Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[StubbsKVM]

Aw, the post where Generic voted Antagon is also gone.

Eager to get rid of him?

You suspect Antagon and blame someone for wanting pressure on him?

Screw it, I'm not happy with the hand waving away if the claim at L-2, but I am feeling like its time to trust the gut.

vote nachomamma

How come exactly? I'm not convinced he's town but there's others around i find more suspicious.

Agreed.

Hmmm, well neither of them are voting on a bandwagon, Antagon is voting James May alone and Nacho is still voting Gen_wolf. I can't tell if they're busy or just not interested in the game. Not to put on panic mode, but time is getting short now and we'll have to make a decision on who to lynch pretty soon.

Yet you called Miss Stranger "eager to get rid of Antagon" just a few posts ago.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

So you now want to lynch Nacho, when just a few posts ago, you had others to find more suspicious?

In fact I'm so annoyed by that play,

unvote, vote antagon

antagon is now at L-1

What are you doing? You've changed your vote a hundred times we had enough pressure to get a real response out of nacho.

Why are you complaining? Wasn't Antagon higher on your suspicion list? Pressure him!

Well...
Finally found time to reread that part.
Some of that was already pointed out by Generic.


Feel it:
Why did you go off at Generic when he was adding pressure to one of your suspects?
Why did you want to hammer Nacho so soon?
Why did you call Miss Stranger "eager to get rid off Antagon" when you were obviously eager to end the day yourself?

Generic:
Sorry, as stated before, I had to read up on that part.

[Feel It]

So you lied about being willing to hammer him?

Not a great start feel it but ok.

And then you say moving your vote loses pressure on antagon. But antagons reaction to being at L-2 was a desperate jump on the other wagon to bring him out of the firing line, when we were nowhere near the deadline. And when I acted on that you seemed to react o it negatively. Yet my moved ADDED pressure to your bigger suspect.

Am I the only one finding this story to not add up? If I am I will stop wasting my time on something I have clearly read totally wrong, but to me feel it thinks antagon is more suspicious and in need of pressure but when he reacted badly and I applied more to him feel it took issue.

And this push on nacho you desired, he responded without needing to be at L-1, and with far more analysis in the game than anyone else. Put that against what antagon did at L-2 and tell me I was wrong to move my vote.

The reaction had nothing to do with Antagon, it was about losing the pressure on nacho and you bw hopping again. And yes, it's easy to say in hindsight the pressure on him wasn't needed because he came back and started posting, at the time he was posting in other threads and seemed to be avoiding this one.

[Feel It]

@Stubbs:

I've answered all those questions before except for the one about Miss Stranger and I'm not repeating myself again. I asked because I was curious about her motives, like the question suggests.

[champinoman]

Quick update: I was 80% through writing a reply when my Internet died. Luckily I've managed to save the post but I won't be able to post it until I get to work tomorrow in roughly 9 hours from now. I'll try and get in early to cover anything that happens overnight too. Apologies but there's not much I can do other than curse my ISP.

ok, here is what I had prepared last night. Haven't had a chance to read through anything since this post though.

-----------------------

Lots of new stuff today I'll start working my way through it and hopefully have enough time to make it all the way.

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

Antagon's also posted quite a few times in between Gen_Wolf's two catchup posts. Don't you think that has anything to do with it?

If so, then why hasn't he posted anything about it? If you are going to change your vote then I expect to at least have a little bit of reasoning in there somewhere.

The following 2 posts I found really insightful as they shared a perspective that I hadn't really thought of when I asked "what else could Antagon do" in regards to his change in vote to put Nacho at L-1:

Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.

Again, false dichotomy. There are three days left, and you haven't done your promised ISOs on most of the game. James May is being replaced, so that probably explains why people weren't interested in lynching him. You could also talk about other suspects and try to reiterate why you feel James May is scum, you could try to compromise with a Fegelein vote... it's not a matter of you or me; you're only treating it that way so you have an excuse to hop on my wagon.

Spoiler:

Just adding stuff through reading.

Antagon

^
gets called out for lurking, and when actually posting, adds nothing besides explaining backseat hunting.
First actual input at post 174. Congratulations.
That vote on Nacho was really bad.

Okay, then. Let's take a look at my logic:
>Put at L-1 during the crash
>James May wagon not going anywhere
>Obviously not going to support a lynch on myself, who is confirmed town to myself
>Vote Nacho
Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.
Why should it matter that the vote was seen as

opportunistic

? Would it have made a difference if I had voted Nacho earlier?
Should I have continued to park my vote on James May instead?

You shouldn't be worried of getting lynched if you're pro-town.
Voting for someone you don't think is scum to save yourself is the worst possible course of action. It will make you look bad and result in the rest of town being confused at your behaviour.

Not only will your first target likely be a mislynch. You will likely be lynched on day 2 anyway.

[/quote]
The last bolded line is really important here. I would like to see what Antagon has to say about this because in hindsight it really isn't helpful to us.

If antagon is mafia, I'm pitching either fegelein or feel it for teammate, both if its a three man team (forgot what the split was).
Feel it refused to move his vote to nacho yet was happy to post intent to hammer on him. It simply doesn't add up.

To me he wants to sit on the antagon wagon in case that ends in a lynch so he can appear a part if it, but was ready to wait for nacho to respond and then hammer him claiming the posts weren't good enough.

Two-man.
What makes Fegelein my partner?

This post concerns me because he has more interest on the links that people are seeing between himself and others instead of actually trying to convince us that he is town.

I thoroughly enjoyed this post because it clearly articulated what I was thinking when I read the exchange between Feel It and Fegelein and was laced with the amount of sarcasm it deserved. And it lead into some interesting responses from Feel It:

This is interesting because it takes a completely different path from what most people's interpretations of Gen Wolf were at the time, which is something that I normally like a lot. However, I notice that champino completely avoided actually defending Gen (or commenting on the positions people were taking on him) and instead ended up subtly defending and chainsawing Gen a bit, which I don't like because it's a roundabout way of defending a townread and normally town prefers doing things like this out in the open.

Why would I defend Gen_Wolf? As it stands I am not going to say that he is a townie, and I was even less sure about it back on page 2. I pointed out that I thought other people were reading into something a little too much and that that action on its own was not enough to lynch someone on.

Everyone in his list with the exception of Generic is null or sort of scummy. Every. Single. Person. Now, I understand a certain degree of paranoia because it's natural, but only being able to nail down a single town read doesn't feel genuine at all.

It was day 3.

You said something like this while ignoring someone like Fegelein? Really?

The post I was referring to was a conversation about Generic changing his vote from Antagon to You. I agree that the statement would apply to others as well however they were not involved in this particular exchange so I didn't include them.


Now, my primary reason for having my vote on Nacho was because I didn't think that he was actually participating in this game in a way that was helping us. After his recent contributions I believe that this issue has been put to rest and will remove my vote for the time being.

UNVOTE: Nachomamma8

[champinoman]

Hmmm, not sure what happened with the font. I guess that was in the copy/paste process.

I just read about the chainsaw defending and will concede that I did indirectly defend Gen_Wolf without really intending to. On Gen_Wolf, where is he? This is not the time of day to vanish.

@Feel It:

If Nacho had not turned up and posted what he did, would you have hammered by now? (roughly 3 days later)

[champinoman]

EBWOP:

Feel It:

If Nacho had not turned up and posted what he did and was still at L-1, would you have hammered by now? (roughly 3 days later)

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: It's just funny you find a guy a scummy who plays the same as you.

I've noticed a similarity in playstyle. Why do you think we play similarly?
Also, you missed a question.

If so, then why hasn't he posted anything about it? If you are going to change your vote then I expect to at least have a little bit of reasoning in there somewhere.

His original problems with Antagon was that he was active lurking, so that suspicion disappearing after Antagon posted a bit more really isn't all that surprising. He's also said that he's been busy lately, so it's not really a surprise that he's not explaining much.

Why would I defend Gen_Wolf? As it stands I am not going to say that he is a townie, and I was even less sure about it back on page 2. I pointed out that I thought other people were reading into something a little too much and that that action on its own was not enough to lynch someone on.

But instead of saying that you thought people were attacking him for stupid reasons, you focused in on the Feel It attack.

It was day 3.

Fair enough. What are your reads now?

[Gen_Wolf]

Oaks, will do a catch up post now will be up in a few hours

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Prodding Fegelein.

Vote Count 1.9

Fegelein - 1 (Gen_Wolf)
champinoman - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Nachomamma8 - 2 (Fegelein, Antagon)
Antagon - 3 (Miss Stranger, Feel It, StubbsKVM)
Feel It - 1 (Generic)

Not Voting - 1 (champinoman)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-06-30 08:00:00)

.

[Generic]

I want hear from antagon again.

How about you give your analysis on some people at this stage antagon.

[champinoman]

Fair enough. What are your reads now?

Nachomamma:

My vote on you was pretty simple in the fact that you weren't posting anything and I expected more from our IC in this game. Adding to this was other comments that referred to previous games you had been more involved in during the early stages and this started to put doubt in my mind to whether or not you were busy or completely ignoring the game and letting us squabble amongst ourselves. Your posts over the last 48 hours have provided the analytical view that I had expected from you much earlier and have put the doubts I had about your play to rest for the time being. If you continue to post in a similar fashion as recently then I think I will start to lean town on you because everything you have said has appeared to be genuine. However, I am being cautious at the moment and waiting to see if this trend continues. This position does mean that I am not looking at putting my vote on you for the day 1 lynch though.

StubbsKVM:

It's great to see the improvement of play after watching James May lurk and vanish. It's hard to get a read in such a few posts because the first few really only comprised of recapping what others had said. His last few posts have been good and in the right direction in terms of scum hunting. I'm looking forward to trying to get a more accurate read on you over the early stages of day 2 (considering day 1 is very short for you).

I'm a little unsure about how much of James May's posts to read into when looking at my read on StubbsKVM. Maybe someone would like to share their opinion on that if they have any good tips?

Generic:

Not much really needs to be said here. I think that he has played a pretty consistent role so far and have been actively trying to scum hunt for the entire day. I maintain my from my first reads that he is the strongest town read here.

Miss Stranger:

I shared my view on Miss Stranger recently (although not in a reads list) and haven't changed my mind since then. I think that the reasons that she seemed scummy in the early stages were actually attributed to her over eagerness to be involved in everything happening and saying everything that popped into her head. Unfortunately for the rest of us, our suspicions about her actions seemed to have caused her to stop posting as much and I think this might be a disservice to us in the long run. I would put Miss Stranger up into 2nd in my town reads so far, just below Generic.

Gen_Wolf

and

Fegelein:

How are we expected to get decent reads on people when they don't post anything in the last week. There have been 3 meaningful posts between them. I'll have another look at them both tomorrow and look back at their play over the first week. No time to do it right now.

Feel It:

Your insistence that Gen_Wolf was trying to get a quick lynch on the first page irked me a little. But since then I hadn't had anything to really concern me about you until the recent events that Generic has been following up. Your (fake) intent to hammer has alarm bells going off everywhere. I said at the time that it appeared like you were trying to fish for a PR and I'm not unconvinced of that at the moment with your explanation (being that it would save him from a lynch [even though it would result in a NK of a PR]). A PR should only be revealed if it is confirmed that the person is 100% going to be lynched and you have admitted that this was never going to be the case. You weren't even willing to move your vote across to get him back to L-1 when Generic moved his vote. I really don't like your answer in 268 either. Generic is giving an example of a possibility and you accuse him of inaccurately forcing a META analysis on you. I currently believe that you are leaning scum.

Antagon:

The opportunistic jump across onto Nacho at the time looked to me like nothing more than the standard play. However, through discussions we have heard how this isn't actually a good town play as it may result in 2 mislynches instead of just the 1. You were around to read these posts and have even conceded that Nacho isn't really one of your top scum targets, yet your vote remains on Nacho. You're continuing to just lurk and only answer questions when they are asked directly of you and not getting yourself involved at a deeper level than self preservation. Leaning scum as well and probably #1 lynch candidate for me at this time, however I will hold my vote for 12 hours in the hope you get online and convince me otherwise. (can't hold any longer as I want to allow over 24 hours for a claim IF it comes to that)

-----------------

@Antagon:

Can you please provide your comments on every player please before the deadline. If you end up getting lynched then we want to have an up to date list of your thoughts to reflect on.

@Gen_Wolf:

I feel Antagon is town, I do not see the case on him being valid. Thus if I had to hammer it would not be him. I also see Nacho is at L-1 and I would hammer him over Anta, I do however think fegelin is scum, I don't like his play and considering we have 5 days left there is no need to rush.

Unvote

Vote: Fegelin

Can you please share your current thoughts on this. Why do you think Fegelein is scum? Do you still consider Nacho a better lynch than Antagon? Do you still feel Antagon is town?

[StubbsKVM]

I'm a little unsure about how much of James May's posts to read into when looking at my read on StubbsKVM. Maybe someone would like to share their opinion on that if they have any good tips?

I think you should definitely keep James May's attitude in mind, especially if you thought he was scummy. If I am unable to change your mind by posting, then there is probably a reason for that. If your read was close to zero, you'll probably automatically forget them as the game goes on.

At least that's what I think.

[Antagon]

Antagon - I originally felt uncomfortable with lynching Antagon because the case on him was essentially "he's lurking, meaning he's either busy or scum" which is lazy and weak reasoning. But his recent hop on my wagon sent up a major red flag, and there are plenty of things that I don't like in his ISO:

Overall, Antagon is scummy as fuck and makes for a wonderful lynch. I think it's about getting to be claim time on that one.

I currently think they are as useless as each other and am having trouble deciding which one deserves it more. I'm not even worried if they aren't scum because they are useless townies anyway. So much for having IC and SE players to teach us all how to play and guide us.

You said something like this while ignoring someone like Fegelein? Really?

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

This is a STRONG misrep, considering you somehow missed all those posts Antagon made in the middle. So yeah, it makes sense if his reads shift a bit.

Wait, what? Why did you explicitly say that "Antagon is scummy as fuck and should be lynched" so that you would suddenly change to championman?
As town, the only reason you would suddenly change your reads on a dime is to avoid being accused of tunneling. That is not the case. Before Nacho's long absence, he did not say that I was scum and should be lynched.
Why is Nacho suddenly distancing from my wagon?
Because I'm town and he knows it.
Who else would make a wall post to say "Antagon is scum" and not vote for him? Who would jump to someone completely unrelated? Someone who knows that I will flip town and wants to ensure that he doesn't get credit for my lynch by not being on my wagon. a.k.a. scum.

[Fegelein]

God, I have no motivation to do anything atm, let alone play Mafia.

I'll try and make a post tomorrow or tonight.

[Generic]

Ok, with under two days left this is still a clusterfuck.

Antagon, one more chance. Short snalydis of the rest of us or at the very least your top two and your bottom two.

I still maintain the best lynch is feel it, but if I am still the only one who thinks this is the best option in the next 24hours I will assess a secondary vote, because I think letting deadline decide the lynch is a cop out. Lets think this through guys, we have the following options:
Fegelein
Champino
Nacho
Antagon
Feel it.

Unless we have a major slip from someone else time is against us for a whole new case. I will present my feel it case later, I as use gen wolf to either present the fegelein case or move his vote.
Nacho, lets see the summary champino case, and then so done on the nacho and antagon wagons present those cases.

We put the short summary cases together, we each devise who is the best lynch other than our current vote if we are voting and then see if one player features in the majority of people's top two. That's the guy who goes in my opinion.

[Generic]

I as use = I ask you

So done = someone

[Miss Stranger]

@champinoman:

I'm glad to see his paranoia is finally dispersing. These reads are way better than the ones on page 3. (I really should make a table with everyone's reads so we can compare them easily).
I have a question, in regards to Antagon:

The opportunistic jump across onto Nacho at the time looked to me like nothing more than the standard play.

Standard play for what?

Oh, and to add to champino's statement: Antagon has held the same level of involvement pretty much regardless of the number of votes on him. Is it normal for town to be this apathetic before lynch? From what I know, D1 lynches should be at least informative, if not getting us rid of mafia. What information are we going to get from Antagon if he flips town? Sure, we can reinspect D1 and see what he said, knowing he's clear, but would that even get us anywhere? I think a townsided player would try to share as much information as possible to at least guide us a little bit in D2. Antagon's denial of any further information is IMO a new scum read.

@Antagon:

Wait, what? Why did you explicitly say that "Antagon is scummy as fuck and should be lynched" so that you would suddenly change to championman?
As town, the only reason you would suddenly change your reads on a dime is to avoid being accused of tunneling. That is not the case. Before Nacho's long absence, he did not say that I was scum and should be lynched.
Why is Nacho suddenly distancing from my wagon?
Because I'm town and he knows it.
Who else would make a wall post to say "Antagon is scum" and not vote for him? Who would jump to someone completely unrelated? Someone who knows that I will flip town and wants to ensure that he doesn't get credit for my lynch by not being on my wagon. a.k.a. scum.

I think this is a little myopic. Nachomamma was doing ISO's at that point and posting reads one by one. He was focused on you, then suddenly noticed something alarming about champinoman and reacted immediately.

@Feel It:

Okay, I admit I was sort of occupied last few days (boyfriend being home and stuff) so I mostly scanned posts straight in a line, which is why I wasn't quite sure what was going on there. It's pretty obvious however if one reads Feel It's posts in isolation.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

What are you doing? You've changed your vote a hundred times we had enough pressure to get a real response out of nacho.

Implications everywhere. I'm not voting for him because I have a slight preference for the Antagon lynch, it's not an issue of getting my hands dirty.

I gave intent (which is a lot different than actually hammering him) because I'm also willing to lynch Nacho. Like I said I'd prefer Antagon but Nacho hasn't been very town either.

So basically, while voting Antagon, he threatens to hammer Nacho, gets upset when Generic changes from Nacho to Antagon (but he himself doesn't change) and explains it with preferring Antagon. This is his explanation:

I wasn't going to hammer him, I gave intent because he was gone and I wanted to pressure and draw him out, but then you changed your vote again which made it null. If I had then changed my vote to nacho it would be me losing pressure on the guy I'd prefer lynched (Antagon.)

Um, no, maths says the votes would be the same like in the beginning (3 on each, plus one), except you wouldn't have the hammer, therefore you wouldn't decide the lynch.

I don't think the "talk or die" intimidation explanation clicks quite well. Any sane person who cares about the game would talk long before hammered. If they don't, then they are simply AFK. Besides, you aren't the only person who can potentially hammer Nacho. Further still, if Antagon was a stronger suspect, why the hell are you upset when Generic stacks the vote pile on him? Pressure, right?

I'm not sure if I should see this as subtle opportunism, or as conformism to others' opinion (i.e. they all think Nacho is scummy, hell he has to be). The first is I think null, the second is scummy - the mafia would always want to hide amidst the crowd, and then justify their actions with crowd psychology. Nonetheless, this was murky.

[Miss Stranger]

Oh dear. I just realised Generic said pretty much exactly the same thing as I. I need to read everything before I start posting, and not just ISO's.

Uhh, anyway, currently compiling a reads table, hopefully it'll be up soon enough.

[Generic]

No worries MS, you just spared me a job.

That's the feel it case. I say we lynch him.

[champinoman]

I have a question, in regards to Antagon:

The opportunistic jump across onto Nacho at the time looked to me like nothing more than the standard play.

Standard play for what?

Someone queried Antagon's vote on Nachomamma and I asked what they expected Antagon to do because in my head I thought that if I was looking likely to be lynched I probably would have done the same thing in order to prevent a town lynch. However, Stubbs explained that all this would do is cause 2 town lynches if Nachomamma flips town because I would likely be the lynch the following day due to this play. It was something that I hadn't considered and in hindsight realise how foolish that type of play is.

The thing that makes Antagon look scummy is the fact that even after all this has been said he leaves his vote parked on Nachomamma even after conceding that he wasn't the player he considered most scummy. And now his reluctance to give reads on different players is another problem. I don't care how bad his reads post might be but not posting anything is as scummy as it gets. If he is a townie he needs his opinions written down so that when he flips we can reread and know what a confirmed townie was thinking.

@Generic:

I certainly understand your point of view when it comes to lynching Feel It. However I simply believe that Antagon is the scummiest player at the moment as stated above and that's why my vote is heading his direction.

VOTE: Antagon

This puts him at

L-1

.

[Miss Stranger]

Here's the table with reads, hopefully everything is correct, please tell me if something is not.



Also, I've asked if I'm allowed to link to google docs publication here. If I'm not, I'll update it with images in thread whenever necessary.

This is perfect as an image Stranger, it's not editable so that's great.

-Vel

[Miss Stranger]

Right-click + view image for full resolution.

[Generic]

In that case

i give intent hammer antagon before deadline

Antagon, now would be the time to give that analysis, it's what I'm placing my decision on the hammer on.

[Miss Stranger]

Antagon chose the worst possible time to be away. Please don't hammer him until he makes a final reads post or self-hammers... or the deadline expires. Eh, you got the point <.<
Reads table updated! Right-click and view image for full resolution!

[Feel It]

^generic is town, Stubbs is scummy, champ is townish and null on feg and nacho