Newbie 1390 -- Game Over

[TheGarantula]

Woah, not sure what happened to my internet there but could the mod please delete the extras? T-T

[goodmorning]

AGH NO TRIPLE POST WHY

Cabd, if you don't want to be lynched you'll probably want to make a coherent and convincing case on someone else.

[JasonWazza]

Cabd, if you don't want to be lynched you'll probably want to make a coherent and convincing case on someone else.

Or you know, quit posting fluff.

[bestwillcui]

Wait why'd you post that twice?

[bestwillcui]

Oops, sorry, didn't see that.

Here are my current reads:

JasonWuzza: I read his meta and he does play this style, so he is probably town. However, he is trying to point out that this is the way he plays when he is town, which seems a bit strange.

Darq's replacement rgxv or something: not much said, but did unvote. No read.

goodmorning: I am getting a town read, null at worst. This is because of the scumhunting done and that it looks genuine.

Fegelein: plays like goodmorning, kind of. Same as what I said about goodmorning, but at a little lesser degree.

Derivan: appears a little scummy and lurking quite a bit, but I don't understand why Fegelein is pushing for a lynch on him.

Guyett: has some scummy traits, but more town aspects. Null

Cabd: There seems to be a huge wagon on him and I kind of understand it, but it seems a little over. However, he does look a little scummy

TheGarantula: plays like pro-town, but sometimes his reasoning is a bit flawed. However, he does not appear particularly scummy to me.

The reason that I am not voting anyone is because I don't see anyone THAT scummy.

[Guyett]

then vote for someone to put pressure on them

[Fegelein]

Vote for your scummiest read, it's helpful for the Town.

Also, don't reveal votes as pressure, or they lose their purpose.

[Derivan]

Still waiting to hear from ryhx. Will provide responses to posts and provide an updated read list after.

In the meantime.

@GM
How do you explain suggesting a second day vote deal with the scummiest person on your readlist?

[Guyett]

I'm off to work now but I should post a detailed reading of people based on peoples changing opinions over the last 2 days.

[goodmorning]

best's readslist is wishy-washy at best. At this point in the day you ought to have at least one read you'd be comfortable voting. That said, it looks newbTown to me. Does anyone disagree?

Also, don't reveal votes as pressure, or they lose their purpose.

BRB, LAUGHING MYSELF TO DEATH
didn't you

just

do that a page ago?
But this is overall a correct statement.

@GM
How do you explain suggesting a second day vote deal with the scummiest person on your readlist?

I wouldn't be voting Cabd if that hadn't changed. I still think Feg is scummy; I find for me the ends justify the means. Besides all that you're playing pretty scummy as well, and lynching you isn't out of the question. And besides THAT we get 2 free mislynches assuming that all NKs go through. We've still got them, and I think voting through Cabd, you, and Feg would mean, if not outright success for the Town, we'd be in a very good position to win.

It's interesting that you're the only person who picked up on that though.

If ryhx hasn't posted anything of substance within the next 24ish hours I'll go ahead and do my elaborative readslist then.

[JasonWazza]

goodmorning - Town read, pretty helpful scum-hunting and all.

goodmorning: I am getting a town read, null at worst. This is because of the scumhunting done and that it looks genuine.

Someone is backpedaling onto the same read as someone who is being seen as town.

Not to mention that he is still scummy as fuck.

Someone hammer this scum already?

[JasonWazza]

Actually this will be a post where i give the general statements he uses.

Here are my current reads:

JasonWuzza: he is probably town. (reason why i wouldn't be town which is bogus)

Darq's replacement rgxv or something: No read.

goodmorning: town read, null at worst.

Fegelein: Same as what I said about goodmorning, but at a little lesser degree.

Derivan: little scummy and lurking quite a bit.

Guyett: Null

Cabd: he does look a little scummy

TheGarantula: plays like pro-town.

He calls 2 people scummy but says he won't vote because they aren't "THAT" scummy.

And the rest he tries to give a reason why they are NULL instead of TOWN, even when he gives logic that would make them town.

Guess who doesn't have town reads?

Guess who wouldn't want to vote?

Answer to both is SCUM

[TheGarantula]

JasonWuzza: I read his meta and he does play this style, so he is probably town. However, he is trying to point out that this is the way he plays when he is town, which seems a bit strange.

I wouldn't use meta to say that someone is probably town. It's too WIFOM-y. Also, if I'm not mistaken he pointed out his own meta when people complained about his playstyle as a point. How is that scummy?

Derivan: appears a little scummy and lurking quite a bit, but I don't understand why Fegelein is pushing for a lynch on him.

This says more about Fegelein than it does Derivan.

Cabd: There seems to be a huge wagon on him and I kind of understand it, but it seems a little over. However, he does look a little scummy

Cabd only has one vote on him.

TheGarantula: plays like pro-town, but sometimes his reasoning is a bit flawed.

Example?

@bestwillcui: Do you think you could actually provide evidence/quotes for your reads? Just saying someone acts scummy does nothing. Scum wouldn't want to be overly specific, (if they didn't make a big case for scum than it won't take a big case to back off later) but town wants evidence to prevent mislynches.

@fegelein and goodmorning: What makes you two so sure that bestwillcui is newbtown as opposed to newbscum? You guys are an SE and IC so I'm sure you have good reason to think so. If you both think it would be a mis-lynch then I'd like to know why.

P-edit:

Someone is backpedaling onto the same read as someone who is being seen as town.

I don't know if I could even call this backpedaling. He's gone from popular, vague opinions to other popular, vague opinions. T-T

[Fegelein]

Also, don't reveal votes as pressure, or they lose their purpose.

BRB, LAUGHING MYSELF TO DEATH
didn't you

just

do that a page ago?
But this is overall a correct statement.

Hey, I learnt from my mistake.

As for Cabd, I can agree he's scummy too, I would list reasons, but it would just be parroting tbh. I still find Dev to be worse though.

@Jason: You're over-reacting, and that makes you look really opportunistic. While I sort of see where you are coming from, it doesn't change the fact that he's probably a newb towny who's indecisive and a little bit worried about his appearance, but not in a scummy way.

@Garan: I'm trying to look at his motives for the stuff he does, and they're more likely to come from newb Town than newb Scum. Also, it's kind of a gut feeling too. Also read Jason.

[goodmorning]

@Gar: From the readslist in particular I would personally have expected more null-leaning-scum reads. Instead he's got about 2 Towns, a leaning Town, a pro-Town, 2 Nulls (one for lack of activity), and 2 leaning Scums. For all intents and purposes that looks proportionally like a readslist a wishywashy newbTown would have. NewbScum usually would wishywashy their way to "well everyone looks kinda scummy, I don't really know" and top that off with a vote on one of the top wagons.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.05

L-1 bestwillcui - 4 - Guyett, JasonWazza, TheGarantula, Derivan
Cabd - 1 - goodmorning
Derivan - 1 - Fegelein
Guyett - 1 - Cabd

Not Voting: bestwillcui, ryhx

Deadline: (expired on 2013-06-27 02:37:53)

V/LA: ...

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[ryhx]

Finally caught up. My wall of text, as promised.

best

:
His posts read more newb town then scum to me. He was lurking even after being coached in thread not to lurk. He's still not voting depite a lot of prompting that that's very scummy. I feel like if he was newb scum he'd be trying harder to not be so scummy. Either way, I'm willing to let him live a little longer to see him post more.

cabd

:
I didn't have a problem with his fake out at the start, but his jumping on other people for fairly small things while not following through (he never did tell us what he was going for with the activity tell exactly) with anything (except guyett) along with the way he picks at one player at a time gives me bad vibes. Also I dislike anyone who calls upon their meta as proof. Potential scum.

derivan

:
His posting style reads weird and I can see why some think he's scummy. The somewhat mechanical play is odd as is the repeated emphasis on how he is being logical about his reads. I feel like he is a newbie town going through a playbook though, and his scumhunting, though maybe misled by flawed logic at times, is genuine. Needs to post more though.

fegelein

:
this may be dragging up dead horses to flog, but i though his gambit in rvs seemed scummier then cabd's. Firstly, the way he piggy-backed on cabd's gambit, secondly (as pointed out by goodmorning), the really poor execution of it. How was he expecting for an L-2 with just 'semi-serious'? How was that supposed to trigger a reaction from Derivan? And giving up?
It was a poor gambit and it seems more like scum trying to stir shit rather then scumhunting from town. Though he has excused it away as burnout, I will have to go back and check whether he's executed better gambits in other games before I take his word on it. I'll leave his as potential-scum until I do.

goodmorning

: Maybe its the nature of an IC, has a feel of more commentor then participant. I don't have a good read on her, but please answer this: up to 185 you've mostly been on Feg's case, but then you suddenly throw out a vote for cabd with no explanation and cabd hadn't posted anything since your previous post. Why and what happened? You continuing implying cabd's scummy in your subsequent posts but you never give any reason for it.

guyett

: the newbie who's not really a newbie. That he feels the need to keep mentioning that he's town is pinging me. He is also constantly badgering people to post entire read lists, which is a little annoying, and maybe he's scum trying to feel up other people's positions. Because he's mostly been non-committal about his reads, see 144 where he basically ended with 'but it could be anyone'.

jasonwazza

: I don't think his aggressive play is indicative of anything other then style. Don't have much to say other than as a whole his posting feels pro-town and that's where I'm putting him.

thegarantula

:
He's really combing posts to find scum, I'm in agreement that this guy is town.

tl;dr

: guyett, fegelein, goodmorning, cabd are on my scum list in no particular order.
But the more I think about it, the more I want to know what's up between goodmorning and cabd so

VOTE: goodmorning

I'll like to hear your case on cabd, thanks.

[ryhx]

Other question: Why do we leave guys at L-1? Isn't it too easy for scum to quick hammer him? Especially with 5 days left on the clock, there's plenty of time for voting still. But it seems a common thing to do here.

[TheGarantula]

If someone got quickhammered without being allowed to respond I think the voter would be pretty quickly bandwagoned the next day, if even only out of policy.

[goodmorning]

Other question: Why do we leave guys at L-1? Isn't it too easy for scum to quick hammer him? Especially with 5 days left on the clock, there's plenty of time for voting still. But it seems a common thing to do here.

Garantula's basically right about this, will respond to your wall when I get time. Very good questions, I feel a Townread coming on.

[TheGarantula]

@Jason: You're over-reacting, and that makes you look really opportunistic. While I sort of see where you are coming from, it doesn't change the fact that he's probably a newb towny who's indecisive and a little bit worried about his appearance, but not in a scummy way.

@Garan: I'm trying to look at his motives for the stuff he does, and they're more likely to come from newb Town than newb Scum. Also, it's kind of a gut feeling too. Also read Jason.

@Gar: From the readslist in particular

I would personally have expected more null-leaning-scum reads.

Instead he's got about 2 Towns, a leaning Town, a pro-Town, 2 Nulls (one for lack of activity), and 2 leaning Scums. For all intents and purposes that looks proportionally like a readslist a wishywashy newbTown would have.

NewbScum usually would wishywashy their way to "well everyone looks kinda scummy, I don't really know" and top that off with a vote on one of the top wagons.

This is a fair point, but it seems a little WIFOM-y. I guess I didn't really think about the lack of vote from a newb-town perspective though.

best

:
His posts read more newb town then scum to me. He was lurking even after being coached in thread not to lurk. He's still not voting depite a lot of prompting that that's very scummy.

I feel like if he was newb scum he'd be trying harder to not be so scummy

. Either way, I'm willing to let him live a little longer to see him post more.

That makes sense I guess, but I feel like some of his posts and scumreads could have been meant to distract from the wagon that was forming on him. That said Feg's post could explain those.

I see where you guys are coming from regarding best, though I'd like to hear more from him. I doubt he'll be lynched very soon anyway, given the current state of the thread, so there should be plenty time to pin him down

[Guyett]

ryhx - nice logical post, some of it is reiterating what others have said and some of it is new. Its refreshing to get a new point of view. More in depth on some people and a bit light on others. regarding your comment on me being non-committal is me just being realistic, I've said who I suspect is scum but in reality the scum aren't always the people who come across as the scummiest. some people are very good at hiding their true alignment and others are town just playing a bad game. Asking for readings is useful as they can give away scumtells.
I am getting a light townread here
You made a very interesting observation regarding Best at L-1 and why he hasn't been hammered.... If he is town scum would have hammered him by now unless 2 of the 4 people voting for him are scum. If he is scum then the other scum could have already voted for him to blend in or they are unwilling to hammer him. I'm leaning towards him being scum as if he was town he'd be gone by now imo.


bestwillcui - still getting scum readings here... but not as bad as I was before. Some people have made good points towards him being newbtown and Jason has also made good points on him being scum. I don't want to be tunneled on him so I'm keeping an open mind. I'd tend to agree with Jason regarding the wishywashy readings, there is not a lot of substance there. There is still the scum lurking which is flashing red lights at me too. Still getting a scumread here, albeit a lighter one.


Derivan- Made a good point regarding GM. I'd like to hear more as you've been quiet lately.
Null read at the moment


TheGarantula - getting the biggest townread out of everyone so far. Playing a logical game with substance in your posts which I approve of and you haven't made any contradictory posts that I am aware of. Some of your posts are copying others but I think as you are new you tend to listen to some of the more experienced people here which could be both good and bad (especially if they are actually scum hiding it well).


JasonWazza (SE) - My opinion of you hasn't really changed. Still light townread off you, I've been looking at some of your other games and your playing style would tend to indicate town. However there is a niggle in the back of my mind that you might be playing us all for fools. You have asked us to view your meta if we want to find out your playing style and you could in theory play the same style as one of your townie games while actually being scum. That being said it would be a big move to do to throw your meta out a bit and I doubt you would waste such a big move on a newbie game.


Cabd (SE) - Still getting a scum read off you. You also seem to be focusing all your attention on me. I find it very odd that after I post about my gambit in post 183 and specifically say that due to the slightly anti-town nature of some posts I thought it would be perfect for scum to start a wagon on me and proclaim me as scum, Cabd started coming after me with an appalling case for me being scum. Cabd is supposed to be semi experienced and if he was scum by coming after me he is one of 3 things;
town acting the maggot
really stupid scum
smart wifom scum
misuse of terminology in your crusade against me and the general belligerence with absolutely no interest in protown posting or scumhunting backs up the scum theory

Fegelein (SE) - I don't really have anything new to add to previous reads. Started off light scum but moved into null. I still have you as null


goodmorning (IC) - I have been thinking about my original town reads on you and feel I may have been a bit rash. Right now I would not be surprised if you flipped scum but I have you null at the moment. I think the fact that you have done your job as IC by being quite helpful with terminology and strategy to us newbies without really doing much scumhunting or being helpful towards the game. There have been lots of promises of read lists and whatnot with out any thing coming which is firing up the flashing red lights for me. Null read for now until you post a good readlist

[goodmorning]

goodmorning

: Maybe its the nature of an IC, has a feel of more commentor then participant.

It's not really IC-me, just me in general. Defense is kind of a specialty of mine, and at times I tend to neglect my offense. It's a bad habit.

I don't have a good read on her, but please answer this: up to 185 you've mostly been on Feg's case, but then you suddenly throw out a vote for cabd with no explanation and cabd hadn't posted anything since your previous post. Why and what happened?

Let me try it this way: it's not about anything Cabd did in the interim, it's about Feg.
Or in other words, it's not that Cabd went down the ladder, it's that Feg went a bit up.

You continuing implying cabd's scummy in your subsequent posts but you never give any reason for it.

Don't I?

Spoiler: I actually do.

Now with BONUS CASE EXPANSION

Oh, and the rest of you newbies. One thing that was in the links but I feel it's wise to re-iterate. Never EVER EVER self-hammer. No matter how much you want to "show us all" it's against your win condition. It has a few niche valuable uses as scum, but if you do it as town, you're essentially claiming scum.

This could be worded better, and I would argue that it has a few niche valuable uses as Town too, but this is essentially true.

But WHY ARE YOU MAKING THINGS EASY FOR ME, HUH?

Translation: "you seem to be setting yourself up in that spot where you look helpful but actually aren't scumhunting at all."

Activity tells are kinda... meh.

Translation: "activity tells are lazy at best and scummy more often than not."

By my 155 Cabd is a solid close second scumread.

@Cabd: Really? Activity tells and now "you"? This is weeeeeiiiiirrrrrddddddd

If you are correct, and this shift in pronouns means he is scum and I am his partner, why would he use the wrong pronoun?

Note that he fails to answer this question or indeed most questions starting at roughly this point.

Okay, you're totally wavering caught scum now, guylett.

Scum wants day to be over as soon as possible. Scum likes the night. I'm town. I frigging hate the night. It's useless for my win condition. Night is the scum phase, and entering it this early is dumb and scum motivated. Hence, you're claiming scum.

Here he oversimplifies the "when should Town lynch" arguments, further using it as an excuse to call himself Town AND trying to use these scumtells rather than real scumhunting.

Oh look, unasked-for self meta.

Yet another light scumtell. I expected better.

[/quote][/quote]
Self-meta,

especially

in a newbie game, is a minor scumtell in my books.
Especially in this case, as Cabd seems to be well aware of his own meta and remarkably consistent in regards to playstyle.

In post 213, the amount of nitpickiness...

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask them.

Expanded readslist now in progress.

Fixed quote tags, and unborked the ENTIRE PAGE. ~~NS

[goodmorning]

What... What even... MY TAGS

I swear it previewed TOTALLY NORMAL

[Guyett]

Total scumtell