[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[ferretlover]

Why can't town mislynch

even if it is 6v3v3 the town hasn't lost yet.

both scum factions are trying to kill off the opposing faction

[JasonWazza]

Why can't town mislynch

even if it is 6v3v3 the town hasn't lost yet.

both scum factions are trying to kill off the opposing faction

Always assume worse case scenario for a little inkling in the setup.

Spoiler: Loss for town

correct lynch on werewolfs.

8v3v2

2 townies dead

6v3v2

Correct lynch mafia

6v2v2

2 townies dead

4v2v2

Correct lynch Mafia

4v1v2

2 townies dead

2v1v2

Correct lynch Mafia

2v2 werewolf win.

Not only did they never mislynch, they lost the game.

Try to remember this, it's a 14 player game.

13 player games generally have a MAXIMUM of 4 anti-town members for balance reasons (any more and it can be impossible for them to win)

[ferretlover]

Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!

[Mr. Flay]

But if town does it for them, it actually punishes town for lynching well.

[quadz08]

Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!

Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.

[JasonWazza]

Exactly as Flay and Quadz posted.

Worst case scenario you never want a no mislynch game to become a loss as it's extremely unfair for the town (especially if they do so well as to not mislynch).

[Faraday]

Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!

Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.

every multi scum game ever then?

[JasonWazza]

To be fair most multi scum games are balanced when scum doesn't overpower the town so much (42% of the town being anti-town is a bit drastic)

[Klick]

Hmm. That actually gives me an idea.

White Flag Multiball

8-11 Townies (what is balanced?)
3 Mafia
3 Werewolves
Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.

Thoughts?

[Klick]

Also playing around with...

Forget Me Not

Town (10)

2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla

Mafia (3)

1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon

Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y

I think this is really

scumsided

townsided. Possibly three Cop investigations going around, Cops don't have to reveal in order to give investigations, and if Mafia get an innocent, they either have to lie about their result for a 1v1 or not reveal and risk getting called out by a Cop.

[Faraday]

Er. You mean townsided then, right?

[Klick]

Heh, yeah

[Cheery Dog]

Hmm. That actually gives me an idea.

White Flag Multiball

8-11 Townies (what is balanced?)
3 Mafia
3 Werewolves
Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.

Thoughts?

I'm assuming nights are included?

[Klick]

Yes.

[ferretlover]

what do you mean by "nights are included"?

[Cheery Dog]

For some reason I thought white flag was a nightless setup.

[Klick]

I don't know the actual White Flag setup but I think you're right. However, this one isn't.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't know the actual White Flag setup but I think you're right. However, this one isn't.

no I checked the wiki, I was wrong. *it's black flag (nightless) that's nightless.

[Klick]

Ah okay.

But does anyone know what's balanced here? My guess would be 10 VTs, but I have no idea.

[LlamaFluff]

Fools for Thought

7 Vt
1 MSci
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia RB
1 mafia goon

neighborizer chooses during start of day and night who to have in QT for next day
neighborizer may choose to have a new QT made whenever a new person is recruited.
Mad scientist targets 2 living players and is told whether or not the alignment of those two is SAME or NOT SAME.
Mad scientist may not select a target he selected on previous night.
fool reaching its win con ends game


it has been mathematically determined that the odd day fool does not have a statistical advantage due to the odds to get lynched increasing in time.

No.

Apart from the fact that its jesters (amazingly amazingly bad to start) you are creating a game that can end D1 (actually getting worse) where scum are forced to kill two players who are not even town aligned (still managing to somehow get worse) and town is basically in a crushing position to start the game. I mean... 9:2 is somewhat scum sided but you have two named town (essentially) from there, you have a (essentially) a cop... I mean. Scum HAS to kill four players at night unless town can get lucky enough to lynch a jester on the right day...

Im not even sure where the appeal in this setup starts and there are a ton of glaring flaws to deal with. Are the jesters supposed to make this more scum-sided or something? I mean... the cop hits "same" N1 they just claim and bang-bang you have four confirmed town voting block.

Way too many issues, factions can hold the other hostage with the jester, unbalanced, fast finishes, forcing large numbers of scum actions... not really sure where to start even finxing something like this.

[Cheery Dog]

Ah okay.

But does anyone know what's balanced here? My guess would be 10 VTs, but I have no idea.

Of the three open approved multiball setups on the wiki, Fire and Ice has 8:2:2, Friends and Enemies and Enemies has 8:2:2 and Mason and Monks is 9:2:2.

Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.

Yeah I think with increased scum you need to up the amount of VTs the game had original (White Flag is a 10:3 setup)
12 or 14 townies would work I think.

[LlamaFluff]

Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.

That setup probably needs more town too.

[Plessiez]

Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.

Not sure if I'm reading this properly: Does town win when the

total

number of scum is one, or does each scum faction individually lose as soon as they are reduced to one member? If it's the latter, presumably the last survivor of a scum faction is removed from the game as soon as this happens?

(In either case, I agree with the consensus that you'd want more than 10 VTs here.)

[Plessiez]

Speaking of White Flag variants:

Grey Flag Semi-Nightless

8 vanilla townies
3 mafia goons

* Mafia have daytalk.
* Game is nightless

until

a day ends with mafia being lynched or a day ends with no lynch; once this happens every day is followed by a night phase
* Once nights begin, mafia can and must kill every night.
* Town wins once the mafia is reduced to a single member.
* Otherwise mafia win when the number of living mafia equals or exceeds the number of living town.

In other words, it's Black Flag Nightless until one of the scum is lynched and then it becomes normal White Flag. Aiming for something of the feel of Black Flag but trying to limit the chances of town walking all over scum from the start (which seems to be an inherent danger in any completely Nightless game.)

Odds are 49% with random lynching, I think.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

#lang racket

(define (greyflag T M)
  ;; odds of town winning a game of Grey Flag Mafia that starts with T townies and M mafia
  (cond
    ;; if there are as many mafia alive as town, town loses
    [(>= M T) 0]
    ;; if there is only one mafia alive, town wins
    [(equal? M 1) 1]
    ;; if there are two mafia, town can lynch (and win if they hit mafia) or no lynch
    [(equal? M 2) (max (+ (/ M (+ T M)) (* (/ T (+ T M)) (greyflag (- T 2) M)))
                       (greyflag (- T 1) M))]
    ;; if there are 3 mafia, they don't get to kill after a mislynch.  So it's never worth not lynching.
    [else (+ (* (/ M (+ T M)) (greyflag (- T 1) (- M 1))) (* (/ T (+ T M)) (greyflag (- T 1) M)))]))

Dropping one of the VTs might work better in practice, I suppose: odds of a town win are 42% then with random lynching (which seems safe enough) and town should be doing better than random lynching anyway.

[ArcAngel9]

Is VT's are compulsory in every open setup? or Is it just formal so that it gives a balance since mafia is only 20-30 percent in total