Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[Generic]

Fegelein I still haven't let off for the auto clearing you on page one. Felt like a double bluff, the assumption being mafia would distance from eachother rather than clear each other.

[Nachomamma8]

I thoroughly enjoyed this post because it clearly articulated what I was thinking when I read the exchange between Feel It and Fegelein and was laced with the amount of sarcasm it deserved. And it lead into some interesting responses from Feel It:

This is interesting because it takes a completely different path from what most people's interpretations of Gen Wolf were at the time, which is something that I normally like a lot. However, I notice that champino completely avoided actually defending Gen (or commenting on the positions people were taking on him) and instead ended up subtly defending and chainsawing Gen a bit, which I don't like because it's a roundabout way of defending a townread and normally town prefers doing things like this out in the open.

I also haven't really liked how he hasn't really been taking any strong positions this game at all. Look at his reads post:

Champinoman

- For the most part he (used to) look fine. I don't like his obsession with slips. I await an explanation why they are so important to him. I also don't like his "you're scummy for attacking him/me" attitude. In general I get the impression he finds everybody scummy, which isn't quite useful, so I request a T/S list.

I do find everybody scummy and I think it would be unwise to think otherwise.

Here is what I am currently thinking even though this day is still very young:

Antagon

and

Nachomamma8

are supposed to be our SE and IC however between them they have posted the least in terms of scum hunting. Both seem content in sitting back and not actively contributing. Considering this game is 3 days old I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at the moment that they have been busy. However if this continues then it moves from unlucky timing to deliberate avoidance.

Fegelein

is more active than the 2 above but only just. I want to hear more from him because I like what I have seen so far. however, he has posted so little it's impossible to justify a read either way.

Gen_Wolf

hasn't really posted too much other than defending himself over 'the incident' on page 1. As I mentioned in my previous post, I wasn't overly impressed by his claim it was a deliberate reaction test, however this isn't enough for me to be convinced that he is scum.

Generic

is the one person I consider to be leaning town at the moment. I have been happy with the way he has answered anything put at him and also in the way that he has queried others.

Feel It

came out of the blocks hard and fast and was riding the Gen_Wolf bandwagon hard. However, since momentum on that seems to have slowed a little he has vanished. I'm finding it hard to get a read on him with so little to go on.

James May

is another that is hard to get a read on due to complete lack of activity. His recent post was the first time that he has shared an opinion on someone and I liked what I read. However, it is very minimal. If you are used to playing faster paced games then surely this slow style of play is not your norm? And your fast reactions to different people mentioning your name in the last few hours seems to heavily suggest lurking. Dive in and scum hunt!

Miss Stranger

... hmmmm... what to think? I have changed my mind so many times in these last 3 days trying to decide if you are scummy, overeager or even just new to this. Currently I would have to say that I think you are leaning scum. The big thing annoying me right now is that you have lined up a bunch of 'if this happens then' scenarios. These will be very interesting to look back at in day 2. I can't help but feel that you are trying to create scenarios that set people up (myself included) so that you are not an obvious lynch candidate.

Everyone in his list with the exception of Generic is null or sort of scummy. Every. Single. Person. Now, I understand a certain degree of paranoia because it's natural, but only being able to nail down a single town read doesn't feel genuine at all.

I currently think they are as useless as each other and am having trouble deciding which one deserves it more. I'm not even worried if they aren't scum because they are useless townies anyway. So much for having IC and SE players to teach us all how to play and guide us.

You said something like this while ignoring someone like Fegelein? Really?

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

This is a STRONG misrep, considering you somehow missed all those posts Antagon made in the middle. So yeah, it makes sense if his reads shift a bit.

[Nachomamma8]

It's nothing huge of course, just somewhat suspicious behavior, you may well be telling the truth, but you slipped up first so you get prodded first. You don't seem that new to me. Have you played on other sites?

I liked this post in particular because Feel It as scum had the chance to use his aggression to make Miss Stranger bury herself in a hole, but that's not the way he ended up playing it. It felt like an attempt to get a stronger read on her.

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE. I find it interesting that you described myself as opportunistic when I've put pressure and ask questions of suspicious behavior, I'm hardly trying to force a lynch already like Gen_Wolf suggested.

This was... a little strange. He had no problems voting quickly before, so him randomly hesitating on Gen when he didn't hesitate on Miss Stranger even though he brings up the possibility that it could have just been a newb mistake doesn't quite add up.

be back later

[Nachomamma8]

Are you serious? I'm one the more involved posters so far, and retorting my scum claim with an accusation against me only makes you look even worse, look how quickly and desperate you latched on to champinoman backing you up before you accuse me of buddying.

I liked the aggressive response to this; he felt offended that someone accused him of not scumhunting, which makes it feel like he's emotionally invested in the game, which is a good sign. The OMGUS isn't good, but I don't think it's scum motivated.

If the guy is town I'm sorry but he's acted very scummy so far in.

Yeah, if Gen got lynched and he flipped town I would very likely be lynched d2, but even then it doesn't really make sense. If I was a maf, why would i draw attention to myself and push a lynch on a guy who was passing under the radar, who I knew was innocent, and when he got lynched and flipped town everyone would be after my blood? It's illogical and bad mafia play,

I don't like how he preemptively defends himself against a Gen_Wolf townflip at all because it's insanely premature and he really shouldn't worry about being lynched after pushing hard on a scumread.

Gen_Wolf won't be here for a while and we've applied pressure to him and got reactions, we'd be better looking at other players, particularly the lurkers trying to slide by unnoticed.

But this conflicts pretty solidly with the whole "Feel It afraid of Gen flipping town" business, which makes me feel a lot better. His style is putting people to the fire and then moving on when they look town, and he's been consistent with that style so far despite a couple of awkward looking posts. What I DON'T understand is why his vote remained on Gen_Wolf in this post. There were several lurkers at this point, but he only voted Antagon after MS and James May did.

How is that scummy? You just sound butthurt that I started a bw on you at the beginning of the game.

This is an extremely weak response to MS's reads.

Aw, the post where Generic voted Antagon is also gone.

Eager to get rid of him?

...and this is a cheap potshot if it's serious.

See Gen_Wolf this is why I think you're scummy you make odd posts and accusations. I've done at least as much scumhunting as you and probably a lot more?

And here it seems like he has stronger convictions in Gen Wolf being scum, and still he votes Antagon and I don't really see why.

Like I said I'd prefer Antagon but Nacho hasn't been very town either.

But what happened to Wolf?

[Nachomamma8]

Fegelein is a bit of a difficult read for me unless he's under pressure. I haven't played with him when he's been scum, but his general town play is lurky unless he comes under pressure, which is exactly what we're seeing here. Would love if he made a concerted effort to contribute without me attacking him, though because right now he's just being lazy as fuck.

Gen Wolf:

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post. I have to agree, from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.

I actually like this post from Gen, mainly because he had gotten a lot of shit for that specific post and he was defending himself by saying that it was a way to get out of RVS; the reaction being an immediate "thank you" seems more genuine than buddying, if only for the fact that scum wouldn't alienate their only defender from the crowd so quickly while it's more of a knee-jerk, not really thinking response from town.

When I do flip town however, I highly doubt Feel It would be scum. I don't think he would be stupid enough to stick his neck out that far so early on.

Although I don't like the overall air of "when I die, do this" considering it felt like it was way too early, I did like that his "when I die" testament was a town declaration on someone who was mostly town when Wolf flipped anyways. I don't think a partner would want to bring suspicion to his partner when the bus was just finishing up.

She is very active but also seems like she is making herself busy. However a long with this she does make valid points at times but is also very quick to concede certain points. I get the impression she is new, and thus very timid making it easy to intimidate your opinion onto Miss Stranger. I might be completely wrong though but from her current play I cannot see her being scum. I do not, however, like this if Gen flips town then let vote Feel it business. It is a very easy way for scummy players to justify to lynches in succession and thus through a spanner in her town works just a bit. Ninja'd here. Post 22 however doesn't mention my post directly but rahter questions your mistake. Thus it took 3 posts for you to directly confront my post. I am not lying or putting words in your mouth, I am simply asking a question. However, your post reinforced my townish read on you, but again I don't like that fact that you bring up PR's? I never once insinuated I was a PR and I won't be as it is a detriment to town. If I am a PR I will claim when necessary, if I am not, then I will not. (Thank you for the luck) (I know it isnt personal, its just a game )

I actually really like this post. It's a bit stream of consciousness-y, but it outlines pretty clearly what Gen Wolf likes about Miss Stranger, what he dislikes... and considering MS was mostly a universal townread at this point, the effort that Gen put in here was completely unnecessary for doing anything except for settling his own personal problems with her.

My grievances with this are, firstly, you are already playing Day 2. You are so sure that I am going to flip scum that when I don't you are going to be taking two steps back and thus not only would you have wasted day 1 but you will be spending day 2 starting a fresh. I am not saying that voting me is wrong, if you feel I am the most scummiest of players then please lay your vote down on me. However, what I do ask is stop making assumptions based on me being scum because I can promise you it is wrong and it will be a detriment to town inevitably. Thus, all I ask is play the game now for Day 1. If I do get voted off, then start making your decisions based on solid facts because you will know my alignment and thus there will be no need to speculate.

And combined with this, it shows that Gen is seeing mostly town in front of him but is paranoid of the pings that he gets now and then; it makes sense because I'm guessing he was thinking about it after he posted this, Miss Stranger does that thing that bothers him, and then here comes this post.

[Nachomamma8]

I like Generic a lot this game, ever since his big post in the early stages of the game. I liked his #61 because it was literally page 3 and Generic squeezed every bit of information he could possibly manage to find out of the thread, and that would be a very impressive thing to undertake by very confident scum.

Forgive me if there are more questions I need to answer, I am being bombarded with questions... Anyone else playing this or is it just me? :p

I've always had the theory that townies are more likely to feel alone; it's a cold and lonely world when you're trying to sort everything out by yourself, and Gen is feeling it here.

Gen wolf, after Friday I would like a T/S list please. That's a run through of everyone in the game and what you think of them and their alignment if its not a known concept here.

And good luck with the exams.

unvote

until I get what I asked for, in case any fast wagon ing might try and take place.

I liked this back off as well. At the game state when this unvote came, it was easy for him to keep pushing and overwhelm Gen, but instead he went with the typical MTGS "T/S list", which felt like giving him an extra chance to sort things out which I liked quite a bit.

It's always annoying when almost the entire game reads you as town and you ARE town :p my chances if survival tonight just took a major dip.
At least when you are under suspicion you might be kept alive for the potential mislynch, this is why I don't like a lot if positive feedback.
If I spot a scum player today though at least that works in my favour.

This read pretty genuine since it's paranoia at getting townreads. I don't think scumGen would be trying to remind us that it will be suspicious if he lives long (if he's that ballsy, major props), but it seems strange to self-sabotage yourself when you're having a great game.

But although im new to this I have weirdly seen a bit of meta about someone who turned up on another site im playing mafia in. I don't think its fair to vote for them based solely on a cross site spot (imagine being found out as mafia based on accidentally meeting up with another player in a different game on a different site... this could be a first!) but I will be asking nachomamma to respond to me and explain why his strong aggressive analysis has been lacking so far here. Yes he came for me, but that was VERY tunnelled on the one person. I think he is capable of more broad strokes and has yet to do that. So meta could be his downfall here.

This was also extremely, extremely town although we can't really say more than ongoings.

[Nachomamma8]

Feg, I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time because the last game i played I jumped the gun on a lynch that costed me the game >_> (was town that game btw) and I don't have solid reads on anyone but the questions was merely out of curiosity to see their reasoning. Better to survey the area from afar (well for me at least since I am trying to stop jumping the bullet for long phases like this :/ Use to playing 48-96 hour day phases and it requires a bit of on your feet kind of thing...)

I've seen the transition from short days to long days many times, and usually after the first town game there's a bit of an overcompensation to the passive side. That's what this is, and it's natural and pretty cool.

Now, the ones that are Null-Town to Null-Scum (although there aren't any in Null-Scum atm) I need to read up on the ISOs separately to get a full idea on who is what and not jump the bullet. But I feel like the strongest Town read, on my end at least, is Generic as I could fully understand everything what he is saying with each post that he puts. Though Feel It has vanished from the radar (probably from rl-related issues?), Gen Wolf is V/LA & Nacho is sort of in this "backseat scumhunting" zone. I suppose that the meta of each of them would help out immensely in my reads and probably need to scope in on past games to get the general idea of their town/scum metas. As for Champin & Antag, it's also a matter of meta that needs to be fleshed out so that I can also understand their gameplay. I know that I'm mentioning meta a few times but I personally feel that on this phase using a player's meta from previous game to get a general idea of their typical town/scum meta would help a lot in here, especially for the SE/IC that are here.

There's a player I end up hydraing a lot who ends up making promises like this that are way too much for him to do and he never ends up following through on them. The intent behind it seems townish, and the later vote on Antagon makes a lot of sense, considering his reads at the time.

Stubbs's entrance is aggressive and pretty nice. He doesn't leave himself much room at all for jumping on my wagon, which that he's pretty much as good as cleared if Antagon flips scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Miss Stranger has struck me as very, very town for this entire game. I've liked her T/S scum lists, I really liked her pick up on Antagon, I've liked her questioning... now it might be because I'm a bit tired after all of that, but I think the Miss Stranger read is one that is shared by pretty much everyone (save Gen Wolf) and so doesn't need much explaining.

[Feel It]

If antagon is mafia, I'm pitching either fegelein or feel it for teammate, both if its a three man team (forgot what the split was).
Feel it refused to move his vote to nacho yet was happy to post intent to hammer on him. It simply doesn't add up.

To me he wants to sit on the antagon wagon in case that ends in a lynch so he can appear a part if it, but was ready to wait for nacho to respond and then hammer him claiming the posts weren't good enough.

Uh no, go back and look at my posts I've had a scumread on him all day, that's why my vote is there. If i was maf do you really think I'd sit and contribute my partner dying this early, on D1? that's ridiculous and contradicts me being hesitant to lynch Nacho.

@Nacho- My top two scumreads are on Gen_Wolf and Antagon, have been most of the game, especially seeing as Gen_Wolf seems hesitant to vote Antagon. But I'm not certain of you, champ, or Fegelin

[Nachomamma8]

Anyways, after my reread, I've noticed there are more things that I found issue with than I thought I would. I'd like to get a little more discussion before Antagon is hammed, especially from champinoman and Feel It. Right now, I like champino less and am most interested in how he responds to all of this; Feel It is still leaning town for me despite my problems with him.

Vote: champinoman

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: champinoman

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho- My top two scumreads are on Gen_Wolf and Antagon, have been most of the game, especially seeing as Gen_Wolf seems hesitant to vote Antagon. But I'm not certain of you, champ, or Fegelin

What do you think of the recent things I've brought up on champ? Why are you OK with lynching me and letting one of your top two get away?

[Feel It]

@Nacho- My top two scumreads are on Gen_Wolf and Antagon, have been most of the game, especially seeing as Gen_Wolf seems hesitant to vote Antagon. But I'm not certain of you, champ, or Fegelin

What do you think of the recent things I've brought up on champ? Why are you OK with lynching me and letting one of your top two get away?

Yeah, champ has been pretty cautious with his opinions and posts all day, it's why I've found it hard to get a read on him. He has a similar play style to you actually, which makes your vote on him kinda funny. As to being okay to lynching you, well because I'm not actually certain of them being guilty they're just the highest, I could easily be wrong about them and I'm keeping an open mind.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote Count 1.8

Fegelein - 1 (Gen_Wolf)
champinoman - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Nachomamma8 - 3 (Fegelein, champinoman, Antagon)
Antagon - 3 (Miss Stranger, Feel It, StubbsKVM)
Feel It - 1 (Generic)

Not Voting - 0 ()

5 to Lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-06-30 08:00:00)

.

[champinoman]

Quick update: I was 80% through writing a reply when my Internet died. Luckily I've managed to save the post but I won't be able to post it until I get to work tomorrow in roughly 9 hours from now. I'll try and get in early to cover anything that happens overnight too. Apologies but there's not much I can do other than curse my ISP.

[Generic]

Ok, I think anyone who has any sense will see nachos effort here and realise he surely is t the scummiest option for day 1.

Antagon for me answers a lot of questions on players.

And feel it, I have recently spent a scum game elsewhere voting against my teammate each and every day phase. We managed to divide the town who believed the scum team was either me and a town player or my teammate and a town player. I named it castling, after the chess play where the room swaps places with the king. We subbed each other out by white knighting and distancing over a long period of time. Won us the game.

Anyway, the point to the story is that just because you are voting for someone doesn't suddenly make you unaligned pairs. And from my perspective you have just witnessed your second scum suspect put your third at L-1, you then offered intent to hammer that and when I switched vote to put your more strongest suspect at L-1 you had issues with it!
You forgot all about suspect number 1, gen wolf, and react to the potential lynch of a guy you just called scummier than nacho. To me you are a mafia player light bussing with no intent to see him lynched, meanwhile the chance of a mislynch is snatched from you and you react to it.

Pedit:
Was about to switch vote to antagon and put him at L-1, but given nachos case against champino I want champino to respond before I do anything else.

[Generic]

Is t = isn't

[Generic]

And room swaps places with the king = rook swaps places with the king

[Feel It]

Come on now, you're using meta as an argument, but not even MY meta. Your logic is weak. I've had the guy as my second fos all day. I can't lightly buss Antagon AND refuse to change my vote to somebody else stop contradicting yourself. As to Gen_Wolf, look at yourself he was your main suspect to and you changed your vote the reasoning was obvious: the bandwagon on him lost steam and we wanted to put pressure on other players. He's gotten lucky today.

[Generic]

I saw incidents that made others scummier. You were desperate for nacho to be under pressure from L-1, you declared you would be willing to hammer him...
Yet when I suggested you put him at L-1 you were reluctant to vote for him at all.
So why was hammering him to an official lynch a preference to putting non-final pressure of the L-1 on him?

No meta there, the facts of the game. Answer me that one.

[Miss Stranger]

@Stubbs:

I love this first post. I'm definitely waiting for him to catch up with reads and share them.

@Generic:

I don't understand the question MS. Why would lynching someone you perceive to be town a good idea?

This is an interesting way to ask the question, but I probably expressed myself poorly. What I was saying was... Assume Antagon is town and doesn't change his gameplay throughout the game. Assume LYLO with him + 2 townies and 2 mafia. It's just going to be very easy to lead the same lynch on him like this one, and game over. If there is a scummy player, I'd rather have them lynched away early on, rather than have them harboured by the mafia as an easy lynch in LYLO.
Also, the only reason my gut thinks Antagon might be town is that he simply *appears* not impressed there's lots of votes on him. However that Honest Abel style hop on Nacho definitely holds my vote on him, gut or not.
What do you mean by this: "Antagon for me answers a lot of questions on players." #265

@Nachomamma:

I *love* the new analysis. Finally Nacho is back and his posts take the shift to active scumhunting and not simply "{quote block} explain this". On his position on champ: I agree that champ's reads in that post leave a lot to be desired. I think in post #204 he ignored Fegelein because he was referring to the two players being voted and being inactive (Nacho and Antagon), who happened to be IC and SE. Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone? I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers, and subsequently changed his mind a little on GW and started considering him town. In any case, I'm interested to hear Champ's response to this.

@Feel It:

I don't think Antagon's wagon is losing steam. He still looks like he's going to be lynched. Also, you never answered Generic's question, just sort of said "why does it bother you".


I hope I've not been overly verbose this time.

[Nachomamma8]

He has a similar play style to you actually, which makes your vote on him kinda funny.

What do you mean?

As to being okay to lynching you, well because I'm not actually certain of them being guilty they're just the highest, I could easily be wrong about them and I'm keeping an open mind.

You could easily be wrong about anyone. But that doesn't mean you lynch just everyone, right?

Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone?

I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers,

This is exactly what chainsaw defending is: defending someone by attacking their attackers.

He has a similar play style to you actually, which makes your vote on him kinda funny.

What do you mean?

As to being okay to lynching you, well because I'm not actually certain of them being guilty they're just the highest, I could easily be wrong about them and I'm keeping an open mind.

You could easily be wrong about anyone. But that doesn't mean you lynch just everyone, right?

Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone?

I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers,

This is exactly what chainsaw defending is: defending someone by attacking their attackers.

[Generic]

You got a stutter there nacho

[Feel It]

@Miss Stranger:

I am using your way of addressing people lol. I wasn't talking about Antagon it was Gen_Wolf I was referring to. And I don't know which question you mean.

@Nacho:

It's just funny you find a guy a scummy who plays the same as you.

@Generic:

I've answered this before: I wasn't going to hammer him, I gave intent because he was gone and I wanted to pressure and draw him out, but then you changed your vote again which made it null. If I had then changed my vote to nacho it would be me losing pressure on the guy I'd prefer lynched (Antagon.)

[Generic]

So you lied about being willing to hammer him?

Not a great start feel it but ok.

And then you say moving your vote loses pressure on antagon. But antagons reaction to being at L-2 was a desperate jump on the other wagon to bring him out of the firing line, when we were nowhere near the deadline. And when I acted on that you seemed to react o it negatively. Yet my moved ADDED pressure to your bigger suspect.

Am I the only one finding this story to not add up? If I am I will stop wasting my time on something I have clearly read totally wrong, but to me feel it thinks antagon is more suspicious and in need of pressure but when he reacted badly and I applied more to him feel it took issue.

And this push on nacho you desired, he responded without needing to be at L-1, and with far more analysis in the game than anyone else. Put that against what antagon did at L-2 and tell me I was wrong to move my vote.