Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Nobody Special]

Vote Count 1.04

Kueshina (3) Lynx_Shine, TheTrollie, sikon327
fferyllt (2) Kueshina, likeabauss
likeabauss (2) Cheery Dog, JasonWazza

Not Voting

cAPSLOCK, fferyllt




With 9 it takes 5 to lynch


(expired on 2013-07-05 00:14:37)

NEW DEADLINE -- will not be extended again, make good use of it.

[fferyllt]

Thanks for the deadline extension NS/Rach <3

VOTE: likeabauss

[TheTrollie]

YAY NS/RACH mod team!

wuddup...why r we voting likeabauss?

[fferyllt]

Post 313 was the tipping point.

[sikon327]

Gah. Likeabauss, why. 313 sounds like you've run out of reasons to say ff is actually scum and are appealing to chance. The argument seems dubious anyway. Regardless of what qualms I have about ff, she's at least contributed some good information. If she turns out to be town, we'll have sacrificed an experienced player capable of valuable insight for the sake of a player who, regardless of alignment, seems to be incapable of forming a case without a blatant logical flaw in it. That doesn't seem like good tactics to me.

I also notice your somewhat out-of-place attempt to butter up Cheery Dog (the one person with a vote on you at that time) in 317 and 318 ("I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.").

UNVOTE: Kueshina
VOTE: likeabauss

If it's any consolation, I think that you've successfully derailed the wagon on Kueshina.

Congratulations!

[sikon327]

EBWOP

Since I've just cast the vote, and I don't know if any of the more experienced players who'd usually explain this are online, I assume I should explain,

just in case

anyone does not know:

With fferyllt's vote and mine,

likeabauss is now at L-1

. If you intend to place a vote on him, I urge you to first

announce

that you intend to place the lynching vote, and ask him to

claim his role

. I understand it's very, very bad form to hammer someone who has not yet either claimed or demonstrated a refusal to claim.

[fferyllt]

THAT IS L-1

DO NOT VOTE WITHOUT POSTING INTENT TO HAMMER AND GIVING LIKEABAUSS TIME TO ROLE CLAIM.

[fferyllt]

That bandwagon sprang up fast. It's close to nightfall, but still.

It would be good for Lynx and Kues to post before nightfall.

[fferyllt]

Thanks for the second post Sikon.

[Lynx_Shine]

Dunno if have to announce VLA beforehand, but starting tomorrow afternoon I'll be away through Sunday for Anime Expo. I may be able to post from the hotel, but from what it looks like I'll mostly be away during Night anyways.

Where I play I've never actually heard of or used a read list thing analysis for NKs. I've torn through them and found scum, but they were always a disadvantage if you weren't Town. So that's new to me.

Trollie just seems disinterested. I guess not scummy, just frustrating.

Bauss is L-1, not what I expected to see. I don't see him as hardscum, but if he does flip, I think it clears ffery of any suspicion I personally have. If Town, no change. I'd go him over no lynch.

Cheery/IamKingDavid have been anything but vocal scumhunters, bauss. It's why they are currently in my list. Cheery can change that by getting into this game and doing shit.

I'm teetering enough on cAPS that I'm not actively opposed to it. Mostly a few back-and-forths. Cheery has been kind of there, kinda townish maybe so far imo but not highly vocal after their first few page.

The argument of "lynch the most experienced" is sketchy as hell. That's exactly why I'm hesitant on actually attempting a ffery wagon as opposed to Kue because we lose that much experience because she

might

be hiding well.

wuddup...why r we voting likeabauss?

Are you even bothering to read the thread? It was like

10 posts previous.

I don't plan to hammer since there's another day and this wagon may fall apart as quickly as it came together, I may change my mind in the morning if nobody else has.

[TheTrollie]

dude i dont rly see him as scum. cant we lynch someone else?

[fferyllt]

Trollie, why do you think Kues is scum?

[TheTrollie]

ff will get to ur q in a sec. i dont necesarily need a kues lynch but i dont think bauss is very scummy, here is the post u directed me to regarding scum-bauss:

Sikon, roll with me on Fferyllt. I'm pretty sure Kue is town. Lynx, you too.

this in-and-of-itself reads fairly town to me. pretty genuine expression of trying to lead a wagon on a scum-read

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

ok, so lets discuss:

@likeabauss:

this is so not true. (a) an experienced town player way helps town. (b) this is a bad reason to lynch someone, especially on D1. if on D3 u have no good leads and ur still paranoid about an experienced player playing a good scum game, then MAYBE u should consider that lynch (c) you need to weigh your read on the person against this analysis, which means (1) since I have a town read on FF that would be a dumb lynch and (2) since it is more likely for her to be town than scum, its stupid to lynch on the basis of "oh no if she is scum she is gonna beat us up" (d) you say urself that scum will kill off experienced townies (not true, but lets assume u really feel that way). that means its stupid to lynch FF if you think she would be the obvious target of the NK.

@ff and whoever else thinks this is scummy

: its not, its just wrong. This looks like newbtown more than newbscum. newbscum is usually too cautious to make these types of pushes, especially on D1, and especially when there is resistance to the lynch they are trying to push (which, I at least am being resistant to).

Plus I'm pretty sure Fferyllt is mafia and Kue is town.

Also, her short list for hanging includes the most vocal (active) scum hunters in this game. Me, caps, and Cheery. Doesn't that bother anybody else?

no, it doesnt.

@ff: is caps still on ur scum list? what is ur reasoning there? Also i would consider a Cheery lynch i think, i saw some things i wasnt thrilled about in a recent CD post. will dig that up in a sec.

We need to hang somebody, and I'll derail the Kue wagon until I'm blue in the face because Fferyllt is a better tactical lynch even if you aren't sure what to do, or who is town/scum. BTW, I think Kue is town and Fferyllt is mafia. Did I say that yet? Should I say it again?

ok, so (a) this is another townie thing to say, the joking nature of the last line sounds pretty town. (b) as noted above, we are not lynching ff

[TheTrollie]

unvote

just did a re-read on kues and dont know what gave me such scum vibes...

im gonna re ISO the players i havent really thought about too much later tonight...i know we are close to deadline but id really like to not vote bauss if i can help it

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: likeabauss

So we all have time to think about the advisability of a bauss lynch without risk of a hammer.

[fferyllt]

trollie, caps was actually a recent addition to my scum list. I'll go into more detail on why later today.

[likeabauss]

Wow, that happened really fast. Give me a couple hours and I'll respond to everybody's questions.

[fferyllt]

@ff and whoever else thinks this is scummy: its not, its just wrong. This looks like newbtown more than newbscum. newbscum is usually too cautious to make these types of pushes, especially on D1, and especially when there is resistance to the lynch they are trying to push (which, I at least am being resistant to).

I want to respond to this. He's not newbtown. By his own account, he's rusty due to not playing for a couple years, and I don't dispute that.

In his first newbie game at ms he tunneled the fuck out of the IC. And he was right, in that game the IC was scum. So, maybe this is following his previous winning strategy or something. And I've been pretty much willing to assume that he's confirmation-biased out the wazoo and let him be. But, I recognize that there's a possibility he could be trying to emulate that game as cover in this one. The meta a person knows about himself (and he knows this about himself, he brought it up as a reason for following him) is useless for determining alignment.

[cAPSLOCK]

My internet access is spottier than I thought it would be. I am on the blue ridge parkway near Mt Pisgah.

That said I HAVE been paying attention. I have been leaning to voting for likeabauss for reasons I have previously mentioned as well as some recent developments. I think Jason's recent catch of likeabauss wanting to vote because a player is experienced is especially damning. I don't know if my vote would be a hammer so I will hold off for a few moments. Day one is over really soon, yes?

[JasonWazza]

It's not a hammer because ff unvoted, and 1 day and 12 hours from now day will end.

[cAPSLOCK]

OK. I see. I will still wait a bit and watch.

Lets hear from likeabauss.

[TheTrollie]

ff, ill re-read caps, also what happened to the jason scum-read some of you had? ill ISO him too. My town read on caps was really strong but because of that i havent been paying much attention to him at all, so im willing to change that read if i find something in the ISO

i get what you are saying about bauss's strategy. it makes sense BUT i think his town story makes more sense. Also, your reasoning for what he is doing is equally applicable to town-bauss who is trying to replicate his winning strat in his last game

[fferyllt]

ff, ill re-read caps, also what happened to the jason scum-read some of you had? ill ISO him too. My town read on caps was really strong but because of that i havent been paying much attention to him at all, so im willing to change that read if i find something in the ISO

Jason's looking at the whole game again and he's participating. In fact it's clear that he's watching the game closely because he helicopters right in when something changes the game state. That feels townish to me. I think scum Jason would be a little more ahint the door when it comes to appearances, but that's me applying a very sketchy scum-Jason model.

i get what you are saying about bauss's strategy. it makes sense BUT i think his town story makes more sense. Also, your reasoning for what he is doing is equally applicable to town-bauss who is trying to replicate his winning strat in his last game

Yeah, this is all true. One of the reasons I unvoted is because I want to give myself time to cool off and think things over because as the target of the tunneling it's difficult to be objective and I don't want my vote decision to be based even a little bit on just wanting someone to stfu.

[TheTrollie]

I will say that the line in likeabauss's 313 post that is like "scum will probably want to kill off experienced town" (referring to ff) is pretty bad though. town-bauss should have realized that didnt make sense.

[TheTrollie]

I see the scum-likeabauss argument now...i have a gut-feeling that this is a bad lynch but i'd be lying if i said there weren't some highly questionable things in his play. so, scum things in bauss's play:

(1) he withholds info OFTEN. a lot of "i have my reasons..." post, some of which go on to ask others for their input which is sometimes indicative of scum wading the waters and trying to get a lynch going without being the real ringleader
(2)My biggest concern is that he is just tunneling so hard on ff for what seem to be very bad reasons. If im saying he is town, i have to accept that he somehow thinks his case makes sense.

bauss, i need you to be very clear on what your case is against ff. I TRUELY don't see ff scum, and the only arguments for how she could be scum that I see are totally unconvincing...here are some questions:

1) I vote, stay vague, and say I have some reasons.
2) She utters a no content response that says "I thought you were scum, but now I'm not so sure because you're voting for me." (which I initially misinterpreted.)

why is it surprising or scummy that she gives a "no content response" to a no content ("vague") read. what type of content in the response are you looking for when you never gave any content for her to respond to? how does this indicate her scum alignment?

3) I escalate in response, and point her to your case, and that of Lynx_Shine (which she basically ignored from the get go.)
4) She responds again with another "no real content post." (correcting me on parsing, but then completely dodging the two arguments against her again.) An hour later, giving her plenty of time to respond to both, she asks somebody else to post more content.

granted, i have not looked closely at this, but your explanation of this exchange does not make me think ff was being very scummy. maybe point me in the direction of where this was?

5) At this point, I reply a bit more inflammatory, and hint at a piece of the case against her:
This is one of my key reasons I think she is scum, but how does she respond?
6)She gives me exactly what I asked for. 3 scum suspects, her reasons for all 3, and a vote for one... not before offering an excuse for why she hadn't done it yet:

so she is really scummy because she gave you what you asked for when you finally made a not-so-vague request?

Really, REALLY need to hear more from bauss about why ff is scum, otherwise i think i am going to believe that bauss is just tunneling scum.

gotta track down that meta ff was referring to on bauss.