Newbie 1381 Oakhaven is Overrun Game Over

[Malakittens]

Remembrance note to look at this after work.

Also Talah. I have played with Hyper in both alignments and I have a special tell in regards of him. He's town because he's glowing with this town tell.

[Greywing]

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

[Gen_Wolf]

Gen_Wolf

, caught one of your pre-crash posts and wanted to clarify that I was in no way jumping from wagon to wagon:

Agreed, but unless we can get 5 people online to vote on some pretty flaky evidence um...
Fake / Pedit: Gen, we need a lynch today??

The fake edit was a question I was asking you, when I spotted that you'd 'stubborned up' and effectively said you weren't available for a tybalt lynch even if it meant causing a no-lynch. Several of the things you said in those final couple of furious hours were seemingly contradictory as well, all three of jmo, hb and myself spotted those fairly readily. Any reason for that? (Also 'flaky' means not solid (or probably 'prone to flaking apart') in my land.)

I believe I answered the contradiction. I said that because I unvoted it does not mean I agreed with a townslip but I had to look at the situation because townslips can be manufactured and thus I would rather be safe or sorry. I said it at the end of day 1 if you want to double check.

I agree we needed a lynch, however, I said I did not want to lynch Tybalt and in this instance I was correct. In other cases I might have been wrong but we left it to late and a no lynch would have been less damaging than losing our jailkeeper. It was quite a mess to end the day. However, it is obviously easier speaking in hindsight.

Remembrance note to look at this after work.

Also Talah. I have played with Hyper in both alignments and I have a special tell in regards of him. He's town because he's glowing with this town tell.

Do you care to let us in the loop?

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

[Hyperion]

OK so stuff incoming in a few minutes

[Hyperion]

So before I move on:

Tunneling, no other defined reads outside of his one of Thane (now Gen?). In general this is bad

, but for an IC, you are really teaching these newbies nothing. Leaning scum

JMO was putting words in my mouth saying my case on him was because he was a bad IC. My read was based on the fact that he was tunneling on one person, and had no other defined reads, thats why it says

in general this is bad

. The IC comment is an add on.

[Hyperion]

answering questions first

O Baby Jaymo, you must be so sweeeeepy!

Go and take your nap, I'll be there soon to read you a story (and it will have YOU in it!)

@Hyper, you gave me a breakdown of Mala earlier when I asked; when you get a moment could you please point out in much the same way why you thought Grey's analysis was good? (Maybe paraphrasing that, gotta get to work). I'd like to have a rational discussion about it.

post 96 and 147 are the ones that I liked, they both show alot of analyses. However, I still don't like his switch earlier in the game from luigitown and malascum to the other way around It felt rather oppurtunistic, and thats why I still had a slight null/scum read on him.

To that effect,

Hyperion

, will you help me out and clarify whether HB's killing is WIFOM; would we be looking for people who HB suspected, or people who HB

didn't suspect

do you think?

Honestly, I am very bad at night kill analyses, and I think it should be reviewed on a case by case basis

[Hyperion]

Mala, your opinion on talah?

Gen, your opinion on talah?

Talah, your opinion on gen?

Question: Are you going to do anything with the answers to these questions? If not why did you ask them?

Random thought I have been thinking: Getting some whiteknight vibes from grey in regards to jmo. Which could mean jmo is town and grey is scum. I'm not sold on it just yet, but will keep it in mind going forward. will do night kill analyses later.

[jmo16mla]

The questions give me answers for down the road. You look at someone's responses, then later on in the game, if they vote that "strong town read" without reasoning, or something like that, it is useful to pressure someone based on that. I really haven't gotten around to reading because I just had an exam I had to study for, il get on this.

What's the difference between what honey bee was doing and what grey was doing?

[Greywing]

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

[Malakittens]

I have to agree that is was better to have a lynch then a no lynch, but it's sad we lynched a pr off.

Also HoneyyyyyyyBeeeeeee; I'll avenge you!

@Talah:

May I ask why you singled out Hyperion for that question with the HB kill, but not anyone else?

[talah]

Certainly. Can't say I thought about it too much at the time, don't think I was singling him out actually (that in response to the characterisation of the question )

I actually had been forming questions I already wanted to ask most people for the duration of night / crash. Pretty much everyone else I had some kind of meaningful follow up question for already (except you who I didn't really want to rile you as you already seemed quite irritated by my idiocy. Also FTR I'll be trying to lurk and learn a bit more).

Hyperion intro'ed himself basically saying I was def-newb, which I took as him saying something about his own skills. I pointed this out the first time I asked him about WIFOM (well more pointedly in the major update post a bit later), also wanted to follow up on jmo's pre-crash post saying we should investigate HB in view of the NK (and incidentally am wanting to learn what WIFOM actually is in the context of a game anyway). Since the investigation of HB seemed to strike me as a possible example of this, I decided it might be a good question to try to engage Hyperion in conversation as he's been a bit lurkey. I don't have much of a feel for whether his behaviour is scummy or towney so asked a pretty neutral and informative question for everyone, if answered (and I have faith).

Everyone else should feel free to throw their hat into the ring, about the implications of HB's NK (or indeed Tybalt's lynch) as well as the direct question - each post is an open letter after all.
(nudge-nudge.. get to the avenging!)

[talah]

(briefly s'pose the other thing too is that Hyper's shown some decent ability to give neutral sit-reps in several of the posts he's made, so if he's town it could be really valuable. If he's scum it would be (might be?) difficult to hide in a neutral sit-rep about an NK.)

[Malakittens]

Okay.

That's fair.

Actually I was annoyed at the day dragging not specifically you and I apologize if I took it out on you. I will say some of your posts didn't make sense at first.

Hmmm.

I thought there was question towards me regarding my stance on Tybalt. I wonder if that was eaten during the crash - I don't see it. At least not on page 21.

[Malakittens]

By my underinformed judgement the tybalt lynch means we have either Row 1 or Column A of the setup, in which case I guess that a roleblocker and a bulletproof virtually cancel each other out, if Column A is the setup.

On the upside, at least no one who's town has reason to be mysterious about potential doc or cop roles anymore.

Oh this.

I'm not sure how this helps the town. I see it indirectly fishing for possible reactions. We don't need our other PR (That's if we have any left) to be outed.

May I ask what you were planning on doing with this?

[talah]

Sure you can ask me anything.

Planning to do with what? Planning to do with your inference that it's me trying to role-hunt?

I'm happy to be corrected, but 1 x 1-shot bulletproof town and 1 x mafia roleblocker = guaranteed that the next NK will be a roleblock and a kill on the same person.

My point is that nobody who's scum now has any excuse to be making all the signs of being some town PR that they're not - ie acting all mysterious and lurking because they don't want to give their puritanical town role away. This means that people who lurk now or don't scumhunt or answer questions frankly begin to become more scummy-looking, because there's no future opportunity for a false roleclaim of Doc or Cop. That's how it's advantageous to town.

And I'll have to slightly disagree if you are saying that lynching Tybalt was a terrible outcome (which I'm entirely not sure you are). He didn't defend himself with any efficacy, he dropped a few weird statements and then couldn't explain his reasoning - nor did he really attempt to - and "Wait for the Hotsauce update coming guys" or whatever, then no update for hours and ends up with him getting lynched, wtf is that? No we weren't waiting with baited breath like grateful paupers for an update from Tybalt - we were waiting for some statements that made sense, or some defence. Seriously it's not the worst thing in the world. The devastation is in HB's loss, as she was moving things ahead and questioning pretty much everything. And now we don't really have that.

Hope that *opinion and analysis* serves to put your mind at ease about my alignment. Not being sarcastic or narky, but the pace of this game is excruciating.

May I ask you in return for some notional clarification of the Scum/Town list you put together anyway? Feelings, past events, hints, whatever?

While I'm answering questions, I might as well throw in:

(...)
You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

Grey this is ridiculous. Why didn't you drop back in and say oops when you re-read it and realised (probably moments after posting it) that you've misread the sentence? Seems like you have time to drop in whenever you want to make a demand or place some allusion on someone's intent but absolutely no time to answer the questions given to you. This is pretty much the same complaint I had of jmo to start with, but I have to re-read jmo in light of heavy tunnelling. If you're doing the same thing to me, and ignoring my own questions, from experience it can be a slippery slope.

So this:

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

Why did you ask this? How does it help town?

...And other recent questions from Gen, and previous questions, go completely unanswered. (I give you credit for your most recent post which is actually a direct answer.) But seriously, we need to scumhunt, which means if you're town you need to be open to answering all kinds of questions, not just the ones that suit you. You had that attitude early on yourself pestering Tybalt (or Thane?) for the answer to a question. Y U NO answer questions?

[talah]

Something I've also been meaning to ask... I don't know if it's faux pas.

How many completed games does each player have? Of Mafia, Werewolf, anything like this. I haven't chased up meta on you guys' previous games really. (couple of clickey clickey browsey browsey weeks ago on jmo and mothrax is all)

If it's a bad question, tell me please. But I'll start the ball rolling: Completed games of Mafia or similar: 0

[Malakittens]

Uh. I have two mafia sites (this included) for years of mafia. I'm not sure how many games between the two.
Maybe over 50.

[Greywing]

Sure you can ask me anything.

"Guys, guys, look how cooperative I am! Ignore the fact that my predecessor dropped scum-tells, I've jumped on every available wagon in order to push a lynch, and have continuously posted fluff in order to look active...I'm willing to do anything for you guys, I *must* be Town!"

VOTE: Talah

While I'm answering questions, I might as well throw in:

(...)
You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

Grey this is ridiculous. Why didn't you drop back in and say oops when you re-read it and realised (probably moments after posting it) that you've misread the sentence? Seems like you have time to drop in whenever you want to make a demand or place some allusion on someone's intent but absolutely no time to answer the questions given to you. This is pretty much the same complaint I had of jmo to start with, but I have to re-read jmo in light of heavy tunnelling. If you're doing the same thing to me, and ignoring my own questions, from experience it can be a slippery slope.

Explain to me what I misread.

As well, I have no time to answer questions from

scum reads.

I've been perfectly happy answering questions from Honey, Jmo and Mala since I trust them.

So this:

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

Why did you ask this? How does it help town?

...And other recent questions from Gen, and previous questions, go completely unanswered. (I give you credit for your most recent post which is actually a direct answer.) But seriously, we need to scumhunt, which means if you're town you need to be open to answering all kinds of questions, not just the ones that suit you. You had that attitude early on yourself pestering Tybalt (or Thane?) for the answer to a question. Y U NO answer questions?

I'll answer the first question for you, since you clearly have some problems putting information together.

I assumed Jmo was soon to be dead due to the wagon forming, and the reads of the playerlist regarding him. I wanted his opinion before he died. I fail to grasp why this was so tough to understand.

[Gen_Wolf]

Post incoming. I am on holiday with the girlfriend so quite hard to make time, will have caught up in the next few hours. After the weekend ill be back to normal

[Gen_Wolf]

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

There is no where I can quote you said this because you did not say this. However, if you read it correctly you will see that I said the word 'I' that means I (Gen_Wolf) said it and never said you said it. Thus, you clearly did not read it properly.

Also, if you are unwilling to unanswer questions from the majority of the players in the game then you are useless to the game as you are not allowing me, and other players, to scum hunt thus hindering the game and our ability to catch scum.

Now, seeing as you said that you will not answer our questions then I see no need to have you in the game as with you or without you I will be achieving the same result. I think your maneuver is very scummy. In that case:

Vote: Greywing

[jmo16mla]

Gen, why am i no longer scum?

[Greywing]

There is no where I can quote you said this because you did not say this. However, if you read it correctly you will see that I said the word 'I' that means I (Gen_Wolf) said it and never said you said it. Thus, you clearly did not read it properly.

You structured the sentence to make it sound as though I was insinuating it. Nice try.

Also, if you are unwilling to unanswer questions from the majority of the players in the game then you are useless to the game as you are not allowing me, and other players, to scum hunt thus hindering the game and our ability to catch scum.

Now, seeing as you said that you will not answer our questions then I see no need to have you in the game as with you or without you I will be achieving the same result. I think your maneuver is very scummy. In that case:

Vote: Greywing

Ok, now you're just making your alignment obvious. I'm scum because I'm not helping my scum reads confuse the rest of the Town? I'd rather spend my game time helping my Town reads, and making cases against my scum reads. Helping you fake scum-hunt is not my plan.

You can die after Talah.

Gen, why am i no longer scum?

He thinks he'll have more luck lynching me.

[talah]

VOTE: Greywing

Yeah you're not really scumhunting though, are you? Really just recycling and re-hashing arguments from others, jumping on others opinions as your own etc. In addition I find this claimed tunnelling of myself (ie you tunnelling me as scum and therefore refusing to take things I say seriously) to be really bad look and counterproductive for someone who's subbed in pre-game to an SE slot.

jmo, can you do me a huge favour and answer this please:

jmo

, do you think that Grey's vote on mothrax, was more, or less, opportunistic than mothrax's own vote on you?

I'm having huge difficulty trying to figure out whether you're actually scummy or not.

[Greywing]

VOTE: Greywing

Yeah you're not really scumhunting though, are you? Really just recycling and re-hashing arguments from others, jumping on others opinions as your own etc. In addition I find this claimed tunnelling of myself (ie you tunnelling me as scum and therefore refusing to take things I say seriously) to be really bad look and counterproductive for someone who's subbed in pre-game to an SE slot.

Oh look, Talah's trying to start another wagon. Never saw that coming .

You're right, I've been tunneling you. I've never voted Mothrax, never pushed Gen_Wolf and never voted Tybalt. My focus has been on you this whole time!

And really? You expect me to take you seriously when you've freely admitted on several occasions that you have no idea what you're talking about?

If we're being fair though, yes, I've listened to your opinions less due to my belief that you are scum. The fact that you're calling me scummy because of that is hypocritical. You have admitted to doing the same thing.

jmo, can you do me a huge favour and answer this please:

jmo

, do you think that Grey's vote on mothrax, was more, or less, opportunistic than mothrax's own vote on you?

This just proves my point that you're just posting fluff in order to look active. Look at how he voted, and then ask yourself that again. The answer is obvious.

[talah]

Thanks, but I think I'll wait for an answer from jmo. This is not *fluff*, it's an attempt to clarify whether jmo can make sensible arguments or analysis, and if he can, then maybe he'll expand his horizons from I SET TRAP/TRAP SPRUNG/MOTHRAX SCUM.

Our 'Natural' conversation where you gave your "Read" on tybalt was pure re-hash from what other people had said before you had.

If you're not tunnelling me alone, then you're tunnelling me, mothrax, gen_wolf and hyperion. If you 'trust' your town reads, last I saw Mala's most scummy now is jmo.

If I'm stupid and incapable of putting information together, and also scum, how in fuck am I not lynched immediately as scum. You think I'm just throwing random shit together in order to "confuse" everyone?

Grey you are scum. The only thing I'm unsure of is who your partner is, and at this stage I'd like more input from Mala and mothrax as well as jmo.