Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[fferyllt]

Ok. Syr made perhaps 5 posts in that game. Virtually all the in-game interactions were mine. I had no idea that wasn't obvious.

[fferyllt]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

[sikon327]

Okay... So, I've been thinking about fferyllt's play, and have taken some time to have a look through her ISO. A few things about her play are increasingly beginning to bug me. Some of these are things that have already been pointed out in some capacity or another by other players. But here we go.

First, the obvious things:

Much of her early game posting is content-free, in scumhunting terms. Lotta talking about mechanics. That's an IC's job, sure, but there's not much else there. Explainable by saying there ain't much going on early game, fine.

Declares me a "tentative town read" in response to my suspicion of her decision not to RVS. Later on, when I start my crusade against likeabauss, she and Morthas are the only people in the thread who seem to be at all sympathetic to my view of him as obvscum at the time. Could this be construed as buddying behaviour on fferyllt's part?

Post 84: Posts her IC "boilerplate" more or less unbidden on page 4. Closest thing to a reason to do it then would be that Kue had just placed a vote on her, citing lack of scumhunting being a strange behaviour for an experienced player (an IC). I'm uneasy drawing reads from the actual content of it (even though it obviously can't be a real boilerplate in her first IC game), but the fact that she didn't post it until someone had accused her of not scumhunting is... let's say odd.

Post 118: After some interaction with Trollie, she mentions a previously undeclared and currently unexplained townread on Morthas, and an equally unexplained townread on Trollie himself. She doesn't justify it until later, using a meta dive which discounts his taciturn nature as a scumread.

Post 142, 143, 144: Finally posts two serious, in-depth scumreads upon being prompted by likeabauss. Both scumreads are, shall we say, fairly safe "lurky" targets.

Defends herself against likeabauss' accusations... many references to "this is my playstyle," "I know my alignment..." has been referring to her playstyle and her meta a lot this game.

She then initiates a conversation with Lynx_Shine, attempting to build a rapport... During this, particularly in 161 and 166, she does what I mentioned earlier I found interesting: she starts "talking herself into" a scumread on Kueshina -- funny that the person she's suddenly reading scum is, at the time, the most viable "alternative" wagon to her own. This could therefore be potentially seen as a defensive maneuver.

Some posts about how the game isn't moving fast enough. That's null...

Okay. I'm getting tired of doing a play-by-play at this point. I'll get to the point:

I have noticed a trend in fferyllt's posting. And that is this:

fferyllt's play seems to be very... reactionary. Those posts that she has made which contain content that could be considered relevant to the town aim of actually identifying scum, by and large, seem to have responses to things that have been said directly to her or have directly referenced her, not accounting for the occasional clarifying question.

Those actions that she has taken that have been more proactive have fallen into three non-scumhunting categories:
-Acting in her capacity as an IC, discussing mechanics.
-Defending herself against attacks (her feeling the need to bring up her meta when likeabauss mentions

my

townreads, her sudden scumread on Kue which I still feel smacks of a defensive "no-look-over-there" play...)
-And most tellingly, when she does mention her opinions of other players (other than when she did so in response to bauss), it seems to me that

her top priority is not to root out her enemies, but rather to make friends

. Her most notable

proactive

actions in this game (not prompted by things said directly to her) have been her (rather sudden) townread on morthas/trollie and her desire to start a "conversation" with Lynx_Shine. Paired with her townread on me in response to my suspicion of her and her similar gambit when likeabauss attacked her, it makes a disturbing trend.

Sure, many of these things seem innocent when viewed alone, but the general broad trend of her play shows a greater emphasis on finding buddies than finding scum.

I've kept my vote off the table for too long, methinks.

VOTE: fferyllt

I would very much like to hear everyone's thoughts on this matter.

[Cheery Dog]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

[Cheery Dog]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

and that the last game I played with him I tunnelled on him with some of the stuff he has done here. I still find it scummy, but from the previous game I disregarded it and I'm just overly confused.

[fferyllt]

sikon, to me, finding town is every bit as important as finding scum. When I get a town read, it takes quite a bit to shake it.

A newbie game that started back in March completed today. Town lost. But I had been right about one of the town players since early day 1 and had argued against him being lynched repeatedly.

I started that game very aggressively and contributed to a hostile and unpleasant atmosphere, especially during parts of day 1.

That game is one of the reasons why I have softened my approach especially in newbie games.


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26724

The game holds the record for largest newbie game and for the most posts made on day 1, so I doubt you'll want to read it all or even all of my 600+ posts.

[fferyllt]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

and that the last game I played with him I tunnelled on him with some of the stuff he has done here. I still find it scummy, but from the previous game I disregarded it and I'm just overly confused.

I'd expect more from him than infrequent posts consisting of nothing but tunnelling a newbie player to the exclusion of everything else going on in the game.

[TheTrollie]

after next VC im ready to vote sik

[sikon327]

I'd still rather like to know why you think I'm scum, Trollie.

[likeabauss]

Response

Most of my early game reads are based on nuances of communication, psychology, and logic. Mid to late game, I tend to switch over to interactions between players, vote patterns/analysis, but the reliance on the former components remains. We all play mafia differently, and I can appreciate that 100%. You and I have vastly different styles.

Sometimes my posts may seem denigrating, rude, or abrasive. Usually this is by design, to elicit a different response... like a response under duress. When heat is applied, some people reveal more of their true colors. That said, I do try to back it off if it makes the game less enjoyable for somebody (which it appears I may have done in this case with you.)

An example of nuance that piques my interest... you made mention of a

conversation

with Lynx about Sikon. There was very little content, as I pointed out, from either of you about Sikon. I reread both of your ISO's thoroughly, saw a couple very brief comments, and shared my analysis. It sounded as if you were making a mountain out of a molehill. (a full conversation vs a sentence.) In my experience, scum like to obfuscate by exaggerating, restating cases incorrectly, or generally muddying the waters. It seemed scummy, as I mentioned/narrated it, and your response did not pass my litmus test. I genuinely wondered if saying Sikon was a Freudian slip... if in fact you meant to say iamking or jasonwazza or somebody else.

As far as narrative, I can see your point. But that is my way of sharing my thoughts and reads based on my observations, digging, and analysis. Some of the concepts aren't easy to convey, so I give them context.

No need to tone down the snark with me though, I don't mind. Also, I still think you're mafia.

[likeabauss]

I'd still rather like to know why you think I'm scum, Trollie.

I'd like to hear anything from Trollie that resembles logic or reason for anything he has posted so far.

[cAPSLOCK]

Seems to me several players are fading back into the lurk. Including the mod a little. . How often are vote counts usually done?

[likeabauss]

My memory goes off when reading the whole thread at once in some locations. Your other two bargaining moments (one of which you've already explained slightly) were to do with reasons for the same people.

You're dodging her questions more than she has been dodging yours.

You can call it dodging or whatever you want. In reality, I believe her to be scum and I don't think it wise to answer her every question. I think she's, steering the dialogue, fishing for info that will help her and her team, and in certain cases I may refuse to supply it by ignoring a question or train of thought. If YOU or somebody else would like me to answer or respond to anything she's asked of me, that is an entirely different story. So please feel free to ask or point me in the right direction.

[Cheery Dog]

Seems to me several players are fading back into the lurk. Including the mod a little. . How often are vote counts usually done?

They're meant to be done at least daily.

[fferyllt]

Response

Most of my early game reads are based on nuances of communication, psychology, and logic. Mid to late game, I tend to switch over to interactions between players, vote patterns/analysis, but the reliance on the former components remains. We all play mafia differently, and I can appreciate that 100%. You and I have vastly different styles.

Sometimes my posts may seem denigrating, rude, or abrasive. Usually this is by design, to elicit a different response... like a response under duress. When heat is applied, some people reveal more of their true colors. That said, I do try to back it off if it makes the game less enjoyable for somebody (which it appears I may have done in this case with you.)

An example of nuance that piques my interest... you made mention of a

conversation

with Lynx about Sikon. There was very little content, as I pointed out, from either of you about Sikon. I reread both of your ISO's thoroughly, saw a couple very brief comments, and shared my analysis. It sounded as if you were making a mountain out of a molehill. (a full conversation vs a sentence.) In my experience, scum like to obfuscate by exaggerating, restating cases incorrectly, or generally muddying the waters. It seemed scummy, as I mentioned/narrated it, and your response did not pass my litmus test. I genuinely wondered if saying Sikon was a Freudian slip... if in fact you meant to say iamking or jasonwazza or somebody else.

As far as narrative, I can see your point. But that is my way of sharing my thoughts and reads based on my observations, digging, and analysis. Some of the concepts aren't easy to convey, so I give them context.

No need to tone down the snark with me though, I don't mind. Also, I still think you're mafia.

It was a conversation. Sometimes I use the term "exchange". When I do, it's because I feel that the players have their guards up with each other. From my side, there was no guardedness with Lynx. I was (and am) quite open to the possibility that she is town.

The back and forth with Cheery Dog is an exchange.

[fferyllt]

The participation level in this game is just...awful.

I'm going to analyze some ISOs tomorrow. It shouldn't take long, unfortunately.

[sikon327]

sikon, to me, finding town is every bit as important as finding scum. When I get a town read, it takes quite a bit to shake it.

A newbie game that started back in March completed today. Town lost. But I had been right about one of the town players since early day 1 and had argued against him being lynched repeatedly.

I started that game very aggressively and contributed to a hostile and unpleasant atmosphere, especially during parts of day 1.

That game is one of the reasons why I have softened my approach especially in newbie games.


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26724

The game holds the record for largest newbie game and for the most posts made on day 1, so I doubt you'll want to read it all or even all of my 600+ posts.

It just seems to me, that what's happening here is not just emphasis on townreads over scumreads, but actively attempting to build some kind of rapport with your "townreads." Your actions (starting conversations and such) seem more geared towards making yourself seem more amiable to your stated townreads than simply determining their alignments.

Response

Most of my early game reads are based on nuances of communication, psychology, and logic. Mid to late game, I tend to switch over to interactions between players, vote patterns/analysis, but the reliance on the former components remains. We all play mafia differently, and I can appreciate that 100%. You and I have vastly different styles.

Sometimes my posts may seem denigrating, rude, or abrasive. Usually this is by design, to elicit a different response... like a response under duress. When heat is applied, some people reveal more of their true colors. That said, I do try to back it off if it makes the game less enjoyable for somebody (which it appears I may have done in this case with you.)

An example of nuance that piques my interest... you made mention of a

conversation

with Lynx about Sikon. There was very little content, as I pointed out, from either of you about Sikon. I reread both of your ISO's thoroughly, saw a couple very brief comments, and shared my analysis. It sounded as if you were making a mountain out of a molehill. (a full conversation vs a sentence.) In my experience, scum like to obfuscate by exaggerating, restating cases incorrectly, or generally muddying the waters. It seemed scummy, as I mentioned/narrated it, and your response did not pass my litmus test. I genuinely wondered if saying Sikon was a Freudian slip... if in fact you meant to say iamking or jasonwazza or somebody else.

As far as narrative, I can see your point. But that is my way of sharing my thoughts and reads based on my observations, digging, and analysis. Some of the concepts aren't easy to convey, so I give them context.

No need to tone down the snark with me though, I don't mind. Also, I still think you're mafia.

It was a conversation. Sometimes I use the term "exchange". When I do, it's because I feel that the players have their guards up with each other. From my side, there was no guardedness with Lynx. I was (and am) quite open to the possibility that she is town.

The back and forth with Cheery Dog is an exchange.

The point bauss raised here was about why you said the conversation was about me (i.e. when I was only briefly mentioned, and there were other players who had come up more prominently in it), not why you used the word conversation. Explaining the semantics of how you use the word conversation seems like you're dodging the question. That further undermines my confidence in you.

[fferyllt]

Lol, yes i stuck to an RVS vote cause it landed on a scum but.

I did reply but that crash.

The fact is this, you having to wait for someone else to vote, to vote me, is scummy and opportunistic as fuck.

Jason's last post in this game was on Monday. He has made about 100 posts since then elsewhere on the site, with the majority in other games.

Game states have a lot to do with activity levels when people are playing more than one game, but to me this looks like he's ignoring this game. And I'll speculate that he's not posting because he's been happy with the current gamestate.

In ISO the posts he's made don't look too bad, aside from his hyperfocus on cAPSLOCK, so I'm not going to quote or link to them.

Leaning scum

[fferyllt]

sikon, to me, finding town is every bit as important as finding scum. When I get a town read, it takes quite a bit to shake it.

A newbie game that started back in March completed today. Town lost. But I had been right about one of the town players since early day 1 and had argued against him being lynched repeatedly.

I started that game very aggressively and contributed to a hostile and unpleasant atmosphere, especially during parts of day 1.

That game is one of the reasons why I have softened my approach especially in newbie games.


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26724

The game holds the record for largest newbie game and for the most posts made on day 1, so I doubt you'll want to read it all or even all of my 600+ posts.

It just seems to me, that what's happening here is not just emphasis on townreads over scumreads, but actively attempting to build some kind of rapport with your "townreads." Your actions (starting conversations and such) seem more geared towards making yourself seem more amiable to your stated townreads than simply determining their alignments.

Yes, I will actively try to build rapport with my townreads. It's a significant part of my town game, and games were I don't get strong reads of either town or scum are incredibly frustrating because I can't advance the game from either perspective.

As scum, I have to emulate that or people who play based on meta or who have played games with me in the past will quickly catch on that something is off. In this game, if I were scum, I could have probably gotten away (for a while, anyway) with playing against my meta. A single replacement who has played with me in the past, though, and that sort of ruse would go out the window.

So what I am saying is that building rapport is a strong component of my town game that I have to try to carry off when scum. It's up to you to decide whether the rapport building feels genuine or not.

Response

Most of my early game reads are based on nuances of communication, psychology, and logic. Mid to late game, I tend to switch over to interactions between players, vote patterns/analysis, but the reliance on the former components remains. We all play mafia differently, and I can appreciate that 100%. You and I have vastly different styles.

Sometimes my posts may seem denigrating, rude, or abrasive. Usually this is by design, to elicit a different response... like a response under duress. When heat is applied, some people reveal more of their true colors. That said, I do try to back it off if it makes the game less enjoyable for somebody (which it appears I may have done in this case with you.)

An example of nuance that piques my interest... you made mention of a

conversation

with Lynx about Sikon. There was very little content, as I pointed out, from either of you about Sikon. I reread both of your ISO's thoroughly, saw a couple very brief comments, and shared my analysis. It sounded as if you were making a mountain out of a molehill. (a full conversation vs a sentence.) In my experience, scum like to obfuscate by exaggerating, restating cases incorrectly, or generally muddying the waters. It seemed scummy, as I mentioned/narrated it, and your response did not pass my litmus test. I genuinely wondered if saying Sikon was a Freudian slip... if in fact you meant to say iamking or jasonwazza or somebody else.

As far as narrative, I can see your point. But that is my way of sharing my thoughts and reads based on my observations, digging, and analysis. Some of the concepts aren't easy to convey, so I give them context.

No need to tone down the snark with me though, I don't mind. Also, I still think you're mafia.

It was a conversation. Sometimes I use the term "exchange". When I do, it's because I feel that the players have their guards up with each other. From my side, there was no guardedness with Lynx. I was (and am) quite open to the possibility that she is town.

The back and forth with Cheery Dog is an exchange.

The point bauss raised here was about why you said the conversation was about me (i.e. when I was only briefly mentioned, and there were other players who had come up more prominently in it), not why you used the word conversation. Explaining the semantics of how you use the word conversation seems like you're dodging the question. That further undermines my confidence in you.[/quote]

To me, our conversation about you, though short, was important. I disagreed with Lynx's take on your posts and I wanted her to rethink. The number of sentences or number of posts that mentioned you was not significant.

[fferyllt]

^^ Messed up the quote tags. The last paragraph after the 2nd quote block is my reply.

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: sik

shhh....I'm lurking

[fferyllt]

VOTE: sik

shhh....I'm lurking

Hey, if you stop lurking maybe we could talk about the game?

[likeabauss]

Jasonwazza

I'll be honest there is something about this game that just makes it meh to read.

How does this fit in with your activity observation?

[likeabauss]

Also, if we can't/won't hang Fferyllt... I'm perfectly happy hanging Trollie for being absolutely useless.

[fferyllt]

Cheery Dog

Prior to his replacing in, I had put my vote on his predecessor, iamkingdavid. My iso analysis of iamkingdavid is here: 142. I did a partial reset on the slot with Cheery's arrival.

Cheery's catch-up post 183 is pretty long for such a short game thread. He commented it may be his longest catch up post ever, which given the thread length strikes an odd note. He was also pretty indirect about most of his reads. I pointed this out, and he clarified his reads in post 195.

In 203 he says that he doesn't like jasonwazza's caps vote. his read of caps is null-ish.

216, 223 he engags with bauss, who he is voting.

Other than interaction with bauss and with me (which I initiated and which I keep going) his one post to another player was to answer capslock's question about vote counts.

His involvement in the thread is better than that of his predecessor, which is not saying much.

I'm still leaning scum on this slot.