Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Grimgroove]

And equally important: why is pirate_mollie?

I don't know what i think about this. Will discuss with amrun.

Again I have to wonder why you would have to rely on your partner in order to know what to think?
Do you have a read on your partner?

[enomis]

Yes. Town.

[Grimgroove]

You missed a question there.

[enomis]

Because i am unsure of my read.

[Wisdom]

Why is Grim town?

Just a feeling I'm getting. He seems different than his scumgame I recently witnessed. Of course, nobody plays the same all the time, so that's not much of an argument, but that's the vibe I'm getting atm.

And equally important: why is pirate_mollie?

On this I'm more confident; her paranoia to think I'm scum is something I expected to see in the next game I'd have with her, due to her losing to me in Polygamist. Remember how Mara (Miss Destroyer) exhibited the same thing in Jason's game? It's the same, except mollie is not going to tunnel like Mara did. Hope so, at least.
Also, Majiffy seems like his town-self, and the fact he townreads mollie is reassuring too. As I said, they are able to townread each other, so I'll trust that.

[Grimgroove]

Because i am unsure of my read.

Are you confident enough about your Amrun-townread in order to be able to essentially leave your read in her hands? Sorry, but I don't see you as the guy who would normally do such a thing. Why do you think Amrun is in a better position to read what has been going on?
Do you have any other townreads?

[enomis]

Because i am unsure of my read.

Are you confident enough about your Amrun-townread in order to be able to essentially leave your read in her hands? Sorry, but I don't see you as the guy who would normally do such a thing. Why do you think Amrun is in a better position to read what has been going on?
Do you have any other townreads?

Through discussing with him, i find that it can strengthen my town read on him and vice-versa. Because two heads are always better than one. And the fact that we have a qt which prevents scum from reading our discussion if amrun is town is good.

[Venmar]

No it's town vs town because I townread both of them.

- Wow what a scumslip, obviously you got scum info for them being town *har har Wisdom logic har har*

#notevenkidding

[SafetyDance]

Oh jeez, trying to read this game.

[Haschel Cedricson]

No challenge has been issued yet.

The pool of players eligible to be lynched today consists of:

(NONE)

With 12 players alive, it will take 7 votes to lynch.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, I thought you could challenge teammates? Darn it, AP is my partner.

*sob* *sob*

You can always challenge another person you suspect of being scum...

I bet half this playerlist didnt know you couldn't challenge your partner.

Are you for real now?
Challenge goes from team to team, how the fuck do you challenge your own team?
It takes so much brain to understand that?
You want me to believe that there are people who failed to understand something this simple?

You portray Venmar as being an idiot for this post, yet you don't portray Amrun as (as much of) an idiot for forgetting there are four scum? The only time you address Amrun saying the wrong number, you say it's a possible, though potentially fake, towntell. Why are you harder on Venmar?

I repeated myself only once, when asking about the use of the QT's. I'll use it to my best abilities, or just hope StrangerCoug can use it better and secure a warranted town-read on me.
They seem incessant because I'm making the most of my time online. I don't see the link between "uselessness" and "persistence".
Rest assured I'm trying to determine alignment with these questions. You have your ways and I have mine. Trying to get a feel of the people and the game mechanics, while at the same time establishing my presence here.

I don't like the general ambiance in this topic

. Very long toes and very little goodwill/patience.

newsflash: I don't care

I have very little patience with newbs (although it was oddly recommended that I apply for IC status) unless I am mentoring them which is why I stay out of rome unless asked by a mod and I have zero patience or goodwill for someone who tries to dictate my play. you do not get to control the tone of this convo cos it is a 2 way street and there are 2 different people in it and we all have our ways. mafia is not all fluffy bunnies and roses if you want a site that likes that kind of shit in their mafia games I can recommend one.

I don't see Grimgroove's post as remotely newbish, even though yes, he is new. Where is he trying to control the conversation? Where is he trying to control how you are playing? This is quite a bit of an overreaction to a simple post.

I want you to post which posts you find scummy and explain why. you don't just get to sit back and call all of my posts until p6 scummy unless you can think of a scum motivation for doing so. fluff posts are alignment neutral unless they persist throughout the game.

You don't get to post all fluff for six pages. In most games there is serious discussion by then, and I would expect posts to be made accordingly.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts.

Though he should take later posts into consideration, as well, that does not make the early game irrelevant.

FoS: pirate mollie

[Wisdom]

You portray Venmar as being an idiot for this post, yet you don't portray Amrun as (as much of) an idiot for forgetting there are four scum? The only time you address Amrun saying the wrong number, you say it's a possible, though potentially fake, towntell. Why are you harder on Venmar?

The two things you're comparing are not even remotely similar.
There are scum in every game, and usually in 12p games there are 3 scum. I understood the assumption.
With challenges however.. it's a setup-specific thing that doesn't exist in other games; players that play in this game are supposed to read what it is and how it works.
And the fact that challenges go from team to team (and therefore you cannot challenge your partner) was not anything minimal to ignore. You could not possibly read about what challenges are and miss that.

[StrangerCoug]

Answers my question.

[Elyse]

I don't like how after Mollie and Grim's back-and-forth, Grim was like "But I don't even have a scumread on you. You asked me to say why you were scummy." (Yes eventually he developed a scumread) I can't really explain why but this is just something that seems very scummy to me. It's like he had this whole drawn out conversation with Mollie, knowing she thought she was a scumread of his, and then at the end, he was like "I never said that!" It reads as very insincere to me but I can't explain it that well.

[Grimgroove]

It's like he had this whole drawn out conversation with Mollie, knowing she thought she was a scumread of his, and then at the end, he was like "I never said that!"

What would the point of me doing such a thing be?

And it's true, I never said she was a scumread of mine, not counting our latest interaction. How can something that's objectively true be insincere? It's like saying 1+1=2, it doesn't matter if you're sincere about it, it's just truth.

pirate_mollie obviously assumed this because of my string of catch-up posts. I don't know if you've ever seen people catch up on things, but I don't think my procedure was out of the ordinary: go over the topic and quote those posts which strike you as odd. I did exactly this.

[Elyse]

Why didn't you just tell her that you didn't have a scumread on her?

I'll try to make an analogy because you make good ones that help most of the time. Mine will probably suck but oh well.

You mention something about (hm, a controversial topic. let's say abortion). You talk about someone you know getting an abortion and why you don't think it was a good decision. Mollie then asks why you think abortion is bad. You get into this whole argument about it and then you say "I don't think abortion is bad, you just asked me to say the points against it." It would have been much easier if you just said, "I don't think abortion is bad, it was just the wrong decision for the person I know" or something like that.

It wasted time and made you look like you were scumreading Mollie when you weren't. So there wasn't even a real point to the argument. Does that make sense?

[Grimgroove]

I think you clarified your point very well, and your question is legitimate.

Why didn't you just tell her that you didn't have a scumread on her?

I didn't have any read on her at the time. I didn't want to give the impression that I had a townread on her by saying I had no scumread on her. I also didn't want to sound apologetic for mentioning the posts that I did in my catch-up.
These reasons may seem incomplete, but my reaction was also not that thought out in this regard. It was the result of a very natural reaction, even though I realize calling something natural is makes it more unnatural. But it was.

I'll try to make an analogy because you make good ones that help most of the time. Mine will probably suck but oh well.

You mention something about (hm, a controversial topic. let's say abortion). You talk about someone you know getting an abortion and why you don't think it was a good decision. Mollie then asks why you think abortion is bad. You get into this whole argument about it and then you say "I don't think abortion is bad, you just asked me to say the points against it." It would have been much easier if you just said, "I don't think abortion is bad, it was just the wrong decision for the person I know" or something like that.

This analogy is very good. It would have made things easier, but less interesting. My thoughts about abortion have evolved through it, I have clarified why I think certain elements of abortion are bad and invited feedback on those comments, giving me further input for my opinion on abortion.

It wasted time and made you look like you were scumreading Mollie when you weren't. So there wasn't even a real point to the argument. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but I believe there was a point to the argument: why I thought his posts were scummy and her reaction to these arguments. I didn't mind she thought I thought she was scum, it results in a more involved and passionate discussion.

[SafetyDance]

Getting through this thread is like nails on a chalkboard at the moment. Will be more productive. Eventually.

If we're doing this soon, I have nfi about the deadline and without reading the last few pages, I'd be willing to challenge the Blues, Silvers or Purples at the moment.

[Wisdom]

Not the Oranges. Interesting.

[Nobody Special]

Not feeling well today. Top of page 8.

Should be caught up by .....tonight? maybe tomorrow morning.

[pirate mollie]

@ groovey kid

I am not going to do round of wall wars with you cos tbh I find them boring and tedious. I will do a round or 2 but anything beyond and my brains just shuts down. so I am not going to respond to you point by point, I am just going to go over the highlights.

- I am guessing that eno's response (who was more succinct and more articulate in his explanation than I ever could) as to why someone might want to talk to their partner cos you seem satisfied with the answer. the only thing I would add is that discussing reads with your partner is a good way to bounce off ideas cos one person might see something the other miss. it is 1 of the reasons why I like hydras (I am in 6), cos I have another person to talk to and it helps me to stay grounded. left to my own devices I am likely to be consumed by paranoia, get confused, jump at shadows and make terribad decisions. I am well aware of my strengths and weaknesses in mafia so I try to hydra with people who can balance that out. what I am wondering is why coug has not explained the benefits of having another person to bounce things off of in your qt and why you did not just ask him there instead of bringing it to the thread.

- why I am town reading majiffy: in gchat (and you may or may not understand this) he said, "don't mention ongoing games" cos he thought that I was referring to a game that was in the late stages where we pretty much went 1v1 for 3 game days. I wasn't. I was referring to if I do not get sort him out early I will remain paranoid for the entire game. <----- he came to this conclusion, all on his own through no help from me. the reason why I read tht as pure town was cos his chastisement came from a place where he was genuinely trying to get a read on me and didn't want an outside influence that he could not use. he was genuinely trying to read me where as scum he would already know my alignment. does this make sense?

- re: "fluff posting". the reason why I wanted you to look at that link I posted not cos I wanted to say "look see! I fluff post as town too!" but instead to demonstrate that not all "fluff posts" are actual fluff posts. in the that game I was accused of doing nothing but "fluff posting" and being useless when every single thing I did had a purpose behind it, it just would not be obvious to some people. I pegged nacho as scum early but knew I would not be able to get him lynched cos people were putting him as town for retarded reasons so instead I sheeped all of his votes and whenever someone would question me as to the reasoning behind my votes I would "baaaaahaaa" or pictures of sheep. I was the town role blocker and I was trying to fish out nacho's partner and them lynched, which I did, put his partner at L1 and he was hammered, blocked nacho (who tried to kill me cos he knew I knew he was scum) outed my role, lynched nacho, game won.

I have been playing mafia for a long time just on different sites. I have a different playstyle than most and a very large scumhunting toolbox. sometimes I will flirt, joke, get confrontational, talk about the weather or whatever in order to get players to drop their guard and give up a tell. the whole point is to disarm the player in order to get a read. I base my reads on how people react and try to determine if it comes from a town or scum mindset. I once got uber goober to let down his guard and tell me why scum was keeping me alive in posh. <----- still couldn't get him lynched even though he stated it right there in the thread.

I am simply not everyone's cup of tea and I am pretty sure you will never understand "mollie logic". I don't think like most people and a lot of people scumread me for this but what I have noticed is that it is usually scum who are sticky with their read cos when I am town I freaking scream town.

is there anything else you would like to know

[pirate mollie]

hi coug

let's dance.

I repeated myself only once, when asking about the use of the QT's. I'll use it to my best abilities, or just hope StrangerCoug can use it better and secure a warranted town-read on me.
They seem incessant because I'm making the most of my time online. I don't see the link between "uselessness" and "persistence".
Rest assured I'm trying to determine alignment with these questions. You have your ways and I have mine. Trying to get a feel of the people and the game mechanics, while at the same time establishing my presence here.

I don't like the general ambiance in this topic

. Very long toes and very little goodwill/patience.

newsflash: I don't care

I have very little patience with newbs (although it was oddly recommended that I apply for IC status) unless I am mentoring them which is why I stay out of rome unless asked by a mod and I have zero patience or goodwill for someone who tries to dictate my play. you do not get to control the tone of this convo cos it is a 2 way street and there are 2 different people in it and we all have our ways. mafia is not all fluffy bunnies and roses if you want a site that likes that kind of shit in their mafia games I can recommend one.

I don't see Grimgroove's post as remotely newbish, even though yes, he is new. Where is he trying to control the conversation? Where is he trying to control how you are playing? This is quite a bit of an overreaction to a simple post.

I think him asking about why I would want to talk to talk to majiffy first before committing to reads is very newbish. my "overreaction" is more or less my aversion to tone trolling, which is what he was doing.

I want you to post which posts you find scummy and explain why. you don't just get to sit back and call all of my posts until p6 scummy unless you can think of a scum motivation for doing so. fluff posts are alignment neutral unless they persist throughout the game.

You don't get to post all fluff for six pages. In most games there is serious discussion by then, and I would expect posts to be made accordingly.

okay so what serious discussion do you think was going on that I should have been responding to? tbh when this game started I had just had a margarita and was feeling pretty light hearted. I interacted with ap and he didn't seem nervous nor uncomfortable so I was leaning town on him. I pushed him a bit in order to solidify the read and I think his "why is mollie freaking out on me" post seems genuine. his reads and the logic for them are terribad IMO but terribad reads do not make him scum. he is unsure/ leaning town at the mo but I am expecting him to do some stuff before I call him town.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts.

Though he should take later posts into consideration, as well, that does not make the early game irrelevant.

FoS: pirate mollie

I never said it was irrelevant. where did you get that? I said I found it weird that groovey kid's read on me had not progressed. scum don't take in new info and assimilate it and work from there. they instead find flawed reasons for remaining sticky with their reads.

[AngryPidgeon]

also I am still a bit pissy cos you like gave me no credit for figuring out everyone's alignment on d1 in poetic justice.

Ok. I don't just randomly compliment people, but you did read Majiffy especially well iirc if that is what you are getting at.

did you look at the game I linked where wisdom was scum?

I'll take a peek after work, I dont even remember seeing a link.

Mollie's 216 seems a bit contrived to come from scum - probably an honest observation. 223 also makes me wanna townread mollie and not look back.

But Justice was Buldermar.

lol. This game needs some delicious buldermar.

Which earned him alot of town cred last game. Part of why nacho believed he was town?

What game are you talking about?

Don't like how he fell silent in the QT

You have been a fountain of contentful posting in the QT, pardon me.

[AngryPidgeon]

I don't like how AP just didn't respond to me at all.

What about it being orderly conduct and therefore a plan?

I could be incredibly redundant if you'd like.

It appears to me that Wisdom is actively shifting his meta in this game. He's trying a different approach than I've seen him use in any other game.

Do you think hes scummy for that?

And if we could all vote yes or no to proceed with the nomination plan, please?

How about we use common sense and just declare intent to challenge someone so people who have huge objections to it can object.

I am not getting her town read on dance guy or me

Ya, is that QT based? I assumed it was. Apparently it was a joke, lol.

My obvtown read on SD was a joke since he hasn't posted content.

Sorry I thought you guys would get that.

@enomis
I already said that I found it strange that Wisdom attacked Amrun with so much venom. If it wasn't serious it would lie more with the meta I had on him. But apparently his meta is different.

I don't like how you're making generalizations about me asking useless questions and posting useless comments. The only "useless" one I can think of is my joke read on SD.

I didn't read it as a joke

Lol, wtf is this post. So is Elyse lying to cover up a scumslip in your mind?

[AngryPidgeon]

P-P-edit:

She really did call herself likely town for the plan

and then defend the plan by pointing to "experience". That is not town motivated.

Part in bold: Not true.
The rest: Don't agree.

Yes, she did:

In fact, traditionally, such suggestions are made far more often by town

Grim is not commenting on my alignment but soft-agrees with Venmar's 'case' on me and implies I'm blatantly misrepping events in the thread. I'm basically down to lynch that with no questions asked right now.