Newbie 1390 -- Game Over

[Derivan]

Ok Cabd I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for the time being. There's a lot of good logical points raised
UNVOTE: cabd

I'll need to think on stuff but I'd be leaning towards Best or Deri for now.

Interesting. At the very beginning of the game you gave me a slight scum read for the RVS logic, the in post 271 you moved me to null. In post 358 you again gave me a null read. Now you have reversed your read and have me down as scum. To quote you:

So I went from null to scummiest....

@Guyett
Would love to hear some actual evidence and support for your latest reads. Why do you think Cabd is no longer scummy? Why do you still find best scummy?

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.09

Derivan - 3 - Fegelein, goodmorning, bestwillcui
Cabd - 1 - JasonWazza
Guyett - 1 - ryhx
bestwillcui - 1 - TheGarantula

Not Voting: Cabd, Derivan, Guyett

Deadline: (expired on 2013-06-28 02:37:53)

V/LA: ...

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Cabd]

Crap. Time is running out.

I don't like the deri wagon either. Can we make this happen?

VOTE: best

[JasonWazza]

Ergh, deadline so close, Deri sadly seems like a shit wagon.

UNVOTE: Cabd
VOTE: bestwilcui

fuck this town for making me do that.

[ryhx]

I called him out for wishy-washy play and how asking about hammering looked bad. I think he has made some very poor plays, but could not find a scum motivation in his moves after re-reading him. I still don't think he is scum at the moment, but with his poor play/confusing moves I moved him down to a null read in Post 414.

Was it not logical for me to move my vote to the next scummiest person on my read list? You shifted your vote from GM to Guyett in a very similar manner after putting them both on your list of potential scum in Post 266 (where you also called Cabd scummy) after stating that GM cleared up your questions about her. Pot, kettle.

Cabd had been stalling for over a week and there have been multiple people calling him out on in. Post 257 I made just before you replaced in, then the site went down. As soon as I saw the site was back up I made Post 319. I did reverse my read of Cabd and have moved him to a null read due to the content of his last posts.

@Rhyx
When have I ever put anything but a slight town read on Guyett? Where did I promise reads where I did not follow through on? What reason do you have to misrep?

I will finish up with the rest of my ISOs and reads tonight.

I'm not sure why you're asking about Guyett, I've not said that you put a scum read on Guyett?

You promised an updated read list to come after I posted in 257 which you even linked up there. Counting the partial ISOs as a read list, you've only just delivered. I didn't misrep.

Its true you did have Cabd on your read list in 191, I hadn't realized that and I only remembered you going on about Jason/Feg. That said its not like you gave any reason then for your scum read, though perhaps it can be implied from your previous post that its for his 'filler' posts. Your next post of substance is a 100 posts later at 319, where you call out Cabd for not responding to your post ages ago (147) although there's not really anything there for him to respond to, which is rather weak. In retrospect you having Cabd on your scum list some time before and voting him next isn't as opportunistic as initially seemed and the server downtime made your absence artificially longer perhaps so it made it seem more suspicious.

[TheGarantula]

People on the Derivan wagon: Please, either try to make a solid case as to why he is scum or express any reservations you have towards the bestwillcui wagon. We need to lynch someone so let's figure out who is best.

[goodmorning]

I already have expressed my reservations on best: I think he is erratic newbTown. PLUS he kinda-sorta PR slipped a while back. Are we going to ignore that?

The sole reservation I would have on Deri is that he seems to be reading the game more closely than anyone else, but that could come from either side.

What I really want is still a Cabd lynch, but it seems unlikely at this point.

[Cabd]

I already have expressed my reservations on best: I think he is erratic newbTown. PLUS he kinda-sorta PR slipped a while back. Are we going to ignore that?

I covered that in my ISO.

So on my initial read posts 219 through 253 leaned town to me, but then I remembered a certain game of my past. Where scum acting in almost an identical fashion. viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25373 GO read the posts by Norfolk Enhance. Giving me a very similar feeling.
283-321 from him also reminds me of Norfolk, quite a bit, actually

[TheGarantula]

I don't really think that was a PR slip, it seemed more like a newbie who's close to being lynched flailing about.

[Derivan]

Spoiler: Feg ISO

Early posts - Mentions having burnout and brings it up more than once.
Post 56 - Poor explanation of "Semi-serious" vote for me. Changes vote to Cabd.
Post 67 - Changes opinion on Cabd, but does not switch vote.
Post 70 - Repeat of his poor explanation without any further support.
Post 86 - Makes up new reason for shifting his vote back to me. States it is because of "Manufactured" style posts.
Post 88 - Points suspicion back at Cabd and makes a claim that he is likely to bus his partner early, without support. Appears to be distancing from JW.
Post 96 - Asks his first question of the game.
Post 104 - Reacts calmly to GM vote, states town read on Guyett.
Post 114 - Unless this post was a joke, I don't understand it.
Post 158 - Restates shaky reasoning for his vote on me, does not provide support. Asks GM again about her vote.
Post 161 - Respond to GM with short non-supported answers. Claim you made a bad move because you are lazy.
Post 182 - Again you continue to point to your burnout posts earlier and claim lazyness.
Post 221 - Restate that you think I am scum, yet provide no further reasoning. Also claim that you think either Cabd or GM are scum. You say you think it is Cabd based on his weak case against Guyett. Interesting since your case is also weak. Pot, kettle.

Again, Derivan is scummy for jumping on the wagon without adding anything. Can we have more pressure on this guy?

Then:

Also, don't reveal votes as pressure, or they lose their purpose.

Seriously? Pot, kettle. Again.
Post 263 - Defend best, and state that JW looks opportunist for shifting his vote. State that I am scummy again without providing any additional reasoning. States he thinks Cabd is scummy without providing a reason.
Post 351 - Defends Guyett and states I am opportunistic without providing an example. Bases a wagon on Cabd based on Guyett's perceived townslip.
And then nothing for two days.

Conclusion: Either Feg is burned out or he is using that as an excuse to provide a small amount of content. He has contributed very little to the game in the form of reads or substantive analysis. He has stuck to his case on me with very thin (early on suspicious) reasoning. Reading Feg in ISO he does not appear that scummy. However, his interaction with GM appears like it could be a distancing play. I would like to see more content and read lists by him. Without a lot of content to go on at this point I am leaning slightly scum on him.

Spoiler: JW ISO

Early posts - RVS banter
Post 34- Strange semi-serious reasoning that isn't explained.
Post 53- Shift vote to Cabd, make case.
Post 60 to 84 - Responded to vote. Claims a misrep and that he was actively scumhunting which is a stretch.
Post 87 - State would switch vote to me, but think Cabd is more scummy.
Post 90- Call out Guyett for his read on me. Call out Gar for parroting.
Post 101- Comments on game theory. States difference between what Cabd and Feg moves.
Post 103 to 115 - Calls out Guyett for WIFOM. Calls out Cabd for not posting.
Post 121- Explains reasoning on why Cabd and Feg's moves were different and how one was scummy and one was not.
Post 122- Switches vote to best
Post 127- Calls out best for misrep and downplaying
Post 129- States best is downplaying his vote because scum would want it to mean as little as possible. Also called him out for not asking 'why'.
Post 135- Thinks Guyett didn't breadcrumb, just made a general statement. States best and Cabd are scummy, best scummier.
Post 138- Calls Cabd out for non-supported scum claim.
Post 145- Calls out best for non-supported read list.
Post 146- Calls out best for parroting Gar.
Post 151- Calls out best for stating that he bandwagon jumped.
Post 172- Calls out Guyett for townread of GM.
Post 174- States GM might be earning cheap town points for questioning the town read on herself.
Post 176- Calls out best for lurking and not providing content.
Post 238- Calls GM out for not posting read list. Calls out Cabd for not being able to name tells.
Post 252- Calls out Cabd for posting fluff.
Post 260- Requests hammer on best.
Post 261- Makes case for best hammer.
Post 308- States Cabd pointing out a town slip is scummy. States to best, no reason to crumb.
Post 353- Shifts vote to Cabd. States he is trying to make Guyett look scummy when he is not.
Post 378- Defends vote shift.
Post 380- Calls out Gar for defending Cabd
Post 387- Asks what scum motivation there is for playing the newb. Makes up statistic to support.
Post 390 to 415 - Calls out Cabd for not posting.
Post 428- Reluctantly shifts vote back to best.

Conclusion: JW builds a strong case against best and then switches to Cabd. He is then reluctant to shifts back to best or he wants to appear to be reluctant to shift back. This seems odd given his previously strong built case, but could be benign given the wishy-washy play of best. Otherwise his actions seem generally pro-town. He doesn't ask too many questions, but rather calls people on their moves or challenges them on their reads. I have him down as a null read.

These are taking awhile, going to post this for now and continue working on best and GM, should be done soon, will also post a summary at the end.

[Cabd]

If we end up no-lynching I'm wallposting wet kittens. Seriously. No lynch is bad and anyone helping no lynch happen should feel bad.

[Cabd]

Rhyx and Deri could switch to best to make a lynch happen, or vice versa, myself and somebody else could switch to deri. But best>deri between the two, for sure.

[Cabd]

Also in case I'm not able to get on again for deadline, GoodMorning's play seems very similar to Hyrule newbie that just ended, so tentative town read until otherwise. Still ISO-ing Jason's other games, and taking a looksee at feg's, because he's been less active lately and I need to be able to read him.

[TheGarantula]

Maybe the ISO posts aren't the biggest issue right now; there's only 7 hours left and no one is even at L-1. At this point I think if anyone posts without voting we can be fairly certain that they are aiming for a no-lynch.
Derivan, you've been reviewing posts. Who are you going to vote for?

[Derivan]

Spoiler: best ISO

Post 108- Calls out Guyett for "playing the newb" which he claims is a scum trait. Downplays his own suspicion.
Post 118- Calls out Guyett for WIFOM, then unvotes him.
Post 126- Posts read list. Calls out Darq for lurking. Calls me out for lurking. Gives GM a town read. Gives Cabd a null read. Gives Guyett an "interesting" read. Gives JW a scum read. Gives Gar a town read. Gives Feg a town read. Scant reasoning for all reads.
Post 149- Calls out JW for jumping BW. States Guyett is less scummy for posting.
Post 175- Asks why he is being called scum.
Post 178- Asks why people think he is lurking.
Post 219- Asks if he should role-claim.
Post 223- Responds to Guyett, states that he knows what a hammer is.
Post 226- Requests people not to hammer, until giving an intent to hammer.
Post 229- Promises read list, states he can't right now due to being on his phone at camp.
Post 254- Follows through with read list. Gives a null read on JW (kinda). Null read on Rhyx. Gives town to null at worst read for GM. Gives town to null at worst read for Feg (I guess?). Questions Fegs case against me, yet gives me a slight scum read and states I'm lurking. Gives Guyett a null read (I guess?). Say the wagon on Cabd seems over. Gives a scum read on him. States Gar's reasoning is flawed, provides no support or reason. Gives slight town read. Does not vote, says nobody is THAT scummy.
Post 254- States if someone hammers that they will be bussed next day. Requests people wait until he roleclaims to hammer.
Post 289- Asks if he is allowed to breadcrumb.
Post 310- Asks JW why there is no reason to breadcrumb.
Post 321- Votes for Guyett without providing a reason beyond his scummiest read.
Post 343- States his vote for Guyett is because I was lurking and then started posting. No other reason given.
Post 375- States his scumread on me was for lurking (I think?). States he knew there was going to be a big wagon on Cabd and didn't want to start it. States his votes on JW were OMGUS. States Guyett appears to be more scummy.
Post 392- Votes for me, states it is due to lurking. Puts a FoS on Guyett.
Post 396- States that his vote for me was a pressure vote. Wants to wait for Cabd's post.
Post 398- Suggests that we lynch Cabd if he doesn't deliver. If not someone else, most likely this means me since he is currently voting for me.
Post 420- States he no longer thinks Guyett is suspicious because he could have made lots of "site newb" mistakes.

I don't really think that was a PR slip, it seemed more like a newbie who's close to being lynched flailing about.

Conclusion: best has provided little content and given scant reasoning for his moves. Since this is a newb game that could point in either direction. He could be a fool or 'playing the fool'. I am willing to take the risk at this point vs. having a no-lynch. best is not my scummiest read, but is certainly the worst player.

VOTE: bestwillcui

Will finish with GM tomorrow, hopefully before the deadline. Got to sleep.

[Cabd]

Post 254- States if someone hammers that they will be bussed next day.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that sees something MAJORLY wrong with this line?

[Cabd]

In fact...

UNVOTE: best
VOTE: Deri

L-1. Claim.

[TheGarantula]

Is it because he said "bussed" instead of "bandwagoned"/"lynched" or because the quote in question is from post 283, not 254?

[Cabd]

The first one.

[ryhx]

Hey guys I was casing Derivan when this jumped out at me:

@everyone: Best calling other people newbs doesn't lend to the 'just a newb' theory, even though his actions/responses I agree appear newbish. It almost feels to me that he is being coached to appear more newb than he his. Anyone disagree?

To quote Cabd: Town. Fucking. Slip. amirite? Except thanks to Guyett everyone should know scum can only talk at night. And Derivan has thus far struck me as pretty conscientious and has clearly been reading the thread carefully, so I know he knows.

I initially had 2 reasons for believing it to be a townslip:
1. I've had similar thoughts about best, its easy to fall back on scumhunting logic from other mafia games, so especially if he's played on other sites where scum can talk throughout the day.
2. He didn't try to push the post into our consciousness to get someone to notice it, so it seems like a genuine slip.

Of course thats where it gets pretty WIFOM. Cause he could be a master scum planting a town slip just waiting for someone to pick it up.

I've been thinking about this for a while now and am just confusing myself and the deadline looming isn't making it better. I don't know what to think myself but with only a few hours left I want to throw this out there before its too late.

Is my reasoning for thinking its a town sliip even valid?

Also I'll be around for the deadline, so you can count on my vote to force a lynch. Since Derivan is on L-1 already I'll hold back and wait for someone to claim or I can sort out my thoughts about the above.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.10

L-1 Derivan - 4 - Fegelein, goodmorning, bestwillcui, Cabd
bestwillcui - 3 - TheGarantula, JasonWazza, Derivan
Guyett - 1 - ryhx

Not Voting: Guyett

Deadline: (expired on 2013-06-28 02:37:53)

V/LA: ...

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[TheGarantula]

Hey guys I was casing Derivan when this jumped out at me:

@everyone: Best calling other people newbs doesn't lend to the 'just a newb' theory, even though his actions/responses I agree appear newbish. It almost feels to me that he is being coached to appear more newb than he his. Anyone disagree?

To quote Cabd: Town. Fucking. Slip. amirite? Except thanks to Guyett everyone should know scum can only talk at night. And Derivan has thus far struck me as pretty conscientious and has clearly been reading the thread carefully, so I know he knows.

I initially had 2 reasons for believing it to be a townslip:
1. I've had similar thoughts about best, its easy to fall back on scumhunting logic from other mafia games, so especially if he's played on other sites where scum can talk throughout the day.
2. He didn't try to push the post into our consciousness to get someone to notice it, so it seems like a genuine slip.

Of course thats where it gets pretty WIFOM. Cause he could be a master scum planting a town slip just waiting for someone to pick it up.

I've been thinking about this for a while now and am just confusing myself and the deadline looming isn't making it better. I don't know what to think myself but with only a few hours left I want to throw this out there before its too late.

Is my reasoning for thinking its a town sliip even valid?

Also I'll be around for the deadline, so you can count on my vote to force a lynch. Since Derivan is on L-1 already I'll hold back and wait for someone to claim or I can sort out my thoughts about the above.

I read it more as this: since bestwillcui is having his anti-town play excused as just newbtown, he's purposefully trying to look

even more newbish

, not that someone was actively telling him to act newbish.

[TheGarantula]

So in essence, those calling him newbtown are the ones "coaching" him.

[ryhx]

Huh. I didn't think of that.

No..I'm not feeling that interpretation. The word coached seems like an awfully odd word to use if that were his intention.

Also oh yeah I can do this:
VOTE: bestwillcui
Someone claim.

[JasonWazza]

Fucking hell, Deri claim

Just under 4 hours.

P-Edit: Not sure we can lynch Best at this point which sucks.