Newbie 1388 Nexlexia Game Over

[DoctorPepper]

Hey CDB, if I didnt believe in what I was saying, then why spend half the day yesterday trying to bring this message across. If you disregard the slip, look at Titus answers and see if they are consistent with townish answers.

Heres one issue. Titus generally said that JKM is suspicious for not outing his reads. Later on, he says JKM is sooo obv town that people would be scum for voting for him
Another? Look how he answers accusations by answering the petty little details of it and not exactly the issue at hand.
Three, if I needed an easy mislynch to force, the yessirree wagon was right there at L-1 and I had permission to hammer from some people here, if I wanted an easy mislynch, I could have had it by now

[DoctorPepper]

Yeah, I said Bacde's reaction was scummy. What about it?

Looking at how no one died last night, and the IC didnt die, there are three things to consider
1) IC was protected
2) Scum know that the Ic is likely to be protected
3) IC is scum/IC got jailed.

[Titus]

What misrep? I really think that NS's behavior is a discussion worth having. However, your post almost immediately asking questions other than that is suspicious. It is an attempt to avoid discussing what should be discussed by the group. Just because YOU don't think something is suspicious doesn't mean it isn't. Scum would want attention diverted away from their teammate. Of course you didn't type my fingers to the table, but when I mention it I was expecting you to say "derailing!".

Wow... that's a flip. You start by implying that the IC was attacked, but then he wasn't. The IC not dying doesn't indicate anything. The IC could have been attacked or someone else could have been attacked. There is no reason to assume the IC was or was not attacked. He is a player like anyone else.

I was meaning to mention all possibles. I did forget the jailkeeper. My mistake there. However, it is best to start from all hypothetically possibilities and work your way backwards. Paraphrasing Sherlock Holmes, "When you eliminate the impossible, you are left with the truth no matter how improbable it may be". All possibilities, however remote, should be mentioned with that philosphy.

Either you are scum covering for NS or your total ignorance of NS's behavior is very poor scumhunting. I can't see a third option there. Care to enlighten me?


On a random note, I totally see you've drawn attention to Bacde (alleging his response to the no death might be scummy), me, CDB and Bob. Why so many FoSes on day 2? FoSes should come with evidence.


@CDB, really quite long day 1? Should that matter? Wouldn't it be better to extend the day and avoid a mislynch? You and I both had our doubts but NS quickly runs a con game on JKM to get him to give up the hammer at the end. That's how I see it at least. Don't think... gee I'm glad it's over is a good thing unless you're certain no investigation is to be done. That's not the same as no disagreement. You should have an unsettled feeling CDB.

I was hoping to try and make amends with Dr. Pepper today, given a confirmed town thought he was town. However, his behavior leaves me no choice.

VOTE: Dr. Pepper

Responding to Dr. Pepper's post in a moment.

[ChannelDelibird]

Titus, while I agree that it's good to take time enough to develop reads properly, there is such a thing as the too-long day. I wouldn't call yesterday too long for the game at large but for me, given that I was struggling to get my teeth into it, I'd probably have got more out of it ending more quickly in the yessiree lynch that looked likely several pages before it actually happened and then going from there.

Again; I wouldn't call yesterday "too long" but, from anecdotal evidence of scanning The Road to Rome now and then, I do think that 24 pages is "really quite long" for Day 1 in a Newbie game, comparatively.

[DoctorPepper]

Maybe thats how you play scum, but thats not how I play scum. Exactly what relation does this have to anything, you claim I stopped discussion when you clearly did not start it at all. That in itself was scummy to blame me for something you didnt do.

I get the feeling your not reading mypost correctly, you just see something and say something dogmatic like "I believe we should never end days early" or "The IC is a player just like anyone else" and repeating it over and over again. You totally ignore my explanations. I do not want to repeat myself, its getting irritating.

Wait wait wait, when did I eliminate a possibility.

And if you are so confident in me being scum with NS, why tunnel me only and not provide analysis of him. This is evidenced by your behavior in Day 1, twilight and your accusation that I "supposedly stopped people from talking about NS's hammer" when it was easy for you to do it yourself.

Its called entertaining all possibilities and I have my reasons for suspecting Bacde (although I believe its more likely that he was targetted and doctor protected, thus implicating the newbs out as scum)

Who is confirmed town? Who is confirmed town? I think I know where this is going.

[DoctorPepper]

Also, you are calling it too long, when you say "you shouldnt end days early"
Lol whut?

[ChannelDelibird]

DocPep, I will look again at Titus as you ask after food.

However, I do want to say that I don't think we should be openly speculating as to why an IC didn't die. I'm all for analysing why players who die at night were killed but there are so many possibilities about last night that it won't get us far, especially as we don't even have a particular player dead to consider. 'Why did the scum target this player?' is more instructive than 'Take this player and consider why they may or may not have been targeted by the mafia kill or by town power roles'. I think we are more likely to risk giving scum information about what powers we have than we are to learn anything that will help us significantly at this stage in the game.

[DoctorPepper]

I have a theory. Bacde did not die. Titus tried to kill Bacde, for some reason (maybe he was Bp, maybe doc protect, maybe JK) Bacde did not die.
The only person who gave me a town read was Bacde
Titus says a confirmed town called me town
No one else knows who is confirmed.
Slip.

VOTE: Titus

[ChannelDelibird]

too long

I think you're conflating things that Titus and I are saying into one confused sentence. I don't see either of us saying both of these things.

[DoctorPepper]

From experience, I've seen the IC die first a lot, the IC get protected sometimes, people accuse the IC of being scum for not dying often and the Ic being scum rarely, which is why I thought it would be worth some analysis

[DoctorPepper]

I was hoping to try and make amends with Dr. Pepper today, given a confirmed town thought he was town. However, his behavior leaves me no choice.
.

CDB this might be all you need here. Why is anyone confirmed town?

[Titus]

Yeah, I said Bacde's reaction was scummy. What about it?

Looking at how no one died last night, and the IC didnt die, there are three things to consider
1) IC was protected
2) Scum know that the Ic is likely to be protected
3) IC is scum/IC got jailed.

If you combine one and two, which any

experienced

player would do, why did you expect the IC to die? That is NOT consistent with being surprised the IC is alive on day 2 and scum being experienced. You are trying to fit your reasoning into me being scum.

Note three is two separate scenarios and should be treated as such.

3a) The IC is scum & jailed

Looking at probable game mechanics, the IC being scum and jailed is not going to create an no death situation at all. It would need either a doctor or a bulletproof as well. The scum would have to PM the host with who was doing the attacking. Would the mafia really send the guy who said NOTHING in night chat to perform the kill? That makes no sense. If scum was in jail and had access to night chat (which I cannot see happening), then the mafia deliberately planned to send the guy who was in jail for a kill. That's pretty much a no kill scenario.

3b) The IC is town and & jailed

Again, this scenario supposes the IC was attacked. Otherwise, it's totally bloody irrelevant.

------------------

@CDB, most of that day must have been spammish type posts then. There was little after I arrived because someone was directing traffic and asking pointed questions. With so much spam to read, that's an easier way to convince people to get a mislynch over with. I understand you think you would have gotten more out of it by ending it quickly, I think this is a mistake to do. People who try to convince you a mislynch when you have reservations is a good idea are usually scum IMO.

---

@Doctor Pepper, under what planet is my openly discussing NS's suspicious day ending hammer not providing an analysis of him?

I do believe the IC not dying should be discussed. I never said it shouldn't be discussed. I was just saying that there's many possible scenarios. Why are you assuming that the IC was attacked (which you pretty much said is a newbie manuever) and experienced scum? The two assertions appear to be inconsistent.

Umm, the confirmed town was Yessiree who is in the graveyard. At the very end of day 1 he called us both town and said not to quibble over the small stuff.

[Titus]

yeah I have townreads on you and DoctorPepper. I think you guys are arguing over silly, minute details that isn't really gonna benefit the town in terms of scum-hunting. Try to broaden your view on the entire playing field, I think you both can do much better.

This is the post I was referring to.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm more confused about where I stand between DocPep and Titus now than I was at the start of the day. Will look back again this evening; clearly got some thinking to do.

[DoctorPepper]

I forgot about yessirree and I thought you immediately thought about Bacde.

[DoctorPepper]

I honestly have no idea what youre talking about, the mafia being jailed only pertains to him killing. It does not affect night discussion.
Youre twisting my words here, it literally means that the IC was the one who made the kill and was killed. Your making rebuttals that prove nothing here Titus,

Under what planet was I "stopping discussion"?

[Titus]

Dr. Pepper, you saw that post about confirmed town as a "slip" because you already saw me as scum. Supposing you weren't scum (big huge assumption on my part but I'm trying to "broaden my view" as Yessiree said) and looking to twist what I was saying into "slips", then is it possible that whatever you saw as a slip previously was just fueled by your assumptions that I was scum than actual reality? You've clearly made that mistake once. I'm asking you to reread the day and come back. See if you reach the same conclusions.

Jailing on my other site generally would remove a person from the night discussion. I analyzed the analysis either way, because I wasn't sure how the mechanic worked here. I can't see the scum, being able to communicate that they are in jail, sending the guy in jail for a night kill. They'd just no kill. Sending the guy in jail opens him up to a tracker. That's even supposing their IS a jailor which is a huge assumption.

[DoctorPepper]

Am I assuming anything by the way? I gave four possible outcomes and never once said "The IC didnt die because this and only this" and scum doesnt know if theyve been jailed

Problem with your analysis. I cant see you as scum if you think I am scum. Thats where the logic doesnt hit you. You keep saying things like "you think youre right" instead of "i know youre wrong about me being scum" or "because you saw me as scum" not "because youre forcing that I am scum" the thing is, town would have legit conviction in their statements. Scum would end up accidentally saying things like this, they say this because they know players alignment's. they have no conviction for what they are saying, they say things like "you thnk youre right" instead. That to me is looking at the motivations of the post itself. Youre basically saying I'm town because scum would have no need to see someone as scum

[Titus]

Wait... scum doesn't know if they are jailed? What kind of setup is this? Note: For those of you curious, I play on sc2mafia.com. There, jailing removes from the nightchat. Jailors can also execute but that was obviously missing from the rolecard PM. I assumed when someone is hauled off to jail, they'd be aware of it. Logically, that just goes with being jailed. --- Obviously, my analysis on what happened with the jailing assumed the jailed victim knew they were jailed. I'll have to reanalyze that.

Dr. Pepper, you're quibbling about my words. However, if I said "I know you're wrong because I'm town", you'd be arguing that I'd be vouching for myself as an attempt to appear pro town. I'm trying to guide you using your own logic. That's much easier to do with a smart analyzer like yourself who is having a big lapse in judgment. I've pretty much done a more formal, polite way of saying what you expect me to say. I'm highlighting the flaws in your logic. Your refusal to even go back and reread to see if you are mistaken highlights you as scum. Town should have no problem reevaluating their premises, if they weren't just tunnelling. The fact you refused all but confirms you intended me as the mislynch.

[Titus]

Under what planet was I "stopping discussion"?

I realized I missed this.

You were pre-emptively stopping discussion over how Day 1 ended by steering the conversation anywhere BUT NS. You say Bacade, CDS and myself are all scummy very quickly today. Yet you refuse to even discuss the possibility of NS being scum. Why? You should be looking at every possibility before being certain as to your scum target. You refuse to look. Why? Because you are scum.

[Titus]

Note: I have to leave in a half hour for awhile. Not sure when I'll be back but probably some point this US evening.

[DoctorPepper]

Why do I intend for you to be a mislynch? thats a weak excuse. The thing is, if you claim that I think your scum, then you pretty much say "I know youre not scum" because scum finds no reason to think other people are scum, unless they are partners. His is one detail people have overlooked. You basically say things that implicate me not being scum. So you know Im town

Wait wait. So if I dont think Im mistaken, it means Im scum? Thats what you say by "your refusal to go back and reread to see if you are mistaken highlights you as scum" how exactly??

I am done arguing with you. We've gone around in circles for nothing significant and I think I've made a case for you being scum which I truly believe in. I do wish Bob was here so I can prove he is scum too.

Maybe its because NS hasnt talked yet and I have no problem with his hammer, I never freaking called CDB scummy (misrep meter reaches infinity!), and I never stopped you from talking about NS. I never steered the conversation away and if you think he's scummy, its not my responsibility to bring it up because I do not think he is scummy.

[DoctorPepper]

That never answered stopping discussion. Was I a dictator who said "NO DO NOT TALK ABOUT NS TODAY!"?

[Titus]

Why do I intend for you to be a mislynch? thats a weak excuse. The thing is, if you claim that I think your scum, then you pretty much say "I know youre not scum" because scum finds no reason to think other people are scum, unless they are partners. His is one detail people have overlooked. You basically say things that implicate me not being scum. So you know Im town

I was starting from that position to disprove it. That's a common logical argument. I was starting from the hopeful position that you were town. I don't like thinking someone as smart as you is scum. However, your refusal to revisit the issue after I definitively disproved one of your alleged "slips" confirms that you were never intending to scumhunt at all. If you were and mistaken, you'd have no problem verifying your thoughts. I cannot make that argument more apparent without starting from that position.

Here's an abstract, non-threatening example. You are given an item in a box. You know it's either red or green. You know that all red items are rough. So you start reaching into the box, expecting it to be rough. If it's rough, you cannot tell if it's green or red. However, to your surprise, it is soft. Because it is soft, you know it cannot be red. It is green.

Here, I started from the position that you were analyzing. If you were, you'd go back and revisit something when one of your premises was proven untrue. Yet, you did not. Why?

=====================================

Wait wait. So if I dont think Im mistaken, it means Im scum? Thats what you say by "your refusal to go back and reread to see if you are mistaken highlights you as scum" how exactly??

One of your proposed "slips" was nothing more than a misunderstanding. I asked you to revisit to see if your other slips would be nothing more than misunderstanding. You should have no problem revisiting and looking at your conclusion again if you are town. You have a problem with revisiting this because you know NOTHING supports your conclusion.

========================

I am done arguing with you. We've gone around in circles for nothing significant and I think I've made a case for you being scum which I truly believe in. I do wish Bob was here so I can prove he is scum too.

Done arguing with me? Really, this just sounds like what you say when you want me to shut up. I've offered you "peace offerings". You say such attempts are scummy and attempts to divert attention away. Yet you repeatedly do this yourself.
========================

Maybe its because NS hasnt talked yet and I have no problem with his hammer, I never freaking called CDB scummy (misrep meter reaches infinity!), and I never stopped you from talking about NS. I never steered the conversation away and if you think he's scummy, its not my responsibility to bring it up because I do not think he is scummy.[/quote]

Haha. Like I said, premptive attempt to make sure we don't discuss what NS did. You think that you can just sweep an action under the rug as not scummy. He unvoted, which caused JKM to vote and keep Yessiree at L-1. Then he immediately hammers. He wanted a quick resolution to that day before Channel could respond.

=================

BTW, CDB is totally posting on other forums but not this one.

That's the post where you are trying to draw attention to Channel. Why? If he's posting in other forums but not this one, why did you feel a need to draw attention to it? You're wanting people to think he's taking time to make up an answer rather than posting his unvarished opinion. That's bullshit. Let people post at their own speed. Call them out if they are not posting at all. But a time lapse, good lord.

Also, you are calling it too long, when you say "you shouldnt end days early"
Lol whut?

This post here is also an attack post. You're not looking at his logic at all, but merely discrediting him. His posts were clear that while ending the day early can be suspicious, he was arguing that it wasn't true in NS's case. Yet, you felt the need to discredit him anyway. Why?

=======================

Obviously, you are not going to say, do not discuss NS's suspicious behavior. Duh! So you want to turn the attention to your mislynch target as fast as possible.

[DoctorPepper]

I only said he's posting on other forums. I wasnt calling him scummy, I wanted him to post. So calling inactives/lurkers out is scummy?

I was discrediting you with that too long post.

So stubborness is a scum tell, because obviously town would never be stubborn, is that what you are saying?
Your example is bullshit and has nothing to do with whats happening, youre calling me scummy for something both town and scum do because I do not think I was proven wrong and even then,mjust because I am stubborn, it doesnt mean I am scummy.

Wait. So when JKM and NS agreed to hammer, JKM was obv town (when he claimed hammer vote and agreed on a yessirree lynch) but NS is scummy. So i dont think he is scummy, it means Im preemptively trying to stop you from discussing what he did when Im not preventing you at all, Im just saying I see no problem with it. If you want to discuss it, I am not stopping you.

Holy fuck this is so obvious, im going to bed before I get even more pissed off.