Newbie 1388 Nexlexia Game Over

[JKMatthews]

If you're an RB, there are two possible setups. I was also saying that I think you might be scum trying to figure out WHO the PRs are, not WHICH PRs are in the game...
Please explain how knowing how the jailer works would 'help your scumhunt'...

[DoctorPepper]

If you're an RB, there are two possible setups. I was also saying that I think you might be scum trying to figure out WHO the PRs are, not WHICH PRs are in the game...
Please explain how knowing how the jailer works would 'help your scumhunt'...

This.

Also Titus thanks for misrepping me. You really want me lynched that bad huh? Where wasnt I helping, I gave you a link to the freaking wiki you were too lazy to look for yourself

[DoctorPepper]

Bob, youre online. How does me suspecting that the lack of a mafia kill indicates experience make me scummy?

[Titus]

If you're an RB, there are two possible setups. I was also saying that I think you might be scum trying to figure out WHO the PRs are, not WHICH PRs are in the game...
Please explain how knowing how the jailer works would 'help your scumhunt'...

The jailor's function would help me confirm if their was a roleblocker or not in the game. Of course, that also had the assumption (wrong) that townies got roleblocked messages. I also assumed that the jailed target would be aware and have a night chat with their jailor. Now that I know how the jailor actually works, it is a lot less relevant. If Dr. Pepper and NS would have clarified this faster but the tone is pretty consistent just to stop going down that road. See post 659.

If the jailor had worked the way I believed (townies did get roleblocked messages), then pushing for a claim and laying out these scenarios would be very pro-town. We would be able to limit the amount of claims and force scum into the position where scum would almost always claim second. This jailor is so different from what I had known and that changed the way to properly play this.

Look when you and NS tell me to stop and not answer my questions claiming they are "mental calithenscs", how am I supposed to feel? I'm not an expert on this site. They seem to hold me to whatever standard fits your argument that I'm scummy. It's patently unfair. I'm referring to Dr. Pepper's post 659 and whichever post NS says that my questions are mental calithensics (spelling may be off).

[Bicephalous Bob]

DP: Because it's stupid. A flaw in logic, if you will. Also, you never said you suspected it to be an indication. You said it's an indication. Period.

[DoctorPepper]

So being "stupid" by your definition is scummy? Because by that logic town wouldnt be so stupid, we'd catch scum all the time and there would be no point in playing mafia.
The amount of Opportunistic scum in this game is too damn high

[DoctorPepper]

Spoiler:

Can you link me to the jailor entry in the wiki?

Dr. Pepper, you have been stopping any discussion that is NOT you versus me. I'm fully capable of talking with you forever. Our cases have been presented. The town is freaking confused at best. We can talk about others. Yet, you seem unwilling to do so.

He literally said "Lets do this" indicating he was fine with NS hammering.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper
This does not prove why I have actively been stopping YOU from talking about it. If I fine nothing wrong with it, the. i have every right not to say anything. If you think its wrong, then fucking comment on it instead of saying "Ive been stopping you" when I have not done that shit.

The entry does not answer my questions. I was hoping you would link me to something that would answer them.

1) Does the jailkeeper select his target during the day or at night?

2) Does the roleblocker occur before the jailkeeper in the Order of Operations? The first page suggests that the roleblocker takes preference. If there are no roleblock claims, we can infer there is no roleblocker and have just as much information as the mafia. However, if the jailkeeper blocks the mafia. E.g. I'm not understanding preference on the host's first page.

Its a night action

If roleblocker targets JK and JK targets the roleblocker, the roleblocker wins (assuming the roleblocker also made the kill, the kill goes through) and the roleblocker will not claim (assuming there is one) because the roleblocker is scum in this set up

I am sorry if my scumhunting has irritated you. If it's a specific behavior, please tell me what it is so I can stop. I am trying to be reasonable here.


I had several questions in my day end that were causing me to doubt my scumreads.


How is explaining a "normal" role mental calisthenics?

Jailkeeper/roleblocker question I have

1) If the jailkeeper jails the roleblocker, and the roleblocker blocks someone else does it take effect? In other words is the Order of Operations... 1) Roleblocker blocks jailkeeper 2) Jailkeeper acts 3) Roleblocker blocks anyone else OR is it 1) Roleblocker blocks anyone 2) Jailkeeper acts? In the first scenairo, we cannot assume due to a lack of a roleblock claim that there is no roleblocker. The second scenario, we still likely would see a roleblocked claim.


I think an

unvote

is the right place to be due to seeing too much suspicious acts right now.

I am sorry if my scumhunting has irritated you. If it's a specific behavior, please tell me what it is so I can stop. I am trying to be reasonable here.


I had several questions in my day end that were causing me to doubt my scumreads.


How is explaining a "normal" role mental calisthenics?

Jailkeeper/roleblocker question I have

1) If the jailkeeper jails the roleblocker, and the roleblocker blocks someone else does it take effect? In other words is the Order of Operations... 1) Roleblocker blocks jailkeeper 2) Jailkeeper acts 3) Roleblocker blocks anyone else OR is it 1) Roleblocker blocks anyone 2) Jailkeeper acts? In the first scenairo, we cannot assume due to a lack of a roleblock claim that there is no roleblocker. The second scenario, we still likely would see a roleblocked claim.


I think an

unvote

is the right place to be due to seeing too much suspicious acts right now.

I apologize again for my irritation; it's exacerbated by personal issues, but you're being very stubborn about "the way we do things here" and that's one of my pet peeves.

Answer:


(from the setup information, page one,

this very thread)

:
*Roleblocker will take precedence over jailkeeper when resolving night actions should that apply.

Therefore, the Roleblocker blocks the jailkeeper, and the jailkeeper is blocked, which means they do not have an action.

Clear enough?

By this logic, we have supposedly stopped helping Titus. I cant speak for NS, but I have tried to answer them.
And NO, pushing for a claim is not helpful, it just gives scum a free PR to kill. Why are you role fishing?

[DoctorPepper]

The jailor's function would help me confirm if their was a roleblocker or not in the game. Of course, that also had the assumption (wrong) that townies got roleblocked messages. I also assumed that the jailed target would be aware and have a night chat with their jailor. Now that I know how the jailor actually works, it is a lot less relevant. If Dr. Pepper and NS would have clarified this faster but the tone is pretty consistent just to stop going down that road. See post 659.

If the jailor had worked the way I believed (townies did get roleblocked messages), then pushing for a claim and laying out these scenarios would be very pro-town. We would be able to limit the amount of claims and force scum into the position where scum would almost always claim second. This jailor is so different from what I had known and that changed the way to properly play this.

Look when you and NS tell me to stop and not answer my questions claiming they are "mental calithenscs", how am I supposed to feel? I'm not an expert on this site. They seem to hold me to whatever standard fits your argument that I'm scummy. It's patently unfair. I'm referring to Dr. Pepper's post 659 and whichever post NS says that my questions are mental calithensics (spelling may be off).

How would knowing a jailkeepr's function help yuo find out if we have a roleblocker??
Its unfair for you to say that Im scum for not helping you when
1) I've been answering your questions
2) your questions could be answered by wiki
3) you're rolefishing

I think JKM's theory makes sense.

[JKMatthews]

I think the concern is that you say things like "the jailer doesn't specify whether or not it opens up nightchat for the target", which to me is like saying "the cop PM doesn't say whether or not the cop can act as a doctor". In terms of whether or not the target receives a message to say they were targetted I can understand some suspicion, but when it's extra stuff relating to the power that's not even remotely mentioned in the sample PM, I don't know why you'd think there's any ambiguity. As a self-proclaimed "academic", I'd have thought you'd know the best way to approach a new area of study is to assume you know nothing and work from there. The fact that people were saying "stop wasting time, it's in the role PM" (obviously paraphrased) should have answered your question well enough.

If people think you're being scummy and say you're being scummy, it's not unfair, it's the game. Remove emotion from the game, nobody's attacking you personally. We're saying we find you scummy from what you've said.
There's almost 3 pages of you repeatedly asking the same questions. Admittedly the answers you were receiving are fairly vague, but instead of looking for the meaning in the vague answers ("this is a pretty basic question so here is a basic answer"), you insisted that your questions were being ignored, which wasn't even remotely the case. Therefore, you look scummy.

P-edit: I see you guys have posted but my point still stands I think...

[Titus]

The jailor I am used to does remove the target from their night chat. You are right that I should have done my homework. However, the assumptions were not illogical. Ex: Assuming solving the puzzle helps and the game would be structured towards that end.

As for the nightchat, that's the jailor I knew. Why reverify what I already knew about the jailor and the roleblocker until I had some suspicion it wasn't true? That's a waste of time. The same goes for common words and strategies. No one comes on and just asks for a definition of every strategy they already know. It's a waste of time. It just turns out that roleblock is structured in a manner thatpuzzle solving doesn't help the town. That was so ridculous to me that I commented on it.

[Titus]

I was not rolefishing. I believed that ANYONE could claim roleblocked. If I knew only PRs would claim roleblocked, I never would have gone down that road!

[Titus]

@JKM, if you have what you feel is a legitimate question and someone says... go answer it yourself rather than explaining it, wouldn't you feel ignored/slighted? If it was so simple, why not just grab the relevant section. That's because who is notified of a roleblock attempt is not in the rolecard. Also, the jailor and nightchats isn't mentioned at all.

[JKMatthews]

Since you seem to like analogies a whole bunch, here's one for you:
You've spent your whole life flying with Airline A. Airline A's tickets are advertised as including in-flight entertainment, meals and drinks. You then for the first time fly with Airline B whose tickets are advertised as including in-flight entertainment. During your flight, you order a drink, the drink comes and the attendant says "that'll be $5 please". Is there any legitimacy to you saying "I refuse to pay. Airline A always gave me free drinks, and since you didn't specify either way I assumed drinks would be free"? I think not.
This analogy ties into you saying you felt ignored. You asked what the definition of the jailer is, and you were given the answer "the jailer is as defined in the first post of this thread and in the wiki". Given that there's absolutely no mention of the jailer being able to talk to their target, you assuming they can is just silly. And you're getting a bit self-righteous: being told "this is the exact place to find the definition" is

very

different to being told "go answer it yourself".

I also think your assumption that the game is structured as a puzzle-solving mission for town with handy hints along the way is also illogical. The game is designed to try to give town and scum equal chance of winning. The ratio of scum/town is designed approximately to that end, and the PRs on both sides are simply added to give the game intrigue/strategy. Saying "the game is about town puzzle sovling" implies scum are incidental, but they're playing the game just as much, but with a different end-goal.

Anyway, getting bogged down on this doesn't help find scum, so the fact that you're steering conversation back here is exasperating.

[Titus]

I'm not steering. I'm defending myself. To say I'm steering is not exactly honest.

To follow with your analogy, I'm surprised Airline B is charging me for drinks and say so. I'm surprised townies don't get roleblocked messages and I say so. In fact, I'm pissed just like the passenger on the airline.

No it's not. The wiki still didn't answer my questions. The wiki doesn't say whether or not townies get the notification of roleblocked at all. The wiki doesn't say whether or not jailor impacts the night chats at all. I'm just like the passenger on the airline. The stewardess just says look at the contract for your flight and the contract is suspiciously silent.

[JKMatthews]

But... my point was being surprised that Airline B is charging you for drinks is exceedingly closed-minded. If you base what one Airline B (mafiascum) should do based off of Airline A (sc2) rather than what you've been told by Airline B then you've only got yourself to blame for your disconnect with the way things are done.

I've already said I understand your uncertainty towards whether or not the target is notified of being targeted, I'll give you that nightchat could be considered an 'action' mafia take and so you would be unsure and that, and I still think spending as long dwelling on it as you did is anti-town.

[Titus]

Oh that's your point. Now that I understand your point, I'll respectfully disagree and move on. I'm just the type that will stop at nothing to understand everything about how the game works. You're wrong but you clearly put forth your logic. If you were the one explaining this to me, I get the feeling this would have been resolved sooner.

I really would like to hear from Channel and Bacde. They seem to have gone missing. I'm holding out to see if they or anyone else can highlight something else I might have missed that makes Dr. Pepper appear like town. I know Bacde has said he is, I just would like to see the what the others see because apparently I miss that a lot.

[JKMatthews]

Would you mind explaining your case concisely to a third party such as myself? I know there's lots of fragments of why you think DrP is scummy, but they've only come out in an argument between you and DrP, which has made you seem more scummy and thus your points less convincing. If you could set them out for me that would be mighty helpful.

[JKMatthews]

Ugh, apologies for the ambiguity. The argument between you and DrP is what made me feel like you were more scummy, not the fact that your points only came out in said argument...

[DoctorPepper]

The fact that the wiki mentions none of this "block jailer from talking with an option to kill" should have been enough. If something like that is incredibly important, it would have been mentioned.

Oh yeah I forgot we were at 5 to lynch. BTW guys after Titus, we should go for Bob.

[Titus]

Would you mind explaining your case concisely to a third party such as myself? I know there's lots of fragments of why you think DrP is scummy, but they've only come out in an argument between you and DrP, which has made you seem more scummy and thus your points less convincing. If you could set them out for me that would be mighty helpful.

Absolutely. I'll start from the actions on Day 1 and wind up today. Dr. Pepper, you should put forth your case on me as well. I won't respond directly unless you say something verifiable untrue if you will promise to do the same. The reason I say this last part is to allow everyone to understand.

My post may not go in perfect chronological order because I'm trying to be concise which requires organization of a lot.

[Bicephalous Bob]

So being "stupid" by your definition is scummy? Because by that logic town wouldnt be so stupid, we'd catch scum all the time and there would be no point in playing mafia.
The amount of Opportunistic scum in this game is too damn high

Using loopholes in logic to accuse people is scummy. Memes are terrible.

[DoctorPepper]

By that logic, you admit there are flaws in the logic?

And by that definition you think only townies commit logical fallacies?

And by that logic you think town's logic should be perfect?

And by that logic you think scum is the only faction to exploit loopholes?

Worst. Chainsaw. Ever.

[Titus]

JKM/Everyone else who cares, Here's my short summary of Dr. Pepper. I haven't included every example because you asked for concise argumentation.


In post 358 Dr. Pepper says a lot that alerted me to the fact he could have been on a scum team with NS. The post, while not directly talking about NS, seems to be a defense of NS.

I mentioned in the alternative if yessiree was innocent, that NS and Dr. Pepper were my top scum reads on my initial post, which was eaten but later reposted as a picture. Dr. Pepper, before the attack was implying that Yessiree and Bob were scum due to Bob's alleged scum slip. See Post 413. Bob's alleged slip was asking a question regarding win conditions. To me, clarifying the rules is not a scum slip. Basically, anyone who said Bob's scum slip might not be a scum slip became insta scum. Agree with me or your scum type mentality. Well, either that or stupid because everything according to him is so obvious.

I say I don't feel that Bob's question was a slip and state that Rikablue was likely wrong in his analysis in my initial post. This triggers a conspiracy theory. All of a sudden his town read Rikablue is not a town read anymore after I enter the picture. Post 491 The main thing I changed was my scum targets. I had been more active, contributing more thoughts and looking at every plausible scenario. Somehow, these actions made me scummier in the eyes of Dr. Pepper.

Dr. Pepper has been leaving little sheep crumbs that Bacde is scummy. I think this is Dr. Pepper's position for if you lynch and I flip town. Post 426 Dr. Pepper implies that Bacde, the IC, is sheeping/fence sitting despite me giving a plausible opinion on why yessiree could be lynched. Sometimes agreeing in the face of evidence is not sheeping/fence sitting, but logical play. Dr. Pepper has been subtly placing that IC is scum theory by his innate focus on why the IC didn't die. He's trying to guide you to the conclusion the IC is scum but he's trapped from saying it himself because it would go against the narrative he has created for himself.

That narrative is a conspiracy theory. Dr. Pepper's focus has been on lynching me since I replaced Rikablue. He says Rikablue is town before I came along. See Post 206. Basically he said "Barring an epic bus" Rikablue is town. Post 491 is where he goes full on conspiracy theory. He says he read Rikablue is town barring an epic bus.

All of a sudden, Dr. Pepper says that I'm scummy because I entered the game and changed my opinion. I didn't think the question by Bob was a slip at all. That leads Dr. Pepper to the conclusion that I'm mafia and that Rikablue was conducting an "epic bus". The more logical and accurate conclusion was that I was town that disagreed with Rikablue, the former account holder. But wait, there's another problem why Dr. Pepper can't just say that. I fosed him in the off-chance Yessiree was innocent.

Dr. Pepper blew a gasket. Why blow a gasket if the group was sure Yessiree was scum? That's because Dr. Pepper knew he was scum (and Yessiree was innocent). Since my replacement, he's been tunnelling me damn near exclusively. Why not look at the other players? Why not show the other players are town, eventually guiding the group back to your original conclusion? That's because he really wants me lynched. It was this very behavior on his part that caused me to doubt the Yessiree train.

He also has been attempting to provoke me and make you jump to rash conclusions. When I'm shorter and conciser in posting, my defenses are "weak". See post 470. I've lost count of how many times Dr. Pepper has said I'm obvious scum along with Bob. This is a play to your emotions rather than encouraging real analysis. He also wouldn't need to say he's done proving I am scum/defending himself without ever actually being over. He keeps on tunnelling.
If it was so obvious, then Dr. Pepper wouldn't have to rely on twisting my words.

Dr. Pepper also has taken several of my quotes and accused them of being scum slips when they have not been at all. I'll put forth two of the most notorious examples.

"Being the hammer" is not the problem.

He takes this quote Post 449 and argues it is a scum slip. It's not. Clearly, I'm talking about a past game where the hammerer on a mislynch was indeed a townie. Dr. Pepper acts like it was the lack of permission he had that made him look scummy. I was pretty much saying call a spade a spade. Hammering with significant investigation left to do is scummy, in my opinion regardless of how long the day has lasted. See Post 510.

The alleged confirmed town slip.

In Post 610, Dr. Pepper suggests that I made a slip in saying confirmed town called him town. However, I quickly showed that I was referring to Yessiree and that I was trying to bury the hatchet and focus on scumhunting by posting analysis on the whole group. Dr. Pepper immediately backtracks on this being a slip. Post 614.

I ask him to re-evaluate me because one of his alleged slips was verifiably false. He refuses. Why refuse? If he goes back and still thinks I'm scum at least he could pretend he's analyzing. He's not analyzing at all. He's just yelling at you that his solution is obvious. He's appearing overly confident so you get on his bandwagon without thinking. He doesn't welcome analysis. That's the only conclusion I can reasonably draw from that.

Yessiree provides the best possible defense to Dr. Pepper's conspiracy theory which started this ball of wax. Yessireee's Post. Just reread it knowing that Yessiree was town. I know many of you thought he was insane but I think he was trying to draw scum to his train once he feared being lynched. He wound up drawing town instead and giving NS a good mislynch. Of course, that's my read.

Vote: Dr. Pepper

[Titus]

I did forget one other major thing that just happened in the past couple pages. What kind of player forgets the number of votes required to lynch if they are actually scumhunting?

[Bacde]

Guys, I'm really not feeling the Titus vs. DrP dichotomy

I really, really, really think they are both town.

There seems to be a lot of people taking advantage of Titus' playstyle to call him scummy for it, when he is annoying about it at best. I'm not seeing scum motivation from him.

Especially when we have players like CDB, Bi-Bob, and Pebro (and admittedly myself this past weekend) just sticking to the sidelines avoiding duking it out. Surely

at least one

of CDB, Bi-Bob, and Pebro is scum.