Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Grimgroove]

I haven't been tunneled this aggressively in quite a while. bauss, your case is basically cobwebs from my perspective. There is literally nothing to refute when your argument is essentially that stuff I do is by definition scummy because I'm scum. Being effective is the best demonstration of alignment that I know how to do and that's what I'm focusing on.

Is this all you got from my posts against you? You're belittling my case against you as, "You're scum and you're doing scummy stuff." Really?

What is your definition of being effective? Ask questions about general concepts of game play? That's like an icebreaker game at a Mafiaholics Anonymous meeting. "Hi, I'm Fferyllt and I like town blocs. It's been 37 seconds since my last mafia post."

Like I said earlier, I know my alignment and I know what motivates my posts. It's a combination of my win condition, my personal goals in mafia, and my role as IC.

You finding scummyness in my posting behavior may be partially my fault, especially initially, but I am what I am and I believe that my motivations are visible in my post.

If you would program a robot to play mafiagames, this is the kind of stuff it would say.
A generic, generally applicable defense with no content. You can copy/paste this into any game and it would look relevant because of the little content it actually reperesents.

[Grimgroove]

Why do you have jason leaning town? I've thought that aside from his all-but-tunneling cAPSLOCK, he's contributed little in the way of scumhunitng/reads and prior to Thursday or Friday he'd been a lurksack.

His rage at being called out in less than 24 hours seemed slightly town motivated. Plus I don't think I've actually seen him get angry as scum in past history - that's not much to go on, and I think I'm going to have to actually watch him as last time we met I tunnelled him incessantly.

I'm still not liking his cAPS vote, but not bad enough that it would ruin an otherwise fine townread.

The fact is this, you having to wait for someone else to vote, to vote me, is scummy and opportunistic as fuck.

No one else has voted you?

There is a point of opportunism when the person he quoted before voting actually has a town read on you, but I can see how he didn't realise that at the time since I never mentioned that until afterwards.

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

This comes off pretty damn hedgy Cheery Dog.

And no response. I think your experiential meta on me is pretty mixed. I left this comment alone while the vengeball game was in progress, but since it is ended, I'm coming back to it. In our first game, Donner Party, you were convinced enough of my scumminess after a day 1 where I wound up with about 2 town reads, 2 scum reads and a pile of null reads that you targeted me for your vig kill.

My alignment in that game is a matter of record now.

In the vengeball game you modded, I was much more aggressive, but given how quickly the first lynch happened (with very little input from me and my hydra partner unfortunately) I had to get aggressive or town would be in a no-win situation after the next lynch.

Both styles of play are well within the space where my town game lives.

What do you think of jason's continued low level of engagement in this game since he was out of that game?

It worries me. So does your reaction to it.

Note thow whenever they interact to and about each other, they include some "third person" to really focus on, by ways of pre-emptively explaining why they didn't stick to focussing on each other. Cheery Dog did it earlier by mentioning likeabauss as his suspect, Fferyllt is doing something smilar now. In the first instance she finds JasonWazza shady. It's only in the second instands she finds Cheery Dog somewhat off, because of his reaction to Jason' behavior.

It's amazing how this all fits so nicely. I can't be imagining this, right?

[Grimgroove]

227 is delicious. No wonder Sikon had to die.

[Grimgroove]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

and that the last game I played with him I tunnelled on him with some of the stuff he has done here. I still find it scummy, but from the previous game I disregarded it and I'm just overly confused.

I'd expect more from him than infrequent posts consisting of nothing but tunnelling a newbie player to the exclusion of everything else going on in the game.

Mock discussion closed with a statement on the third party.

[Grimgroove]

♥ 234.
Reply 239 to that merely addresses the semantics. Pffrt.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery Dog

Prior to his replacing in,

I had put my vote on his predecessor, iamkingdavid.

My iso analysis of iamkingdavid is here: 142. I did a partial reset on the slot with Cheery's arrival.

Yes, be sure to remind us of that. You're obviously not scum with him.

Cheery's catch-up post 183 is pretty long for such a short game thread. He commented it may be his longest catch up post ever, which given the thread length strikes an odd note. He was also pretty indirect about most of his reads. I pointed this out, and he clarified his reads in post 195.

A description of some physical traits of his opening post and stressing the criticism you had towards him during your interactions with him. Sof ar this isn't much of a read on Cheery Dog, it's just reminding us of your actions towards his slot.

The central part of Cheery Dog's catch-up post, namely his "case" on likeabauss and his vote, is not touched upon. When they talk it's never about the essence of things, it's always about stuff they can easily disagree on without having to bus each other too hard.

In 203 he says that he doesn't like jasonwazza's caps vote. his read of caps is null-ish.

Nice piece of information. Analysis?

216, 223 he engags with bauss, who he is voting.

Other than interaction with bauss and with me (which I initiated and which I keep going) his one post to another player was to answer capslock's question about vote counts.

His involvement in the thread is better than that of his predecessor, which is not saying much.

Moot points to close the read, and again a reminder of her interactions with him.

I'm still leaning scum on this slot.

Still didn't fully catych-up yet, but I don't think this leaning will ever amount to any serious pressure unless general consensus moves that way.

[Grimgroove]

i didnt mean u were distancing from anyone, it was the "what do i know im a newb" comment

best scum hunting comes from the first few pages

Yes, I had noticed that as well.
TheTrollie does read the game. He just keeps things frustratingly short and concise, but I think he's town in this game.
His main problem is that he's a lazy player. He doesn't type, and he forms his reads based on 1 or 2 arguments and (from what I've seen) sticks to them until some other argument on somebody else catches his eye. I don't think I've ever seen him change reads,h e just changes focus on other people sometimes.

[Grimgroove]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

This post mitigates a lot of my concerns about you.

How?
In that read on him you provided you hardly voiced any concrete concerns (as I mentioned earlier), but please tell me how this relates to 249.

[Grimgroove]

267 and 268 are very unfortunate.
272 is fferyllt's way of being happy about this. The motherly tone, the understanding, AAAAH.

Really don't understand what got into sikon there, but fferyllt definitely made the most of that. Wow.

[Grimgroove]

[pos]273[/post] is eerily similar to what fferyllt had to say about it.

THESE TWO ARE SCUM!

Everything up til page 11 confirms it.

[Grimgroove]

Just for fun:

@Cheery Dog: what IS your read on fferyllt?Why did you not question her scumread on you? Why did you not question the mitigations of her "arguments" against you?

[Grimgroove]

I mean, when look at fferyllt's reads, just look at the difference in style and focus between her cases on other people, and the one on Cheery Dog.

In the former, she discusses what they do, what makes them scummy-townie, etc.

In the latter, she insists on specifying her own interactions with Cheery Dog.

This is so obvious.

[Grimgroove]

Innyminnyminymoh:

VOTE: Cheery Dog

He hasn't received enough scrutiny yet.

[Grimgroove]

Jason's way of getting back into the game on page 12 gives me townvibes.
Also Lynx strongly confirms the townread I already had on her in that page.

[Grimgroove]

jason, to me sikon comes off painfully newbtown.

How visciously unfair.
Sikon's posts and reasonings were anything but newbisch. They were very well thought-out, elegant, well-elaborated and, as far as I can see, accurate.

What on earth made him newbtown to you? And even painfully so?

You're just furthering what you did in 272. Further confirming his already damaged self-esteem.

Even if you're not scum this post was wrong. This is not a thing you should be saying as an IC.

I'm going to move my vote to you if only because of that. Cheery Dog will have to be next.

VOTE: fferyllt

[Grimgroove]

fferyllt was clearly intent on undermining an objectively good townplayer's arguments, making him lose his self-confidence and making him less of a threat. At the same time she was buddying to him by calling him town. How patronizing. How evil. how scummish.

Lynch this now. Immediately.

[Grimgroove]

Really need a break, reached page 13 now.
Really curious how this lynch on likeabauss came to be though, so I'llb e back later today.

[JasonWazza]

That shit is sheep worthy.

VOTE: fferyllt

Also that slot is town as fuck now.

cAPSLOCK i apologize if you are still reading this thread.

[fferyllt]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

This post mitigates a lot of my concerns about you.

How?
In that read on him you provided you hardly voiced any concrete concerns (as I mentioned earlier), but please tell me how this relates to 249.

Oh for cryin out loud your catch up posts.

Because his earlier read of sikon was inexplicable to me if he's town. It boggles my mind when experienced players misread newbs who are so clearly town.

I am feeling kinda similarly about jason at the moment.

My best guess of the scum team is 2 of cheery, jason and Lynx.

[Grimgroove]

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

*bzzt*

YOU NEVER EVER HANG BASED ON EXPERIENCE

UNVOTE: sikon327
VOTE: Likeabauss

If you hang someone based on "experience level" instead of based on "scumminess" then your basically gambling on RNG.

Experienced players are better to have alive, even when they are scum.

This is basically a "lynch the IC because they are better scum" argument, and that argument is based on odds, not on personal scumminess.

Very impulsive, but not scummy I think.
likeabauss' argument was not verystrong in this instance if you read it on its own. Jason made the mistake of doing that,b ut his reaction seems genuine. He voted on an impulse.

Cheery/IamKingDavid have been anything but vocal scumhunters, bauss. It's why they are currently in my list. Cheery can change that by getting into this game and doing shit.

Strongly disagree. Cheery replaced in and started slinging shit right away. He's got more genuine insights in 14 posts than half of the players in the game.

Yes, good insights, though maybe a little shallow.

The one thing he did that impressed me, though, was townreading sikon for the post she made out of frustration.

But no effort to move things along, refine his reads, etc.

Like I said,

he can change my impression by getting into the game

.

Again, some more textbook bussing. That bolded sentence leaves the door wide open to an adjusted read back to town whenever bussing becomes too risky.
"Getting into the game", really, that sounds like an insurmountable hurdle for poor scumread Cheery Dog.


Also note this came after the post where she claimed to have had her concerns "mitigated". I guess she decided to bus some more here without any additional arguments for doing so ever since this mitigation.

So wiffywoffy.

[Grimgroove]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

This post mitigates a lot of my concerns about you.

How?
In that read on him you provided you hardly voiced any concrete concerns (as I mentioned earlier), but please tell me how this relates to 249.

Oh for cryin out loud your catch up posts.

Because his earlier read of sikon was inexplicable to me if he's town. It boggles my mind when experienced players misread newbs who are so clearly town.

I am feeling kinda similarly about jason at the moment.

My best guess of the scum team is 2 of cheery, jason and Lynx.

There was no mention of his read on sikon anywhere when giving comments about Cheery Dog in 249. Why would you not include something that afterwards sounds pretty crucial to you?

[Grimgroove]

Sikon, roll with me on Fferyllt. I'm pretty sure Kue is town. Lynx, you too.

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

Experience is nothing with anything - If the experience are on the completely wrong trail - then they're just as likely to live as anyone else.

Unless scum have the noobs already on their tails, predicting the kills to be the most experienced is just an IC N1 syndom of scum not knowing what else to do. (or the threat that they

may

be good scumhunters). They (in this case, likely you) get rid off towniest - and experience doesn't have any say in that, except less mistakes may have been made.

Cheery, same thing... Doesn't look like enough support to hang me today. I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.

I've made a case? (with apparent genuine insights?)

Why isn't a wagon on you able to take off then?

The drama here is that likeabauss seems to owe his lynch to himself a bit.
Cheery Dog DID NOT have a case. The only thing he ever said about likeabauss was that he didn't like the bartering-strategy likeabauss was trying out. That is it. His whole case. Cheery Dog is simply surfing his towncred here, all because he made a big catch-up post.
Fo' shame!

[Grimgroove]

Thanks for the deadline extension NS/Rach <3

VOTE: likeabauss

Crucial vote is crucial. Deadline was getting nearer. The dynamics of the likeabauss lynch are a bit as I expected them to be so far, with Cheery Dog and fferyllt being the main boosters behind it.

[Grimgroove]

Post 313 was the tipping point.

Yes, whenever you lack a case, the best thing to do is just to refer to a "tipping point".
That post 313 wasn't likeabauss' best post, I'll grant you that, but it was far from scummy and even if it was, it was far from nullifying all the good shit he's been saying and trying to do.
Terrible vote and terrible, lazy reasoning.

[Grimgroove]

Gah. Likeabauss, why. 313 sounds like you've run out of reasons to say ff is actually scum and are appealing to chance. The argument seems dubious anyway. Regardless of what qualms I have about ff, she's at least contributed some good information. If she turns out to be town, we'll have sacrificed an experienced player capable of valuable insight for the sake of a player who, regardless of alignment, seems to be incapable of forming a case without a blatant logical flaw in it. That doesn't seem like good tactics to me.

I also notice your somewhat out-of-place attempt to butter up Cheery Dog (the one person with a vote on you at that time) in 317 and 318 ("I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.").

UNVOTE: Kueshina
VOTE: likeabauss

If it's any consolation, I think that you've successfully derailed the wagon on Kueshina.

Congratulations!

This is a townie voting him. However equally wrong he is, you can clearly see the difference with Cheery Dog's and fferyllt's votes. There is nothing "implied", no "overwhelming" cases that are being referred to but never in detail, just what he thinks about everything and a vote.