Newbie 1388 Nexlexia Game Over

[JKMatthews]

Hmmm, so slow days at work mean I actually get to do some ISOing. And I'm pretty happy with an NS lynch. NS/Bob is actually possible, but it's probably not worth dwelling on until we see a flip.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

Titus - I recommend you stop tunnelling me as town. It's making you lazy in your conversation with me.

[Titus]

Tunneling you as town? What do you mean by that? I thought tunnelling only applied when you were hunting scum?

[DoctorPepper]

The point is you were comparing two different scenarios with different contexts. And you were saying Its scummy to hammer when people are fine with it. Let me correct this mindset. Its not scummy to hammer after a claim and he claims VT. Its scummy to quick hammer with 11 days left because thats so anti town its freaking stupid. Hammering with 5 days left is fine.

Besides, JKM is right. When someone said anyone aside from me, we expected you'd say NS cause he's supposedly your second scum read. Then you say CDB, but later you back track and say its meta/playstyle.

Your 774 makes absolutely 0 sense.

JKM was responsible for the hammer as well, as he claimed. Why is he not "pinging your scumdar" if you supposedly think early ending hammers are scummy when he authorized it? This is inconsistent

I will however, be contented with a Bob lynch

[JKMatthews]

Here's some quotes from NS's ISO. His change of heart on Bob's 'slip' seems to come about at the same time that it's obvious that Bob isn't going to simply be lynched because of it. Seems to me like scum going for the easy lynch then trying to look like the good guy when it doesn't happen.

Spoiler:

unvote

Vote: Bi-Bob

Yep, that's a scumsllip.

Truth be told, I switched to yessiree because he's an irritating little shit who also happens to be scum.

I also think Bob is still scum.

So many choices.

I've been thinking about Bob's supposed scumslip for a few days. I've been going back to my first days playing Mafia (not here.... about 6 years ago) and while I honestly can't recall if I had the exact question (whether I had to be alive to win), I do remember my mindset when being presented with the newness of Mafia. Questioning whether I had to be alive to win would not have been an absurd question, to my mind.

TL;DR: Bob's 'slip' is not really so much. Still ready to hang yessiree.

Questioning whether I had to be alive to win would not have been an absurd question, to my mind.

Bob's slip didn't involve knowing whether he had to be alive to win.

Bob's "slip" was for not knowing the town win condition, if I remember correctly.

Does this affect your belief that Bob slipped?

In 223, Bob says that he assumed the "real winners" {quotes mine} were the survivors. That speaks to his understanding of the town wincon. (Also, bear in mind his first exposure to mafia was on Cracked.com, ffs. There's no way they can play anything close to a real game of mafia over there.)

In 226, he talks about having "just read" the Role PM. I believe other people were assuming he had 'just' (as in just prior to making

that post)

read the PM, whereas I interpret his

I assumed, even after I read the role PM, that the real winners are the ones who live to tell about it

as saying that he thought that even after reading his Role PM {at the beginning of the game}.

Now, please: Explain to me the distinction between a newbtown not knowing whether he had to be alive to win, and a newbtown not knowing the town wincon. Or rather, explain how not knowing you can win while dead negates knowledge of the general town wincon. Or both, really.

This also looks concerning to me:

I haven't made posts here lately because I've been enjoying watching you make a complete fool of yourself. And you don't need my help to do it, either. Yay!

I rarely defend myself. Very rarely. Town have little need to defend themselves, as they should be scumhunting. Relatedly, I rarely defend myself as scum because -- wait for it -- I'm trying to look townish.

The Careful Reader will note that the above post is not in any way an alignment tell. yessiree, however, will jump on it and swear I just claimed scum.

Now that we know yessiree is town, this seems like NS discrediting yessiree before he even has a chance to respond...

@Dr P - why Bob over NS?

[Titus]

Thank you! You are much clearer than me.

Vote: Nobody's Special

774 makes total sense. If you cannot be certain who is scum directly, you can solve the puzzle backwards. Start by eliminating known towns. Then, when you get to who is left, they have to be scum. That's the process of elimination.

[Titus]

Tunneling you as town? What do you mean by that? I thought tunnelling only applied when you were hunting scum?

You missed this question JKM.

[JKMatthews]

774 doesn't make sense, because scum don't need to help provide PoE that leaves themselves as the only scum... that's absurd.

I guess tunnelling is the wrong word, but I mean you refuse to accept I may be scum.
For example, you asked me why I voted Bob, and my Venn Diagram answer was essentially "because I think Bob might be scum" - read: not an answer. You didn't even question me on it, but moved on. If you simply gloss over things in your questioning, you're dooming yourself to fail. Or you know, fake scumhunting?

[Titus]

You're going to have to grab me whatever post. You would have needed a reason, I shouldn't have let you go easy if you didn't.

Right, scum don't NEED to help do process of elimination. However, process of elimination works as a method of countering scum who tunnel you. Eventually, by proving everyone else innocent, then the town should see that the other guy is scum who has been tunnelling you. If not, you take the lynch but town wins anyway. Their refusal to go along with it only highlights them as scum. If for some reason you encounter a hiccup in the process of elimination, maybe you were wrong about your target being scum.

[Titus]

Also, what kinda of town says maybe they are scum? That's freaking weird JKM.

[DoctorPepper]

You dont get the point now, do you? He literally asked why arent suspecting him. Youre buddying him.

I want Bob because I dont read NS as scum, he plays like this pretty much all his games. Bob however, look at his responses to my questions and his piss poor reason to jump my wagon. Also Day 1

[JKMatthews]

Because on the Venn Diagram of "Titus is scum" and "Titus isn't scum", Bob's sitting neatly in the middle for me at the moment.

I never explained

why

for either case...

I... I don't know how you can possibly think that makes sense? A scenario:
You and Dr P move on from the tunnelling of each other, and both look for other potential scum. You both end up in seperate tunneling wars (let's say you v me and Dr P v CDB). This goes on with continual laying down of the hatchet until 10 different pairs of people have tunnelled each other and move on. Now... apply PoE to tell me who scum is? Let me know if I'm not understanding your point.

Also, what kinda of town says maybe they are scum? That's freaking weird JKM.

The irony is that you responding to my accusation of you not being analytical about me as scum like this makes

you

scummier. It's trying too hard. Why is it weird for me to say "if you're town, from your point of view I could be scum". That's 100% of the purpose of the game, why wouldn't I say it? I'm glad you see me as town, but the way you're treating that conclusion is making your play sloppy.

[Titus]

And I was saying his logic for suspecting me of buddying was off. I've questioned him. He's given appropriate answers. I'm not going to question someone incessentanly. If someone gives me a logical answer, I move on.

Umm JKM, if there's 10 pairs of people playing a game designed for less than 10 we have a problem. So yeah, I don't think you're understanding. The setup is designed for a situation like the one where we currently have. I would prove that you, Pebro, Bacde, and Bob were innocent. Scum wouldn't run around proving town innocent. By doing that, you'd see the obvious facts that I'm town.

I do believe you did. I don't exactly keep a list but I would have noticed something scummy from you and commented on it. I've commented on things such as your sudden changing of mind from hearing from Channel. You answered. I really don't think I would have let something slip for no reason.

[JKMatthews]

You dont get the point now, do you? He literally asked why arent suspecting him. Youre buddying him.

I want Bob because I dont read NS as scum, he plays like this pretty much all his games. Bob however, look at his responses to my questions and his piss poor reason to jump my wagon. Also Day 1

Ok, so my post 778 - do you disagree with my analysis? Can you tell me why those things don't make you concerned? I'm not talking about NS's playstyle, I'm talking about the specific things he's said.
I think you're being biased because it's you - I don't think his reasons for voting you are poor at all. Also, why would he need a reason to switch to you? You weren't close to lynch, and he'd been focussing on NS with valid points until he decided to focus on you. Explain the scum motivation behind him needing to find a reason to switch to you...?

[JKMatthews]

Umm JKM, if there's 10 pairs of people playing a game designed for less than 10 we have a problem. So yeah, I don't think you're understanding. The setup is designed for a situation like the one where we currently have. I would prove that you, Pebro, Bacde, and Bob were innocent. Scum wouldn't run around proving town innocent. By doing that, you'd see the obvious facts that I'm town.

I do believe you did. I don't exactly keep a list but I would have noticed something scummy from you and commented on it. I've commented on things such as your sudden changing of mind from hearing from Channel. You answered. I really don't think I would have let something slip for no reason.

There are more than 10 pairs of people in a game with 5 people. If I were to ask you now to list all the possible scum pairs, you think the answer is only 4 because there's 8 players in the game...?
I'm saying nothing about that scenario proves anyone innocent. This feels like banging my head against a brick wall, but let me boil it down for you:

If you and Dr P 'bury the hatchet', in what way does it prove/disprove either of you as town. From there, if you repeat with somebody other than Dr P, how will that prove/disprove either of you as town?

I didn't. You'll have to look for yourself because I can't quote posts that don't exist. That was my sole response as to why I voted Bob.

[DoctorPepper]

If you can justify why "using loopholes in logic" is not a bad reason to vote, I'll rethink.

I dont get a scum read from NS because its how he plays. He changed his mind. Not scummy (and if you believe Titus, apparently changing my mind will result tome not being scum).

[Bicephalous Bob]

I wasn't at all confident that CDB would come back in a timely fashion, and wagons tend to stagnate and fall apart when not maintained.

There were no signs of the wagon falling apart. You, one of the biggest supporters of the yessirree lynch, were the first one to leave the wagon. Did you think Titus was more likely to be scum than yessirree when you changed your vote to Titus?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't've moved my vote.

Did you think yessirree was more likely to be scum than Titus when you changed your vote back to yessirree to hammer him? What made you change your mind?

[Bicephalous Bob]

I have already [explained why I think the lack of a night kill indicates mafiosi with experience], but fine.
Usual newbie scum game meta, kill the IC night one because the IC is mistakenly thought of as the biggest threat. Thus some newbie scum try to kill the IC while some newbie doctors do the same and try to protect the IC.

This is an explanation of why the lack of a night kill indicates unexperienced scum, which is what I said. You claimed the opposite was true and you used this as a reason to point a finger at Bacde.

[Titus]

Ok I've seen this but I had a busy day at work. I will reply tomorrow with more depth if asked.

@JKM, The act of buying the hatchet alone (by that I mean not arguing back and forth over and over) does not prove either person as town. However, by doing that, the players must analyze posts from other people. That analysis (or lack thereof) should reveal who is scummy. If that still doesn't work, then the town player would logically show who else is town. If a player proves other players are town, then most likely the player doing the proving is town since scum don't go out of their way to prove people as town.

[Titus]

@JKM I'm not seeing how scum pairs are relevant. Also, disagreeing with analysis doesn't mean scummy.

@Dr. Pepper You seem to have missed post 787.

@All, Sorry for the slower day. I had a long day at work. Tomorrow may be better.

[Bacde]

@Titus do you still think DrP is scum?

@DrP do you have a townread on NS?

[JKMatthews]

Titus, you've essentially summarised the game of mafia... Initially you implied that by burying the hatchet there was some great action plan that you were putting into place, but if two town can have a conversation and "prove each other town", there wouldn't be a game to be played. I'm so confused by what you think exactly your endgame is here...
I was using scumpairs as an example of the maths of makings pairs of players... are you intentionally not seeing the meaning in the things I post?

@Bacde - what do you think of NS?

[Bicephalous Bob]

I probably won't be able to post for the next three days.

[DoctorPepper]

@Bacde, yes I think NS is town.
This is my read list, from town to scum
Bacde
JKM
NS
Pebro
CDB
Titus
Bob

And Titus, I answered 787. Anyway Maybe I have had conf bias towards you, and everything you say makes you scum to me. I think if you are town and this is TvT, then scum wants to just sit back and watch. So Bacde is town for suggesting TvT and other people who havent taken a stand, could be the scum Bacde was talking about.

My vote is better here atm
VOTE: Bicephalous Bob

[Pebro]

Titus, why didn't the mechanics questions came up in your first game here?

It seems the main points Titus/Pepper are scummy are their arguments for lynching the other, it seems like they're looking for reasons to vote for eachother instead of looking for scum. If one is scum I wouldn't discount the other being scum.

Unvote
Vote & Prod CDB

Looking for reasons to vote each other? Ergo I if I do that, then I think they are scum. What was the purpose of this? Its like you did this to make it seem like you had an actual say in the matter

I thought the purpose is to explain why someone is scum not to pick(think) someone as scum and do your very best to make every post of them seems scummy.

[Nexus]

Votecount 2.2:

DoctorPepper (2) -

ChannelDelibird, Bicephalous Bob

Bicephalous Bob (1) -

DoctorPepper

ChannelDelibird (2)-

Nobody Special, Pebro

Nobody Special (2)-

JKMatthews, Titus

Not voting (1) -

Bacde

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is at 6pm BST on 12th July 2013.