Newbie 1382 (Game Over)

Mr. Flay · Post Post #525 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:25 am

Right, so this exchange was dumb as anything:

In post 513, Mutleyddmc wrote:Last reads for you all

Scum is in Jon, flay and jerry

In post 515, jon_h61 wrote:@ Mutley There are only two scum in"Road to Rome" games.

As if the perfectly reasonable read of Muttley's statement isn't "the scum are part of [jon, Flay, Jerry]".

In [post=#5041256]502[/post], jon_h61 wrote:That is a real question to you, what do you think you'll get from my flip?

This is looking pretty scummy in retrospect (motivation: get any reads on me and my partner out there before Night so I can plan for them tomorrow). In the same post he discounts deadTown reads as useless....whatisthisidonteven. Actually wait I see an alternate way to read that. jon care to explain?

I like Kattaze a lot more for Town today, and jon a lot less. Not entirely surprised at the pitoli NK, but I'm worried that me still being alive means my reads are ALL off.

Zaicon · Post Post #526 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:35 am

Vote Count 3.1

jon_h61 (1)

: Kattaze

No Vote (6)

: JerryArr, jon_h61, Mr. Flay, notquitethere, rmpeacoc, Xiao Long

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is Thursday, July 4 at 6:00 PM CDT, which is in (expired on 2013-07-04 18:00:00).

notquitethere · Post Post #527 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:17 am

Ouch! A mislynch followed by the cop killed in the night. On the bright side we know exactly which set up we're in-- and we know there is a doctor left alive. Doc, whatever you do don't claim now or even breadcrumb: lay low and protect town.

VOTE: Jon

In post 512, jon_h61 wrote:OK you did give reads, And you're claiming VT.

I'm going to go ahead and hammer.
VOTE: Mutley

You asked Mutley for his reads, he said he had reads and claimed VT, then you voted him for giving his reads and claiming VT. It seemed from your responses that you actually thought it likely that he was town yet you hammered him anyway. We weren't tight against the deadline, there was a whole week left to go, and you threw the hammer down. Now, I'm not saying this makes you insta-scum (hell, scum usually aren't bold enough for that sort of thing), but you got a wee bit of explaining to do.

Jerry

Reading back, the best explanation is either Pitoli investigated Xiao or was roleblocked. She would have placed a lynch vote if she'd discovered RM was scum.

Xiao

Didn't think I'd say it, but you're looking a hell of a lot more town than before. Who's your top scum picks?

jon_h61 · Post Post #528 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:26 am

Yeah, I deserve to be lynched. My play the day of the lynch was bad. I had a very limited time to make my posts, so I decided to just go ahead and go for it. When Mutley started saying lynch him so he could get better reads, I thought it sounded fake, so I voted him.

I've said all along that if I look scummy vote me, and right now I can see a good case being made against me. I think scum can easily use me as a big distraction deflecting attention away from them. I don't think it's going against my win condition to suggest lynching me. My time ATM (til I can fix my laptop) to scum hunt is going to be very limited, scum can easily blend in with Town making their cases against me, and I've done some crappy plays.

I won't apologize for lynching Town though. It was a wrong choice, but I didn't do it all by myself.

I still can see a Kattaze and Jerry scum team.

JerryArr · Post Post #529 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:42 pm

Yeah, looking back, I have to agree that it was unlikely that RMP was investigated by Pitoli as scum.

In post 528, jon_h61 wrote:I've said all along that if I look scummy vote me

If we lynch you now and you're town, the best the town can do Day 4 is be at 4 (including doc) vs. 2, which, if we mislynch, would require a whole lot of luck to even make it to Day 5, as it would require 3 doc saves in 4 days. The worst would be 3 vs. 2, where a mislynch is game over. So if you're town, offering yourself isn't a great move. Right now, I think you are fairly scummy, but I like RMP as scum more.
VOTE: rmpeacoc

Mr. Flay · Post Post #530 (ISO) » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:33 pm

jon how many times have you been lynched so far (on this site)?

Zaicon · Post Post #531 (ISO) » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:45 pm

VOICE OF MOD:

In Post 531, jon_h61 wrote:@ Mr. Flay Just once. All my experience with Mafia is here on this site, but we -Deb and I- used to go to "Murder Mystery Dinners" a long time ago that were vaguely like mafia.

I have time today to actually read and analyze the game, so later I'll make longer posts with actual thoughts in them.

If I remember correctly, this is the only post that is missing.

(It's the only one I have in my cache, anyway.) Since there's still a little under 11 days left, I will not be extending the deadline.

rmpeacoc · Post Post #532 (ISO) » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:18 pm

o look it's back! Thanks Ziacon for paying such close attention!

Kattaze · Post Post #533 (ISO) » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:10 pm

I swear Jon made a longer post trying to refute some of the points I made against him. I remember making a mental note to reply later when I saw it.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #534 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:56 am

Thanks Zaicon. If jon made something longer of a reply, I'll wait for him to come back and re-make the post.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #535 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:50 am

Also, I hope the other four players have gotten a courtesy prod. We're on a short schedule now, folks.

Jerry, can you reiterate why you like rmp for scum ore than jon? You haven't posted anything about it since Day started.

rmpeacoc · Post Post #536 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:39 am

yes, Please do explain. I'd certainly like to refute your arguments... because just saying you're voting me and giving no reason certainly isn't helping town at all. I'd rather they see our exchange.

P.S. That break was nice. I appreciate not having to deal with bullshit for a couple of days.

Xiao Long · Post Post #537 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:04 am

Aw, I too wrote out a longer post that got lost. =/

Anyways:

Notquitethere

I don't have anyone that I'm currently pretty confident are scum, I need to reread the thread. I'd say Rmp and Jon are the scummiest atm, but I'll reevaluate later.

Jon

Why didn't you just wait to hammer until after you didn't have a limited time to post? It's not like we were nearing deadline.

jon_h61 · Post Post #538 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:41 am

@ Kattaze I did, I don't have time now to try to figure out what I said. Did anyone else read it?

@ Xiao I should have,but when Mutley started saying hammer him so he could get better reads, I thought it sounded fake and made a judgement call knowing I wouldn't get back on that day.

I'll be back in a couple of hours to post more.

Yea, we're back!!!

JerryArr · Post Post #539 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:28 am

First of all, thank you to Zaicon and the behind the scenes people, much appreciated.

Okay, now here are my reasons why I believe rmpeacoc is scum.
1) She has tried to get around statements that she has said and been called out on using semantics. Day 1, she says she will flip town if lynched (69), but then says she did not say that lynching her would be a mislynch (156). Okay, maybe that's a miscommunication, although I'm doubting it. Day 2, though, she and Pitoli discuss when rmp suspected lortaku. In 353, rmp says lortaku was "always" her #1 scum*, and that in 355, said she was "on the lortaku wagon all along", but in 370, admits that she didn't vote lor until she finished with Xiao, and in 428, says she wanted Xiao lynched before a lortaku lynch.

*- I should mention that in 245, where rmp first brings up the possibility of lortaku being scum, she says she didn't like lortaku townreading her, while previously scumreading rmp for using emotion. In 179, though, lor does not have any scum reads, and in fact compares the Xiao/rmp exchange to a previous game, and saying it was a vote from the gut.

2) Appealed to emotion, like, a lot. I'm not against playing this game emotionally, but at a certain point, it gets to be overwhelming.

3) Wanted to deflect conversation away from her at various points during the game (Pitoli in 161, Xiao (and presumably everyone else) in 412, Xiao and Pitoli in 416).

I also don't like her suggesting she should be the lynch, but Jon did that, too, so that's not really a difference between the two.

rmpeacoc · Post Post #540 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:36 am

The only thing I really want to say to you is again, I will reiterate that yes, if I am THAT scummy, I should be the lynch. If you don't think I should say that it is your problem.

why should I be the lynch?

Because it will help town in the long run. Clearly I'm clouding your judgement and so I'd rather be lynched when you have the option for a mislynch than possibly lynch town today and then have everyone want to lynch me on lylo because they think I'm scummy.

Think about it. It makes a lot of sense. I don't know how else to explain it.

However. Notice that I'm not hammering myself. Why? Because I want a majority of town to be lynching me if I am to be lynched. The last thing I want is for the scum to be on me and to hammer myself.

JerryArr · Post Post #541 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:05 am

In post 540, rmpeacoc wrote:The only thing I really want to say to you is again, I will reiterate that yes, if I am THAT scummy, I should be the lynch.

The thing is, though, that if you're town, what you're doing is automatically not scummy.

In post 540, rmpeacoc wrote:If you don't think I should say that it is your problem.

I don't think you should straight-up say "I should be the lynch", because doing so gets it in our heads that "Maybe she should be the lynch, after all, she's given up trying to find more worthy candidates".

In post 540, rmpeacoc wrote:why should I be the lynch?

Because it will help town in the long run. Clearly I'm clouding your judgement and so I'd rather be lynched when you have the option for a mislynch than possibly lynch town today and then have everyone want to lynch me on lylo because they think I'm scummy.

That's the thing, though, if you're lynched, and you are town, tomorrow is most likely going to be a situation where a mislynch loses the game for us. That's hardly a long run.

In post 540, rmpeacoc wrote:However. Notice that I'm not hammering myself. Why? Because I want a majority of town to be lynching me if I am to be lynched. The last thing I want is for the scum to be on me and to hammer myself.

Yeah, I think that would make sense, but I'm still not a fan of the "lynch me if I'm scummy, please!" tactic.

rmpeacoc · Post Post #542 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:14 pm

Town can be scummy. It doesn't make them scum.

Also not lynching me today will do the same if we lynch a townie. I'm stuck here because I feel like what I've said will help if I am lynched... everyone has had interactions with me and it WOULD help town to find the scum.

It's better than lynching another townie and having everyone all over me tomorrow. Not to mention scum will be pushing on me hard tomorrow. In my head it makes a hell of a lot of sense and I don't know why you aren't seeing it.

You also make it look like I'm begging you to lynch me, which im not.

Also my apologies... I said I could have hammered but I must have gotten this game mixed up with another... I just looked back again and there is only one vote on me. Mix up on my part.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #543 (ISO) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:45 pm

Thing is, I can't see a scum motivation for rmp to act out in that way, except maybe for the Appeal to Emotion stuff, which appears to be a nulltell for her. I don't like ANYbody saying "I should be the lynch" because it's defeatist and gives scum an out, but it's not really the sort of thing scum are likely to say unless they're in a really good position and know it won't actually happen. Even now we still have 5:2 Town advantage.

jon, when you get back can you answer my question to you in post 525, top of this page? It's basically what will determine if I vote you or not, so take it seriously.

notquitethere · Post Post #544 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:33 am

RM

, please don't roll over and die. You might think that town will get more information from your lynch. I've tried that ploy as town in a game before-- what happened was scum stayed off the lynch and further suspicion fell needlessly on town. It was a poor play. You can't trust your fellow players to read the right lessons from your deaths. But look, if you are mislynched we're going to need some pretty solid reads from you to work with. Who are your top scum picks?

rmpeacoc · Post Post #545 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:04 am

Jerry, You say I'm rolling over and dying? Why?

If I wanted to 'roll over and die' I would definitely not be arguing my point.

However as I've said I'd rather not lynch town and then have everyone lose the game by lynching me tomorrow. Maybe I should say it differently.

Here:

If your top scum read is not me and they get lynched today and flip town, will you go after me tomorrow? If so, lynch me today.

If you don't think you'll go after me tomorrow if there is a town flip, don't lynch me today.

Better?

Scumreads... tbh... at the moment I'm really not liking

Jerry

and I can see a lot of scum motivation behind his vote on me. Go ahead and say it's because of his read on me, and it probably is, but he seems to refuse to look at others, and he doesn't support his reads at all until he is asked to. Maybe I should look up some of his past games just to see if he's like this as town. In fact what really frustrates me is the way that he voted in a post where he's talking to someone else, almost as if to retract from the fact that he's voting.

Flay

and

Xiao

are reading town now more than ever.

I'd love to believe

Kattaze

is town but his post that the wagon on Mutley was bad keeps me leery. Only scum really know this... and I find that it's typically that say these kinds of things, as though they were so sure someone was town.

However, I can also see where

jon

could be scum based on Kattaze's case on him in 420 and 518, BUT I don't like that he points out that Jon was Mutley's top scumread... Honestly I'm not sure that matters at this point as he did a very poor job of supporting himself and his ready.

and as for you,

NQT

, you get town points for the hypotheticals and for sticking behind them when you were questioned, but I'm still unsure, so I'll call you null.

rmpeacoc · Post Post #546 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:14 am

One last thing... does anyone notice that Jerry talks to me in 544 as though I'm town, yet he's still voting me.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #547 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:43 am

541 is notquitethere, but he is indeed talking to you. Did you mean Jerry's 541?

notquitethere · Post Post #548 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:07 am

RM

, I think you've got me confused with Jerry-- I don't think you're scum and I'm not voting for you. Saying that you should be the lynch is rolling over-- it's what Mutley did and can you honestly say it helped town?

JerryArr · Post Post #549 (ISO) » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:50 am

In post 545, rmpeacoc wrote: Scumreads... tbh... at the moment I'm really not liking
Jerry
and I can see a lot of scum motivation behind his vote on me. Go ahead and say it's because of his read on me, and it probably is, but he seems to refuse to look at others, and he doesn't support his reads at all until he is asked to. Maybe I should look up some of his past games just to see if he's like this as town. In fact what really frustrates me is the way that he voted in a post where he's talking to someone else, almost as if to retract from the fact that he's voting.

Unfortunately, the only other (completed) game I've played as Town was at the other place, and I only lasted one Day. (game is here. This is my first game on MafiaScum.

And yes, I think you're confusing NQT's 544 with me.