive? Like, seriously-- what's your motivation here? Miszu is not suddenly going to wake up in the middle of the night and make a post here just because you voted for him.

Now then, about MP5's lurker vote.

VOTE: MP5

I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind.

1) What was the motivation behind that vote for Starstorm in your first post? There was no need for RVS by that point.
2) Why place your vote on Frequency? Voting for a lurker isn't going to help us find scum. This leads into
3) Why ignore everything that Wayne and Popey are saying about each other? If you think they're both town, wouldn't it be significantly more productive to refute the points they're both making?
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:57 am

Post by waynegg »

VL

My vote was initially RVS for reaction.
Of course
the reasoning was paper thin at the time, just as any RVS vote is. It remains because of his reaction to it. Defending against a singular RVS vote as aggressively as he did, and with so many inconsistencies and tells, I doubt I'll be changing that vote.

Would you like some of my completed games so you can meta me?
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:06 am

Post by waynegg »

In post 64, Voodoo Lady wrote:I think you're reading a bit too deeply into an RVS vote... everyone here precedes their RVS with something along the lines of "X is totally scum."
Which is exactly what I did with my RVS
In post 10, waynegg wrote:And speaking in absolutes, probably means Irish Pope is scum trying to mislead you with his SEesness...

VOTE IRISH POPE


I would like to share with you my favorite quote...
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

~Albert Einstein
RVS rarely turns up anything credible (90% town lynch D1), so why not try something different?
His reaction to that vote, however...
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:11 am

Post by Voodoo Lady »

In post 65, waynegg wrote:VL

My vote was initially RVS for reaction.
Of course
the reasoning was paper thin at the time, just as any RVS vote is. It remains because of his reaction to it. Defending against a singular RVS vote as aggressively as he did, and with so many inconsistencies and tells, I doubt I'll be changing that vote.

Would you like some of my completed games so you can meta me?
I'm not saying you don't have your reasons for voting, and I'm not saying your vote isn't justified. What I'm saying that is that the quantity of inconsistencies and tells is primarily due to his posts making up a third of the topic.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:18 am

Post by Voodoo Lady »

In post 66, waynegg wrote:
In post 64, Voodoo Lady wrote:I think you're reading a bit too deeply into an RVS vote... everyone here precedes their RVS with something along the lines of "X is totally scum."
Which is exactly what I did with my RVS
In post 10, waynegg wrote:Your RVS post
His reaction to that vote, however...
Post 9 was an RVS vote. You said that his RVS vote contained both appeal to emotion and speaking in absolutes. You say you weren't serious about it, but given that you're still charging him with those two allegations in 53, it's pretty clear that you're still using his RVS vote (as opposed to his reaction) as part of his argument.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:23 am

Post by waynegg »

Nah, I was just pointing out all of the tells I picked up from onset. I guess you're right though that it wouldn't be fair to hang on to those two, since it was his RVS. Says nothing about all the others though.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:23 am

Post by startransmission »

Oh dear. Page 3 and the wall o' text posts have already begun.

Hey guys, I'm your illustrious IC this game. All that really means is that I've played a few games in my day, and I should be considered a resource for newer players who have questions about terminology and strategy etc. It should be pointed out that I have an alignment, and will play to win. It should also be pointed out that this is my first time playing in the Matrix6 setup. It seems fairly straightforward, and loads better than the accursed 2of4 abomination.

I have lightly skimmed the posts so far. The weekends are insanely busy for me, and my activity will reflect that. While I should always have a post or two a day, I work in the restaurant industry, and thus Friday-Sun will always be a difficult time of the week for me. I will do a complete read tomorrow (my Saturday).

Vote: SuperMafiaMan


Get an avatar, please.
W--L--A as town
24--14--0
W--L--A as scum
14--4--0
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:36 am

Post by waynegg »

Welcome to the game start

Now VL, you seem to want to discuss MP5. In his 30 and 48 he seems to be trying to put a halt to 1v1. I took this a new null. Do you see that differently?
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:39 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

UNVOTE: waynegg
just the tIP
"TiP has a silky, foreign voice"
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:57 am

Post by Starstorm »

I'm starting to buy the idea that Irish and wayne are two obstinate townies yelling at each other that they're right. I don't know if I agree with MP5 being mafia yet, but I have to go. I'll read/contribute more when I get back this afternoon. A thought: Couldn't the mafia be two people who are lurking, trying not to say anything incriminating and instead fly under the radar? I know if I was mafia, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:03 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

Starstorm, regarding your lurker comment, yes. They might be laying back and watching town lynch town. We have a policy lynch to fight that: Lynch All Lurkers. However, in regards to activity, Newbie games are different. They are pretty quiet.
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