Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[pirate mollie]

Pirate mollie, you have used the same thing to call wisdom scum that I used to call him town. (One of the things, anyway.) You are saying he is less aggressive than usual which is scummy. I was saying the opposite (without the metric of what usual is for him) and you disagreed with the reasoning. Explain that, please.

Grim, I can be, have been, and will be aggressive when and if it suits my mood and/or the game. Are you always so sensitive to aggression? Do you have evidence of this?

you misunderstand me. I am not saying that I find wis sus cos of a lack of aggression I am saying that he went meek when he was being called a dick. he became more subdued after that exchange IMO.

[pirate mollie]

Grim, I can be, have been, and will be aggressive when and if it suits my mood and/or the game.

Lol, what is up with you people? No need to take yourself so seriously. I get it, you like to roll your muscles.
I didn't mean to tell any of you how to behave, I just gave my view of how I don't really like these "I don't care what you think about me" posts. They are not very engaging.
Maybe it will grow on me, who knows.

Are you always so sensitive to aggression?

Yes, I'm a delicate little flower.

Do you have evidence of this?

Not really. But maybe Elyse can weigh in on this, as she told me I need thicker skin. I recently had a (supposedly over-)sensitive reaction when she called my contributions fluff in another game. But that's is an ongoing game, so you won't be able to get any conclusion alignment-wise based on that, if that's what you're after.

The only game I've been in that's finished was a micro-game together with Wisdom. I don't recall any major bursts of aggression there, the issue was never brought up in any case.

Come to think of it: why is this relevant?

do not talk about ongoing games this is a board wide rule violation, plz don't ever do it again.

[Grimgroove]

No harm done I think, but I'll keep it in mind. In this case it's probably better Elyse does NOT weigh in on it, in order to not make matters worse.

Will get into your wall now. I started on it earlier, but my computer shut down due to overheating in the middle of it. You can imagine my frustration.

[Grimgroove]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-ove

r. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

^ this is ridiculously overdefensive

Before the wall, maybe this appetizer first: it is not.

Basically Majify is not trying to convince me either of you are town, he's simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work, he must think I'm a push-over. Hence the reaction you bolded.

I did, however, mark a hint of comedy in his edict. I like the occasional laugh just as much as any hyena. This is why I added a similarly silly request, of ceasing certain activities. There was a similar hint of comedy in that request, which mirrored Majify's, and which shows I was not being overly defensive.

[Grimgroove]

It's the posts I brought up during my round of incessant questions. Basically it's mainly related to your earlier period in the game.

you mean those posts where your questions were already answered by the time you got to the end of the thread? you asked questions but you never stated why you found those posts scummy.

I realize I didn't. This was merely an introduction to the answers you were looking for. I'm glad to see you found them right after making this redundant remark.

Note that there will again be many questions in this thread. Even though one of their aims is that you answer them, a secondary function is that they clarify my thought process and reflect my thoughts about you.

First it started with your fluff for the first six pages or so. I thought it was scummy because it showed no commitment when it comes to moving this game forward.

I want you to post which posts you find scummy and explain why. you don't just get to sit back and call all of my posts until p6 scummy unless you can think of a scum motivation for doing so. fluff posts are alignment neutral unless they persist throughout the game.

I found the posts scummy because they were fluff.
I find fluff scummy because of the reason in the snippet you just quoted of me: lack of commitment to get the game forward.
Doing what you ask me to do would basically boil down to me showing why your first posts were all fluff. An unnecessary exercise, considering how you agree with that.

here is a game where every single one of posts were "fluffy" until d2:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25693

in fact, I think I made only 1 post with content and that was to point out that we had a missing kill and that I blocked nacho. flawless town victory. I trolled the fuck out nacho while I was looking for his partner in fact, I think the post that I outed was the only non fluff post in the game other than my guille vote.

Sorry, I don't care much about meta-arguments. Definitely with a person with your gaming history: I'm sure you have a mafiagame where the scenario benefits your defense for many different occasions, obviously including this one.

Oh, and to beat you to it: the reason I pointed to other games myself when Amrun was asking me for evidence that I don't react well to aggression is precisely because she asked me. I'm assuming she didn't want a psychiatric report. If people ask me to provide them with my meta I'll do so, but I'll never use it as an argument myself.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts. do you know who are sticky with their reads in lieu of gathering and assimilating new information? scum that is who.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really have a scumread on you. You're null. I never claimed otherwise.
I probably gave you this impression because I just listed all your scummy posts and told you why I thought they were scummy. Why I did that? Oh, because you asked me to.
There have been positive vibes coming from your slot as well. Sometimes I posted something, and when I continued rereading I saw you sometimes make the same remark or thought process as I would. MAybe you considered this mere repetition from my part, but from my PoV this made me feel better about you in the later stage of the game. Apart from the bad ass image you are trying to portray, that is.

My computer is heating up again and I don't want to lose what I already typed (again), so I'll go ahead and post this and get to the rest of the wall in the following post.

[Grimgroove]

I'll get into the rest of the wall tomorrow. Sorry but I'm just too tired.

[Amrun]

Come to think of it: why is this relevant?

If you're always very sensitive, it's not relevant at all. If, however, you are displaying new behavior, or behavior you have not displayed as town, it could be indicative of a scum mindset (pre-emptively defensive and worried about criticism they expect to be coming). In your case, I think it's more of the former, but please never speak of ongoing games again.

[pirate mollie]

Before the wall, maybe this appetizer first: it is not.

yes. it is. mebbe you don't understand what overly defensive is

Basically Majify is not trying to convince me either of you are town, he's simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work,

he must think I'm a push-over

. Hence the reaction you bolded.

he never said this nor did he imply that you were a "pushover". majiffy says that to everyone hence the avvie title "go with the flow". click on his sig (flowchart), he really does believe that shit. he could think you are the hercules of mafia and he would still say that.

I did, however, mark a hint of comedy in his edict. I like the occasional laugh just as much as any hyena. This is why I added a similarly silly request, of ceasing certain activities. There was a similar hint of comedy in that request, which mirrored Majify's, and which shows I was not being overly defensive.

you are seriously playing this little game inside your head that doesn't seem to have a lot to do with reality. majiffy was being serious. like he really does believe you should just accept what he says at face value. he isn't really joking.

[pirate mollie]

I realize I didn't. This was merely an introduction to the answers you were looking for. I'm glad to see you found them right after making this redundant remark.

wat

I fucking can't follow what the hell you are saying at all. like I am not even sure what kind of convoluted point you are trying to make here.

I found the posts scummy because they were fluff.
I find fluff scummy because of the reason in the snippet you just quoted of me: lack of commitment to get the game forward.
Doing what you ask me to do would basically boil down to me showing why your first posts were all fluff. An unnecessary exercise, considering how you agree with that.

dude. read what I am trying to tell you. not all fluff posts come from scum. <----------- are you following me here? what it comes down to is motivation of posts and body of work.

Sorry, I don't care much about meta-arguments. Definitely with a person with your gaming history: I'm sure you have a mafiagame where the scenario benefits your defense for many different occasions, obviously including this one.

read above

Oh, and to beat you to it: the reason I pointed to other games myself when Amrun was asking me for evidence that I don't react well to aggression is precisely because she asked me. I'm assuming she didn't want a psychiatric report. If people ask me to provide them with my meta I'll do so, but I'll never use it as an argument myself.

jesus christ you are not overly defensive at all.

you aren't at all addressing an argument that I haven't even made and is no where near the original point that I was making.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really have a scumread on you. You're null. I never claimed otherwise.
I probably gave you this impression because I just listed all your scummy posts and told you why I thought they were scummy. Why I did that? Oh, because you asked me to.

wat. the. fuck.

you are the one who originally posited that I was the only player whom your were getting scummy vibes from. I asked you to put up or stfu. all that you have given me is that you cannot seem to differentiate between playstyle and actual scumtells. <---alignment neutral IMO cos I see scum and town both make really dumb arguments with really bad reasoning.

There have been positive vibes coming from your slot as well. Sometimes I posted something, and when I continued rereading I saw you sometimes make the same remark or thought process as I would. MAybe you considered this mere repetition from my part, but from my PoV this made me feel better about you in the later stage of the game. Apart from the bad ass image you are trying to portray, that is.

lol, I am not the one running around and going "ack! ack! ack! I am not a pushoveeeeer! " so I hardly think that I am the one who is trying to be a badass here.

do you have any idea how condescending your posts come across? they are pretty insulting and slathered in sarcasm which I am reading as you being overly defensive and I am wondering why. I can't tell if you are some insecure newbtown and who is trying to prove how incredibly secure he is or if you are newbscum who is hedging on reads and trying to argue nonexistant points in order to look busy and and engaged. I find it hard to believe that by now you do not have 1 single read.

I want a list of your reads.

[AngryPidgeon]

SF pride was fun. I'll try to post tonight but I gotta drive my visitor to the aiport for at 5:00 am tomorrow morning so bear with me

[Majiffy]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-ove

r. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

^ this is ridiculously overdefensive

Actually I read it as more passive-aggressive snark.

[Majiffy]'s simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work, he must think I'm a push-over.

False. I truly believe it will work if you have any semblance of competence at this game. Consider it a reaction test of how good you are.

Hit'n da club.

[Grimgroove]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-ove

r. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

^ this is ridiculously overdefensive

Actually I read it as more passive-aggressive snark.

I guess it was, and maybe I should apologize. I was in a state of defiance after reading remarks of me being eaten alive and getting crushed if I'd get anywhere near you. I tend to use sarcasm a lot, which is meant to be taken lightly as I just think it's a funny instrument. I'm going to refrain from making any further comments on this topic (also with reference to pirate_mollie's wall from which I will omit certain segments for precisely this reason). This isn't about who is boss, this is about who's scum.

[Majiffy]'s simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work, he must think I'm a push-over.

False. I truly believe it will work if you have any semblance of competence at this game. Consider it a reaction test of how good you are.

Then I guess I'm a bad player, because I really don't see why you simply saying "Read us as town" should immediately result in actually reading you as town. I don't understand why you're making me spell out something this obvious.
Why are you reaction testing for how good players are? Won't that become clear over the course of the game? Why do you want to know if I'm a good player or not?

[Grimgroove]

Before the wall, maybe this appetizer first: it is not.

yes. it is. mebbe you don't understand what overly defensive is

No comment.

Basically Majify is not trying to convince me either of you are town, he's simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work,

he must think I'm a push-over

. Hence the reaction you bolded.

he never said this nor did he imply that you were a "pushover". majiffy says that to everyone hence the avvie title "go with the flow". click on his sig (flowchart), he really does believe that shit. he could think you are the hercules of mafia and he would still say that.

Don't know his meta. The only people who would read him or you as town simply because he says so are pushovers in my book, so him seriously thinking and believing I would respond positively to his request does imply that. You say it doesn't and maybe you're right, but my interpretation was not as farfetched or overdefensive (remind me to look up this difficult word) as you're making it out to be.

I did, however, mark a hint of comedy in his edict. I like the occasional laugh just as much as any hyena. This is why I added a similarly silly request, of ceasing certain activities. There was a similar hint of comedy in that request, which mirrored Majify's, and which shows I was not being overly defensive.

you are seriously playing this little game inside your head that doesn't seem to have a lot to do with reality. majiffy was being serious. like he really does believe you should just accept what he says at face value. he isn't really joking.

My mistake.

[Grimgroove]

Part Two of 379.

Your explanation of this fluff I also found scummy. You said you were waiting to interact with Majify in order to be able to proceed. You say you explained why (the quote above is what I found), but I don't find this explanation satisfactory, and here is why.

except me saying I want to interact with majiffy is not "fluff". there is motivation behind it as in I want to get a read on him asap.

"Asap" is a notion that's out of your hands. Not getting into the game while you're waiting for yourt chat with him does not speed up getting a read on Majify.
It's like not wanting to read a book while you wait for the bus, because you want to leave as soon as possible. That motivation makes no sense.

First of all, you state that you need to chat with Majify in order to avoid tunneling him. This does not make sense for several reasons, and the lack of sense makes it scummy:
- Why would you tunnel him before interacting with him? You seem to equate "getting into the game before chatting with Majify" with "trolletracking Majify". This doesn't make sense. Why does MAjify have to be your starting point?

erm, your interpretation does not make sense. it is implicit that I want to get an early read so I don't spend the whole game paranoid over him like I sometimes do. he gave me that town signal right off the fucking bat and it was beautiful cos I am fairly certain he is town. and we work well together when we are both town even though we have a tendency to fight over our reads.

Could you explain in more detail how this quick townread came to be? Maybe it could convince all of us?
My interpretation does make sense. Step-by-step:

- You post fluff until you had a talk with Majify.
- You want to talk to Majify because you don't want to tunnel him.
=> You post fluff because you don't want to tunnel Majify.
You consider tunneling Majify the only alternative to posting fluff before he gets to posting.

- Obviously, getting the read of Majify was just a matter of procedure. 5 minutes was all it took. Then why make such a big deal of it before? If it was just such a short procedure, I don't see why you couldn't get started with other things in the meanwhile until you had it done.

I am not the one who is making a big deal over it you and wis were. I also wanted him to explain the set-up to me cos I frankly didn't understand it. the obtainment of the read took a lot less time than I thought it would.

You brought it up as the reason for your fluff and why it wasn't scummy, so you're the one who made this a central element in our discussions.

- Why would tunneling him be bad? Considering you read him like an open book, I guess this means that if you do tunnel him, that means he must be scum. Why do you fear trolleytracking MAjify if you later claim to read him easily? The fear seems unfounded given your special connection.

did you miss the part where I said, "again"? I am guessing you did. I am just going let you work that one out on your own, by your sarcasm I am guessing you can!

Well, you've been sending mixed messages on how easily you read him. Now you claim it was rather exceptional that you read him this easily and quickly, yet in an earlier post you said this:

@ everyone

what do you think of your partner

I was in gchat with majiffy for five minutes before I town read him.

although it was probably a little ridiculous to partner majiffy and I together

.

I think it would be veryhelpful if you clarified how you got the mutual townread off eachother.

What I also found scummy (now a bit less because MAjify is untroubled by it) was how you seemed to give up your ownership on your own posts and thought processes in post 155 ("cos if I townread him I will probably orient my game around him unless goes after my townreads.") It sounds like we should adress any further questions to Majify instead of to you.

how the fuck did you get

that

interpretation out of what I said? why would you ask majiffy questions that you wnt me to answer? that doesn't even make sense.

You said you'll orient your game around him. What do you mean by that? I took it as him being your primary source of information and reads. So if the time would come that you are being questioned, you'd orient your defense around Majify as well. In short I thought you were saying you'd be sheeping him as soon as you read him town. Please tell me how I should read it then.

And I'm not sure if it's scummy, but I don't like the attitude you are having here. Yes, I know you won't care, but that doesn't matter. It seems like all you have done so far is secure a townread from Majifyu to cruise through this topic unquestioned and act like big bad-asses, but I'll tell you right now I'm not in the least bit impressed. It could be scummy in the sence that you're maybe trying to paralyze my efforts and you take me for some easily impressionable newbie, but I will not be deterred from my cause of finding scum. If I meet you on the way I'll gladly take Majify with it.

lol. if I thought you were some easily impressionable newb don't you think that I would be coddling you like you want me to? I don't think you are stupid, just new, so I am not going to treat you like you are stupid. is that okay?

Ok.

Your macho-prattling in [pos]359[/post] was the most laughable thing I've read since my arrival at Mafiascum. Congratulations.

you know what I find laughable? that you are scumreading me cos you think I didn't show commitment by p6 and we are now on p13 and

you have yet to cough up a single read

. I don't think I am the one with commitment issues here. <----- that is laughable.

I thought you thought I had a scumread on you?

By now, the scummyvibes you were giving me in the start, are back. So I've got a scumread on you. Through association I've got a scumread on Majify as well. The main reason right now is the unexplained read on one another. You could be scumpartners trying to power your way through as a tandem. In the worst case, a mislynch on one of you would leave us with a conftown for the rest of the game, which seems like a pretty good trade-off.
I don't really have much strong reads yet, I got caught up in this discussion with you, and my read-through didn't provide me with any striking reads except for that parts that I mentioned.
Overall you, Majify and Angry Pidgeon lean scum.
Enomis and StrangerCoug are null, leaning scum.
Elyse is null leaning town. So is Venmar.
Wisdom looks town to me, also because of the way he insisted on holding on to that untenable argument of Venmar scumslipping. I think scum would have realized earlier this argument does not make sense. In this regard I want to ask you if you were serious when saying that Wisdom makes stupid arguments as scum.
NobodySpecial and SafetyDance are null due to lack of activity.
Amrun leans town for me as well. I was worried for a bit since I had the impression she was trying to get a big bag o' towncred, but she convinced me this isn't the case.

Where have I been defensive, awfully so?

you have been defensive in this very post, lol

How so?
Also, I didn't realize you were a clairvoyant. Where was I overdefensive before you said I was being overdefensive?

I did consider Amrun's response as agressive, but that doesn't mean I partuvlarly care about it. It's not a misrep but an honest interpretation. Note I also did not connect any indication of alignment to it. Misreps are made with the aim of painting someone off as scummy. i didn't do such a thing.

well I don't know what your intentions since you have not given a read on amrun I am just giving you my honest interpretation.

Glad we got that sorted out then.

[Grimgroove]

I realize I didn't. This was merely an introduction to the answers you were looking for. I'm glad to see you found them right after making this redundant remark.

wat

I fucking can't follow what the hell you are saying at all. like I am not even sure what kind of convoluted point you are trying to make here.

You said I hadn't answered to your questions while responding to a quote where I did so a few paragraphs later.

I found the posts scummy because they were fluff.
I find fluff scummy because of the reason in the snippet you just quoted of me: lack of commitment to get the game forward.
Doing what you ask me to do would basically boil down to me showing why your first posts were all fluff. An unnecessary exercise, considering how you agree with that.

dude. read what I am trying to tell you. not all fluff posts come from scum. <----------- are you following me here? what it comes down to is motivation of posts and body of work.

I follow you, but I don't agree with you that in this case your fluff was obviously not scummy. As I explained before, the link between your fluff and Majify's absence doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry, I don't care much about meta-arguments. Definitely with a person with your gaming history: I'm sure you have a mafiagame where the scenario benefits your defense for many different occasions, obviously including this one.

read above

Oh, and to beat you to it: the reason I pointed to other games myself when Amrun was asking me for evidence that I don't react well to aggression is precisely because she asked me. I'm assuming she didn't want a psychiatric report. If people ask me to provide them with my meta I'll do so, but I'll never use it as an argument myself.

jesus christ you are not overly defensive at all.

you aren't at all addressing an argument that I haven't even made and is no where near the original point that I was making.

I digressed a bit, but like you said, conversation is a two-way street, and when it comes to my replies I get to decide which points I want to make. I did not ignore your points, I just added to them. Just making my point on meta clear.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really have a scumread on you. You're null. I never claimed otherwise.
I probably gave you this impression because I just listed all your scummy posts and told you why I thought they were scummy. Why I did that? Oh, because you asked me to.

wat. the. fuck.

you are the one who originally posited that I was the only player whom your were getting scummy vibes from.

No.

I asked you to put up or stfu.

Some people would call that overdefensiveness.

all that you have given me is that you cannot seem to differentiate between playstyle and actual scumtells. <---alignment neutral IMO cos I see scum and town both make really dumb arguments with really bad reasoning.

I live and I learn.

There have been positive vibes coming from your slot as well. Sometimes I posted something, and when I continued rereading I saw you sometimes make the same remark or thought process as I would. MAybe you considered this mere repetition from my part, but from my PoV this made me feel better about you in the later stage of the game. Apart from the bad ass image you are trying to portray, that is.

lol, I am not the one running around and going "ack! ack! ack! I am not a pushoveeeeer! " so I hardly think that I am the one who is trying to be a badass here.

do you have any idea how condescending your posts come across? they are pretty insulting and slathered in sarcasm which I am reading as you being overly defensive and I am wondering why. I can't tell if you are some insecure newbtown and who is trying to prove how incredibly secure he is or if you are newbscum who is hedging on reads and trying to argue nonexistant points in order to look busy and and engaged. I find it hard to believe that by now you do not have 1 single read.

See my reply to Majify. Sorry if I seemed condescending, but read your own post 359 and tell me that it wasn't. I guess your first interpretation was correct.

I want a list of your reads.

You got 'em now.

[Majiffy]

Grim you are slowly making your way to the danger zone. I can only hope for your sake that Mollie is townreading you. We'll be in conversation about you.

[Grimgroove]

Keep me posted.
Anyone else has got something to say about all of this?

[enomis]

I don't know what i think about this. Will discuss with amrun.

[Wisdom]

Anyone else has got something to say about all of this?

Boring quote-war that probably is TvT and should stop.

[enomis]

Anyone else has got something to say about all of this?

Boring quote-war that probably is TvT and should stop.

Oh this is interesting. Why?

[Wisdom]

Because it give us nothing, they're just bickering about whether Majiffy wants people to sheep him and whether Grim is oversensitive or not.

[Grimgroove]

You missed some elements.
What do you think of the strong townread they have on each other? Aren't you wondering where it's coming from?

[enomis]

Because it give us nothing, they're just bickering about whether Majiffy wants people to sheep him and whether Grim is oversensitive or not.

And you want to say town usually bicker over small things. Thats why they are Town v Town?

Why do you think Grim being over defensive is a null point?

[Wisdom]

No it's town vs town because I townread both of them.

@Grim
No, unfortunately they both buddy each other in practically every game they're both in. This game was my first experience of that, and it was very annoying (I was certain one of them at least has to be scum), but they were both town.

They're probably both town in this game too.

[enomis]

Why is Grim town?