Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Elyse]

I agree with Venmar's post. Here's a townread for you!

And...
FoS: Venmar since this post just now gave me mad scumvibes.
What AP said about experience etc. weren't even part of his case. You're trying too hard to shoot it down.
And you're asking "Why does it matter" on a "Why does it matter" post? Wtf?

Are you just going to FoS anyone that disagrees with you?

And asking "Why does it matter?" when AP included vote tags in his case against is very valid. It seemed like he was bumping up his case to make it seem more solid that it really was.

To be fair, Wisdom was coming off very arrogant and very hard to deal and talk with, so the outrage is very understandable because I can relate.

Tell me this;
Let's say I am arrogant and hard to deal with.
Isn't it a great opportunity for scum to

fake

outrage on such a player? If they don't fake it on such a player, where will they fake it? On players that it would be less believable?

I find this similar to your previous argument to Amrun scum as well. "Amrun is outraged." "Town get outraged." "Scum want to seem town." "Amrun is faking outrage." Why isn't she just a little annoyed with your tone? Why is she faking it?

It was a very bad thing to say? So you agree that more experience necessarily means more skill? If that's so we should all just sheep the player with the oldest joindate and do nothing else, yes?

This is just a really bad conclusion. Doesn't make any sense with what Venmar said.

P-edit: NO CHALLENGES YET.

[pirate mollie]

Enomis is likely scum

where are you coming up with this stuff I don't get it

[pirate mollie]

And implies she is town for speculating on all this common sense and AtF in the first place? No.

Town typically doesn't argue bullshit with someone they think is town

.

that isn't true and you know it. people get into dumb arguments all of the time over stupid stuff cos it is more important for them to be right than to focus on the game and play well for their team

ap you felt really good last night what happened

[Wisdom]

Are you just going to FoS anyone that disagrees with you?

Nope; there are other ways to disagree than call me scum and hard-defend Amrun, with points that don't even make sense.
But since we're on the subject:

I agree with Venmar's post. Here's a townread for you!

Why do you townread everyone that you agree with?

And asking "Why does it matter?" when AP included vote tags in his case against is very valid. It seemed like he was bumping up his case to make it seem more solid that it really was.

What? AP asked Amrun what do votetags matter (just like I said that they're useless exactly after she made her first post), and Venmar quoted his "why does it matter" and asked why does it matter. I don't understand that.

I find this similar to your previous argument to Amrun scum as well. "Amrun is outraged." "Town get outraged." "Scum want to seem town." "Amrun is faking outrage." Why isn't she just a little annoyed with your tone? Why is she faking it?

It has already been explained; she changed tones too quickly, she went from noob to scum to town too quickly, and her "outrage" did not even seem like an outrage, but more like frustration. The point is that she cannot be called town for that, as scum could easily fake it in such a case.

This is just a really bad conclusion. Doesn't make any sense with what Venmar said.

You need to reread then, because that's exactly what Venmar said. Read my post after that too.

[Venmar]

I DO have a life, so i'm leaving this thread for a while, thank you very much.

[pirate mollie]

Why do you want to talk to Majiffy?

I want you to read this question slowly and then come back and tell me why it is stupid

mollie, you said this towards the beginning of the game too (that you want to talk to Majiffy first), and it's stupid. You don't have to talk to Majiffy first before doing other things.

first off it NOT stupid to want to talk to your partner and feel them out cos if I townread him I will probably orient my game around him unless goes after my townreads. why are you undermining my play?

[StrangerCoug]

I need to reprogram my Logitech G510 hotkeys so the Close hotkey isn't so close to the Ctrl key...

#49: Wisdom blows off's Amrun suggestion and attacks her for it.
#56: Continued antagonism from Wisdom against Amrun.
#62: Now Wisdom's devolved into being a jerk.

Pseudo-vote: Wisdom

#75: This is an interesting post by Amrun, but right now I'm reading this as her showing restraint. Pretty townie.
#88: I'm baffled here. Wisdom says he'd do the exact same thing he's doing as

SCUM!?

What exactly is it, then, that doesn't make him scum? And—serious question open to everybody—why would anybody of any alignment say something like this?
#92: Katsuki was town in that game; therefore, using it to argue that Amrun is scum is invalid. At most, it reinforces that you think she's arrogant, which tells me little else.
#96: Context from the OP tells me there are no vengekills. Do you even think your posts through?
#103: Townie post from enomis.
#115: It makes sense that scum would want to start town off on the wrong track. I disagree with you based on Wisdom's reactions to the suggestion, but at this time I don't think you're scum with Wisdom. You're acting more rational than he is.
#136: I do that anytime there's a disproportionately high number of posts before I get a chance to post.
#143: pirate mollie didn't even pass judgment on how experience and skill correlate. The player who signed up for the site first should not be treated as God—I've been here since 2008 and I

STILL

think I could use some work on a few things.
#148: No, she was not. And the post of hers contradicting you doesn't make me the new person to follow. I think

I

have some things that need work.

[Wisdom]

It's not stupid to talk to your partner; it's stupid to wait to do that before doing anything else.
You now are doing things, so whatevs

[Wisdom]

#92: Katsuki was town in that game; therefore, using it to argue that Amrun is scum is invalid. At most, it reinforces that you think she's arrogant, which tells me little else.

Tell me I didn't read this
Did you seriously just say that my "omg she will tell us she has a scummy now" was an argument for her being scum?

[Wisdom]

#96: Context from the OP tells me there are no vengekills. Do you even think your posts through?

Are you even able to read what I'm typing?
I said that the plan about directing the challenges and therefore the lynches is similar to directing vengekills.
Didn't say there are vengekills in this game.

[Wisdom]

#143: pirate mollie didn't even pass judgment on how experience and skill correlate. The player who signed up for the site first should not be treated as God—I've been here since 2008 and I STILL think I could use some work on a few things.

Yeah that wasn't even directed at pirate mollie.
Seriously?

[Wisdom]

#148: No, she was not. And the post of hers contradicting you doesn't make me the new person to follow. I think I have some things that need work.

I'm one of the more experienced players in the game.

[quote="In post 94, Amrun I am one of the most experienced.
And it is just a basic fact. Sorry if that bothers you.
[/quote]

Yes, she did.

[Wisdom]

I disagree with you based on Wisdom's reactions to the suggestion

Also this is a very bad thing to do, and please stop doing it if you're town.
You cannot be certain of my alignment, so don't disagree with others based on what you think my alignment is.

[Wisdom]

#88: I'm baffled here. Wisdom says he'd do the exact same thing he's doing as SCUM!? What exactly is it, then, that doesn't make him scum?

The fact that I am town, maybe?

And—serious question open to everybody—why would anybody of any alignment say something like this?

So wait, you don't call me scum for that, you say that.. I don't have an alignment?

[Elyse]

Are you just going to FoS anyone that disagrees with you?

Nope; there are other ways to disagree than call me scum and hard-defend Amrun, with points that don't even make sense.
But since we're on the subject:

I didn't call you scum or hard defend Amrun. So try again?

I agree with Venmar's post. Here's a townread for you!

Why do you townread everyone that you agree with?

I don't. I only have a townread on Venmar, and it's because he said exactly what I was thinking, and I know it's coming from a town perspective. Considering you FoS'd Amrun, me, and Venmar, and I only townread Venmar, your point is invalid.

And asking "Why does it matter?" when AP included vote tags in his case against is very valid. It seemed like he was bumping up his case to make it seem more solid that it really was.

What? AP asked Amrun what do votetags matter (just like I said that they're useless exactly after she made her first post), and Venmar quoted his "why does it matter" and asked why does it matter. I don't understand that.

AP made it seem like Amrun was scummy for suggesting we format votes a certain way. Venmar asked what that mattered.

I find this similar to your previous argument to Amrun scum as well. "Amrun is outraged." "Town get outraged." "Scum want to seem town." "Amrun is faking outrage." Why isn't she just a little annoyed with your tone? Why is she faking it?

It has already been explained; she changed tones too quickly, she went from noob to scum to town too quickly, and her "outrage" did not even seem like an outrage, but more like frustration. The point is that she cannot be called town for that, as scum could easily fake it in such a case.

I know she's not town for that, but she's also not scum for it, which is what you were pushing for her suggestions at the beginning.

This is just a really bad conclusion. Doesn't make any sense with what Venmar said.

You need to reread then, because that's exactly what Venmar said. Read my post after that too.

Venmar said that just because a player is experienced does not mean you should sheep them.

[Wisdom]

The rest don't need addressing, since if I'm reading right you pseudo-voted me for.. being a jerk?
(@SC)

[Amrun]

Wisdom convinces those 4 people to sheep him and lynches B.
It's all about how able scum are.
If able scum were able to win every time, we wouldn't be playing. Why should we follow plans that make it easier for them to win?

Dude.
Say your pair and another pair have four town in them.
Say I am scum and I know that.
I convince people to sheep me and make those two pairs challenge each other.
Boom, instant mislynch, AND lynchfodder for future days.

Okay, I think you're missing the point I was trying to make, but this is something we can talk about.

There are, at most, three scum in this game. If we require a majority of town to elect one side of TWO different pairs and then put them against each other, sure, it's possible for a short while for scum to hide. It is, however, unlikely, and on day 1 we are likely to have 1 scum in the lynch pool.

Even if we fail in our lynch, which is fairly likely for the average day 1, our failing is not decreased by taking control of the lynch pool.

The plan is, in my opinion, better because the scum can't simply kamikaze someone. Even if they gang up, they must convince the town.

Whereas with no formal plan in place, we open ourselves up to a couple of bad options:

-Scum challenging a pair with a predictable outcome of a town lynch, only one of which is likely
-Town pair challenging a pet scum read no one agrees with
-Any pair challenging an agreed upon scum read that the town realizes (too late) must be town, and lynches suboptimally due to lack of choices.
-Scum can simply choose never to nominate, and only by getting lucky can town get scum into the lynch pool

With my plan, town must at least be convinced by scum to nominate two pairs of people. Scum can make no action without town approval.

If scum are able to successfully hoodwink the town to that extent, the plan certainly doesn't HELP them do this in any way I can see.

If you have an alternate plan, or improvements to this one, I'm sure everyone wants to hear it.

Wisdom is town.

Amrun is scum. Off the bat strategy speculation is definitely more likely to come from scum than town and I love how she is trying to prove shes town in 94 without just saying she is. The argument with wisdom makes zero sense from a town perspective, especially since she thinks hes town.

I only got the town read on him by HAVING the argument, which is fairly obvious. So this statement makes no sense.

We should all also agree to use the vote tags for real votes because it's a different color.

Why does this matter?

If people are reading and comprehending the thread, there is no need for overly formatted voting. That just lets people be lazy and skim crap anyways.

It's a basic thing that could aid us in our comprehension. Is it the most important thing? No. But games get long and at the end of day 5, looking back will be a lot easier if we do this.

we will lose this game fast.

appeal to fear. And probably not unless you think its scum just targeting town/town groups and if that is the case then just PL their scumbutts for doing stupid shit like that. Self-correcting problem.

This is valid; in hindsight, this was poor phrasing. I didn't mean it to be taken literally.

In a literal sense, what I meant was I think we can improve our chances of winning by being systematic. We could win if we don't; we could still lose if we do.

Wow, and that talk about experience is BULLSHIT and completely irrelevant. Experience does not make someone a better player and really why the hell are you arguing this? You could be scumhunting people but instead you are having a pointless argument with someone you think is town - or do you?

Oh and the quick shift of tones suggests that amrun was faking all that outrage in the first place - which she was because shes scum so.

First of all, I never said experience makes a better player. In fact, I said it DOESN'T. It's not an "appeal to authority" as you called it either. You're reprinting context in a scummy way because I know for sure you are capable of understanding the difference. I never said "I'M EXPERIENCED; LISTEN TO ME!"

I ONLY brought it up in the context of WHY I think Wisdom is town, because I think attacking a player in that way when the player is of unknown skill with an earlier join date etc. is LESS likely to come from scum. It was never a comment on my actual skill level, which is completely irrelevant to the discussion and not something I'd brag about anyway.

Like, for real, AP... We've met in real life. I've talked about feeling like a not-so-great player in your presence. I don't see how you as town can come to such a wild conclusion that is the opposite of what I was saying.

And implies she is town for speculating on all this common sense and AtF in the first place? No.

Town typically doesn't argue bullshit with someone they think is town.

I am not at all saying I'm town for bringing up a plan. It's something I could do as any alignment. It doesn't make me scum, either.

P-edit times a million: holy shit.

Wisdom, how can you read anything that has been posted and say that I am trying to brag about myself to get people to sheep me?

For fucking real?

Ugh.

Also about this "fake outrage" stuff, I was never outraged at all. Mildly annoyed at wisdom's tone =\= outrage. And it wasn't a useless argument because i got a townread out of it.

[pirate mollie]

re: this whole dumb experience argument

I know players who have been playing for years and are legitimately still terrible. they make no effort to improve their game and are quite lazy. on the inverse I have seen some newbs nail scum early on but some dummies will dismiss their reads cos they think experience equates with skill and raw talent and it does not.

I think amrun was just being arrogant I did not get the impression that she was trying to discredit you wis. you are reminding me of how you were in polygamy where you would on a peripheral point in order to stay sticky with your scumreads. you only had 2 in that game and something else I am noticing is that when you are scum you tend to pick on girls.

eta: xposts

[StrangerCoug]

#92: Katsuki was town in that game; therefore, using it to argue that Amrun is scum is invalid. At most, it reinforces that you think she's arrogant, which tells me little else.

Tell me I didn't read this
Did you seriously just say that my "omg she will tell us she has a scummy now" was an argument for her being scum?

From what I gather, your posts overall indicate that you think Amrun, as scum, will lead the game to a town loss using her experience to get people to believe that her way is the only correct way. Experienced players will know for a fact that that her way may not necessarily be correct. I believe it serves the purpose it's supposed to, and therefore I believe the plan will work. Other people may have better ideas. If your #92 is not supposed to even

PRETEND

to call Amrun's bluff, then it makes no sense in context.

#96: Context from the OP tells me there are no vengekills. Do you even think your posts through?

Are you even able to read what I'm typing?
I said that the plan about directing the challenges and therefore the lynches is similar to directing vengekills.
Didn't say there are vengekills in this game.

OK then.

#143: pirate mollie didn't even pass judgment on how experience and skill correlate. The player who signed up for the site first should not be treated as God—I've been here since 2008 and I STILL think I could use some work on a few things.

Yeah that wasn't even directed at pirate mollie.
Seriously?

Then whose question/request were you answering? Nobody else said anything where this response would make sense to them.

#148: No, she was not. And the post of hers contradicting you doesn't make me the new person to follow. I think I have some things that need work.

I'm one of the more experienced players in the game.

I am one of the most experienced.
And it is just a basic fact. Sorry if that bothers you.

Yes, she did.

No, she did not. She said she was

ONE OF

the most experienced. She did not claim to be the #1 most experienced, which your dropping "one of" implies. I shouldn't even be arguing semantics with you.

I disagree with you based on Wisdom's reactions to the suggestion

Also this is a very bad thing to do, and please stop doing it if you're town.
You cannot be certain of my alignment, so don't disagree with others based on what you think my alignment is.

And you cannot be certain of Amrun's unless she's scum with you, which is absurd since I don't think scum would want to stage a heated argument with one of their buddies off the bat.

#88: I'm baffled here. Wisdom says he'd do the exact same thing he's doing as SCUM!? What exactly is it, then, that doesn't make him scum?

The fact that I am town, maybe?

And that's supposed to tell me what?

And—serious question open to everybody—why would anybody of any alignment say something like this?

So wait, you don't call me scum for that, you say that.. I don't have an alignment?

It's nonsensical to me as scum, and it's nonsensical to me as town. It's common knowledge you

DO

have an alignment. If you're smart, you can boil it down to a simpler explanation than even this yourself.

The rest don't need addressing, since if I'm reading right you pseudo-voted me for.. being a jerk?
(@SC)

Among other things.

[Wisdom]

I didn't call you scum or hard defend Amrun. So try again?

I was talking about Venmar. You asked me why I am FoSing him, remember?

I don't. I only have a townread on Venmar, and it's because he said exactly what I was thinking, and I know it's coming from a town perspective. Considering you FoS'd Amrun, me, and Venmar, and I only townread Venmar, your point is invalid.

Fair, but keep in mind that scum can express "town perspective" opinions too.

AP made it seem like Amrun was scummy for suggesting we format votes a certain way. Venmar asked what that mattered.

No, AP asked why it mattered. I don't see why you and Venmar want to discredit that and make it seem like it was a part of his case.

I know she's not town for that, but she's also not scum for it, which is what you were pushing for her suggestions at the beginning.

She is scum for her suggestions, because scum seek to make these suggestions. It's not about a "this is townie, she did it, she wants to do something townie, she's scum". It's about doing something that scum would do. There's a difference, find it.

Venmar said that just because a player is experienced does not mean you should sheep them.

As I already said, Venmar said that AP's calling out her on the experience thing was bad.
This means he disagrees that the experience thing was bullshit.
This means he agrees with what Amrun said about experience, namely that because she's one of the most experienced, we should follow her plan.
So, yeah, that's what he said.
You should also read 148, where I explained this.

[Elyse]

@Amrun
There are four scum. It says so in the first few posts, unless I read it wrong.

[Wisdom]

There are, at most, three scum in this game

Yeah, I stopped reading here.
You're trying to make plans, yet you don't know the number of scum?
It is KNOWN how many scum there are.

I guess this makes you town though, even though I wouldn't put it past you to fake that towntell.

[Elyse]

I don't. I only have a townread on Venmar, and it's because he said exactly what I was thinking, and I know it's coming from a town perspective. Considering you FoS'd Amrun, me, and Venmar, and I only townread Venmar, your point is invalid.

Fair, but keep in mind that scum can express "town perspective" opinions too.

So how am I supposed to get a townread? Basically you are saying that scum tries to look town so anything townie can be scummy.

Everything else isn't really worth arguing over so I'm just going to drop it.

I think my number one scumread is AP right now. His case on Amrun was bad and he's trying to be overly persuasive about it.

Wisdom is tough to read. He posts so much and argues with everyone. I don't see scum acting like that straight out of the gate, but there are also some serious flaws in his logic.

[Amrun]

Oh yeah I forgot that. Lol. I knew that at one point.

It doesn't matter, though. Everything is still the same. It actually increases the likelihood of my plan being effective.

If you don't even read, though, then why you expect to be treated seriously is beyond me.

[Wisdom]

Then whose question/request were you answering? Nobody else said anything where this response would make sense to them.

Venmar. I even used the exact words he used. It was the post above mollie's.