Case against Fferyllt:
Please note, not all items are well explained as much of this is straight from my personal notes. I'll clarify anything that isn't clear upon request.
Non Pro-Town Play:
1) No scum hunting to speak of early game. As soon as I called her out on this she rectified it immediately. Most of her early game posts read like a narrator telling a story, not a character in the story. Contributions are mostly about game play/mechanics, consistent with an IC role, but not a townie trying to hang bad guys.
2) Asking questions about game play mechanics and opinions of certain strategies doesn't help find scum. Things like:
In post 210, fferyllt wrote:What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of full, ranked reads lists?
It's adding content, without finding scum, IMO. Adding content is great so long as you're looking for bad guys too. At this point, I didn't feel that was the case.
3) Complete ambiguity in her reads. She's non-committal until something pushes her or somebody catches wagon momentum. Posts vacillate between suspecting somebody, but leaning town on the same player. After I call her out, she lashes out in 142, 143, and 144 with 3 "cases" for scum... weaksauce at best. Now, look forward to her post in 312. There isn't a single strong scum read in it, nor her original stuff. She's opening the door and waiting to see which wagons will catch steam. She hopped right in on my wagon when I started catching votes. She said she'd vote Kue, with the disclaimer that she thinks Kue is town (WHY WOULD YOU BE OKAY HANGING A TOWNIE IF YOU HAVE SUSPECTS? TOWN FAIL.) There haven't been any other wagons, she's not pushing for anybody, she apparently doesn't care who hangs... unless it's imking, jason, lynx (posts 142-144) or me-bauss, cAPSLOCK, cheery, or Kue (post 312.) Clearly, she doesn't care who we hang as long as it isn't her or Sikon or Trollie. Everybody else is game.
4) Overstatement of contributions to the Town side. Example:
In post 170, fferyllt wrote:What are your thoughts about the convo Lynx and I have had about Kueshina and Sikon?
In an effort to appear town, and to be playing pro-town, scum will point to something they did as if it was a bigger contribution than it was. I explained this in thread.
5) Psycho teaser bait I set + response:
In post 148, fferyllt wrote:In post 139, fferyllt wrote:
Substance and quantity is a little lacking in some quarters still, and it's primarily experienced players who seem to be holding back. I'm done waiting for content.
"I'm done waiting for content." Translation: HERE COMES THE BOOM
indeed.
There was no Boom in her response. It was a whimper. Look back and see her "Boom." You mean to tell me that an experienced pro mafia player lays out their best cases/reads and that's all we can expect? Nope. Scum.
6)
In post 127, Lynx_Shine wrote:
In post 108, fferyllt wrote:Agree on 85 and 97. I may be too much a part of the topic to judge re 81.
Agrees with Trollie when he offers his proof on caps after ffery specifically asks him for the reason, but never gives her own reads or reasoning. The IC is claiming Town reads on two players, shows no proof of her own hunting or clearing?
Lynx broke it, and stated it well, so I'll just share quote.
Guilty Conscience Maneuvers:
Concept explained:
In post 70, likeabauss wrote:
It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.
1) Defending against an accusation made against somebody else. See post 6 + 8.
2) Change in Play - Reactionary to Accusations - I call her out, she changes style. Good guys don't change the way they play because somebody calls them out on it and says its shady. See post 146 for details.
3) IC post - cAPSLOCK mentioned it initially, I had noticed it. In another game here on MS I picked up on a similar nuance. Please note, this is NUANCE, but it supports the guilty conscience maneuvers.
Straight Scum:
1) Control of conversation/information - Check thread activity. Huge post count. Lots of posts, not much scum hunting. Adding content without scum hunting. For IC portion of role, fine. For Townie role, no good. Look at changes of conversation direction, leading questions (opening doors), and constant interjection/restatement of positions.
2) Appeal to emotion - after my attacks/tunneling, direct responses to me drip with emotional appeals.
3) Waffling: Back and forth on reads, non committal, following the leader/momentum.
4) Buttering up/Buddying up to players suspicious of her: cAPSLOCK, Me, Lynx. See post 146 for explanation.
Glaring hypocrisies/Inconsistencies:
1)
In post 136, fferyllt wrote:
IME, I tend to either pick up votes in the early phases of day 1 or go more or less unnoticed until there's more data to work with. I don't usually key in on specific posts for scum reads. It's more about body of work.
Then:
Tipping point? Out of nowhere in your 312, you post me on your suspects list. Previous to that, you were reading me town. Is it body of work when it suits you, but single post when it suits you?
2) Her Meta dive on me goes from, "Looks scummy" to "Now looks town" to "Oh, he's aware of it, so it's null."
Nothing changed on my end. I know how I play, I'm cognizant of my game. But you're opening the door here, or trying to paint a picture of something that isn't. This whole Meta thing is useless, as I stated previously:
In post 101, likeabauss wrote:Regarding your argument about my meta, and refuting it:
In post 73, likeabauss wrote:
I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.
I don't put much stock into meta reads (I know lots of people here do though.) I just prefer to focus the discussion/energy elsewhere. You can dig into old games of all the players all you want. I don't think it matters much, for the reason I posted above. A good player can/will adjust their meta or maintain it as they see fit.
I mean, really? Frequently in this game you do meta dives under the guise that "Meta helps" then later you say "If the player knows about their own meta it its null." And not a single one of your meta dives has yielded you a strong read, you stay non-committal. You're all over the map on this. We're playing mafia, of course an experienced player is aware of their meta. I even use that point in my argument against you in 211. Good players are hard to hang when they are mafia.
3) You say read lists are dangerous, then lo and behold! A READ LIST in Post 310.
End Logic, Insert Narrative
I have more, but it's really messy. I need to clean up my notes, but I just don't have a whole lot of time.
The bottom line here is: I'm town and I think Fferyllt is mafia. I strongly believe that the point of this game is for townies to hang mafia. So, I'm trying to hang my number one suspect. That's how I play.
But, I'll be damned if you're going to ignore everything I've posted and say, "Bauss is scummy because he wants to hang Fferyllt because she's experienced." Either read the things people post, in this game that requires reading/writing/thinking, or replace out. More than half of this post is things I've already shared... But I add on a "tactical" consideration that is completely consistent with my position, the current wagons, deadlines, and people freak out.
I can post answers to other questions later tonight, and probably tomorrow as well. There's a few things I'd like to respond to that Trollie/cAPS/etc mentioned.
For now, if you read nothing else, read this:
I'm fighting to avoid hanging somebody I think is town, and pushing to hang somebody I think is scum.
Fferyllt is okay with hanging somebody she thinks is town, and isn't pushing to hang anybody.
am I not allowed to do that?
The fact she did not address the direct question of whether or not I am allowed to get (and discuss) a read from it makes me even more suspicious.
