Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Cheery Dog]

So let me get this straight, you were both on the likeabauss wagon but admit to there not being a case?

I had reasons for my vote, but not what I would call a case.

[Grimgroove]

Who is "both"?

You and Cheery Dog.

[fferyllt]

Who is "both"?

You and Cheery Dog.

I repeatedly stated my reasons for suspecting him at various points of day 1. My post 354 pulled most of it together after he (erroneously) said something about my having town-read him all game.

His post 313 put him over the top, and is what led to my eventual vote.

[Grimgroove]

You clearly did not read my entire catch-up. I've been through 17 pages of posts and now I can't expect to be read myself?

[JasonWazza]

Grim baby, you don't need to convince the scum they are scum.

[fferyllt]

You clearly did not read my entire catch-up. I've been through 17 pages of posts and now I can't expect to be read myself?

No, I actually have read every post you made. Your characterizations of my posts doesn't change what I meant by them.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 2.01

fferyllt - 2 - Grimgroove, JasonWazza
TheTrollie - 1 - Lynx_Shine

Not Voting: Kueshina, TheTrollie, Cheery Dog, fferyllt


With 7 it takes 4 to lynch


Deadline is in (expired on 2013-07-29 19:50:21)

[fferyllt]

Grim baby, you don't need to convince the scum they are scum.

VOTE: jasonwazza

Because you are not doing shit in this game.

[Grimgroove]

Please comment on this, fferyllt, it's the post where I voted you so that should tell you it includes crucial information. A so-called tipping point perhaps. Why did you not bother to reply to it?

jason, to me sikon comes off painfully newbtown.

How visciously unfair.
Sikon's posts and reasonings were anything but newbisch. They were very well thought-out, elegant, well-elaborated and, as far as I can see, accurate.

What on earth made him newbtown to you? And even painfully so?

You're just furthering what you did in 272. Further confirming his already damaged self-esteem.

Even if you're not scum this post was wrong. This is not a thing you should be saying as an IC.

I'm going to move my vote to you if only because of that. Cheery Dog will have to be next.

VOTE: fferyllt

[fferyllt]

Please comment on this, fferyllt, it's the post where I voted you so that should tell you it includes crucial information. A so-called tipping point perhaps. Why did you not bother to reply to it?

jason, to me sikon comes off painfully newbtown.

How visciously unfair.
Sikon's posts and reasonings were anything but newbisch. They were very well thought-out, elegant, well-elaborated and, as far as I can see, accurate.

What on earth made him newbtown to you? And even painfully so?

You're just furthering what you did in 272. Further confirming his already damaged self-esteem.

Even if you're not scum this post was wrong. This is not a thing you should be saying as an IC.

I'm going to move my vote to you if only because of that. Cheery Dog will have to be next.

VOTE: fferyllt

Sikon was a self-declared newb, though IMO he absolutely was playing a strong game. I don't mean "painfully" as in doing terrible stuff. I mean painfully as in so earnestly and obviously both newb and town.

[TheTrollie]

did sikon crumb his PR?

[fferyllt]

This might have been a breadcrumb.

...Hm. I... didn't even realize there was a gap in likeabauss' meta. Frankly, I'm embarrassed. Guess that's a null point.

I decided to take a look through everyone's ISOs to reevaluate my case on likeabauss. His early play was not as scummy as I made it out to be. But I still find some things he has stated, which I now find to be distinctly strange, aside from his unorthodox scumhunting tactics:

"Keeping myself out of it" - I don't mind "some trouble", because sometimes we apply heat to players to find out if they break down and the facade becomes known. Please note though... in this game, town and scum alike are avoiding "real trouble" (being hung or NK'd.) So your suggestion that avoiding trouble is a reason to vote for me is not logical... every player in this game (town and scum) is trying to avoid being killed.

In this post, bauss states that scum and town alike are both trying to avoid "real trouble," and extols the importance of self-preservation. The problem I have with this is that self preservation is indeed more important to mafia players than to town players. Even a town lynch (though unfortunate) can provide useful information on the possible identities of scum if the voting patterns and attitudes of the other players with regards to the lynch, and if that information leads to a town victory, then the dead player still wins with the town. The mafia, on the other hand, lose substantially from having one of their precious few members killed, and since they are already in a superior position in terms of information, gain nothing that isn't gained via their own guile. A townie that prioritizes his own survival too greatly, if he is not a PR or something,

may

cripple the town.

Some may argue this is a weak point on its own -- certainly being lynched is no fun. But it's still worth noting.

Furthermore: though I accept my point about his meta to be null, I find it strange that, even though it was easily rebutted by fferyllt and JasonWazza by the simple observation that I didn't even have access to any of his actually relevant meta, likeabauss completely failed to make this argument.

sikon - I'm glad you're invested in this game, active players make it more fun for all of us. Did you notice in both of those games here on mafiascum, that I found scum on Day 1 and successfully lynched them? (this is why I find Morthas's comment so confusing... when he suggests that stirring things up does not help to find scum.) It was nothing more than subtle nuance and cues that I observed and explored in both cases. I can assure you that my methods of interrogation and observation can be very productive. In those two games, I picked up on something very early and was correct. My interrogation yielded responses that didn't satisfy my suspicions, and we hung bad guys.

(...)

Also, do you feel threatened (are you scum?) Is that why you voted for me and then went to research my prior games? Or is that your typical level of involvement in mafia? I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.

He completely ignores the point that I was making about his meta, which is that his playstyle in this game is completely different from the earlier games I observed (where he found scum on day 1). He chooses to point out his skill in finding scum in those previous games (where he used a more aggressive, vote-centric playstyle than this one), and to cast suspicion on me for choosing to peruse his meta, EVEN THOUGH it would have been a much more effective defense to point out that the games in his meta were 3 years old and that most of his play history was on another site!

If likeabauss had pointed out what fferyllt and JasonWazza would proceed to point out later,

it would have shut me down in my tracks!

Instead, he made the strange decision to simply talk past my argument, and accuse me of being scum. I would like to know why he chose to do that.

I realize that was an unwieldy wall of text, so I will explain my points in tl;dr-mode, for those who are lost:
1. likeabauss claims that both town and scum have self-preservation as a high priority, even though it is actually a much, much higher priority for scum than it is for town.
2. likeabauss fails to point out an important error in one of my accusations, even though it would have shut me down more effectively than simply casting a shadow on my motivations.

And in any case, before I am willing to turn my attention elsewhere, I want to hear him respond to the questions I asked him in my previous post:

Why, exactly, do you "lack conviction?" Why is it that you believe that you don't have enough evidence to vote me? Statements like "it contradicts your goal of lynching a townie," "do you not like logical play," "do you feel threatened," "are you scum" do not sound like the rhetoric of someone who "isn't sure." What is it that you're afraid will happen if you vote me "prematurely"?

Why use rhetoric that centers around the idea that I am scum trying to lynch a townie if you aren't actually convinced that I'm scum?

I would prefer to hear the answers to both of these questions. And I want to hear them from him. His responses will determine how I proceed from here. Hopefully, his response will clear up this whole mess.

[Grimgroove]

Going to have to ask for the Obvious here but: Did you just find that after thetrollie asked for it, or had you noticed it earlier?

[fferyllt]

Going to have to ask for the Obvious here but: Did you just find that after thetrollie asked for it, or had you noticed it earlier?

I didn't notice it earlier. When he asked, I ISO'd and searched for "track".

[Grimgroove]

Is every other player dead?

[JasonWazza]

Grim baby, you don't need to convince the scum they are scum.

VOTE: jasonwazza

Because you are not doing shit in this game.

Does that make me scum now?

Bad vote is bad.

[fferyllt]

Grim baby, you don't need to convince the scum they are scum.

VOTE: jasonwazza

Because you are not doing shit in this game.

Does that make me scum now?

Bad vote is bad.

This is a pretty good example of you not doing shit. Your earliest posts in this thread were good content.

[Grimgroove]

To be honest, I find both your responses and the ones of Cheery Dog rather "meek" when it comes to my catch-up. I was expecting some kind of flaming, or some exposé on how I was wrong about everything, or how I was tunneling, starting off with one conversation and then going into the tunnel head-first.

I have seen none of that, just some selection of some of the things I said, and a halfhearted refutation of what was selected.

So I really think I'm on to something here, even moreso than before.

Why is this game so dead? Is there some kind of holiday going on?

[fferyllt]

To be honest, I find both your responses and the ones of Cheery Dog rather "meek" when it comes to my catch-up. I was expecting some kind of flaming, or some exposé on how I was wrong about everything, or how I was tunneling, starting off with one conversation and then going into the tunnel head-first.

I have seen none of that, just some selection of some of the things I said, and a halfhearted refutation of what was selected.

So I really think I'm on to something here, even moreso than before.

Why is this game so dead? Is there some kind of holiday going on?

I generally don't flame. You've imputed a lot of motivations to my posts, things like trying to tear down sikon's confidence, that couldn't have been further from my mind. Arguing that kind of stuff comes down to "nu uh", "uh huh", though, and isn't going to be very productive in finding scum. Bad enough that there's no real scumhunting happening outside of your focus on me (and to a lesser extent Cheery).

What you are seeing in my behaviors today are a calculation of town's chances of winning if there is a second mislynch - another one that isn't me. If there is going to be a second mislynch I prefer that it be me. I am almost certain that you aren't scum. I believe Trollie is town. Kue is leaning town. That leaves Cheery, Lynx and jasowazza. If I can eliminate one of them from the collective scumpile today, then even if I am mislynched today, town still has a good chance at winning.

Ruling one of them out means interaction. So, let's see who's willing to interact.

[JasonWazza]

Wanna know what i see fferyllt?

Scum Fferyllt, cutting down Town Grim's weakest points and then attempting to shift the attention.

Her arguments for me scum right now are pathetic.

Pretty sure she earlier refered to me as a possible town read (when i got back into the game) Now that i suspect her after Grim's Posts (which are very convincing) and blatantly sheep him, she instantly votes me based on "no content you MUST BE SCUM"

Me not doing shit in this game =/= Me being scum in this game.

Fferyllt, when you come up with a better argument, i will address it.

[fferyllt]

Wanna know what i see fferyllt?

Scum Fferyllt, cutting down Town Grim's weakest points and then attempting to shift the attention.

Her arguments for me scum right now are pathetic.

Pretty sure she earlier refered to me as a possible town read (when i got back into the game) Now that i suspect her after Grim's Posts (which are very convincing) and blatantly sheep him, she instantly votes me based on "no content you MUST BE SCUM"

Me not doing shit in this game =/= Me being scum in this game.

Fferyllt, when you come up with a better argument, i will address it.

If you *are* town, then start towning. That is completely separate from where your vote is. Even if you are town and are certain I am scum, not looking at other players is a waste of a game day. And that is why you look scummy to me. Aside from your capslock focus on day 1, you did very little but sheep other players.

[JasonWazza]

Grim's Town
Lynx is Probably town.
Kues is probably town.
Trollie, is trollie, i'm unsure about him but it's not as if he will do much as is evidated by him just asking about the bread crumb (which by the way you found WAY to easily.)
Cherry is probably your partner.

Your saying i'm scum for not looking at other players, but your yet to realize, i look at other people, i just focus on the one i'm looking at right now.

[fferyllt]

Grim's Town
Lynx is Probably town.
Kues is probably town.
Trollie, is trollie, i'm unsure about him but it's not as if he will do much as is evidated by him just asking about the bread crumb (which by the way you found WAY to easily.)
Cherry is probably your partner.

Your saying i'm scum for not looking at other players, but your yet to realize, i look at other people, i just focus on the one i'm looking at right now.

Why do you have Lynx as probably town?

Cheery isn't my partner, but I am leaning pretty strongly scum.

Found way too easily? dude. ISO, find on page "track". If I hadn't found a hit, then I would have looked for "follow" and other synonyms. Anybody can do that, once they know what they are looking for.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery isn't my partner, but I am leaning pretty strongly scum.

Then why aren't you voting him?
Looking at your reasons for voting JasonWazza, it doesn't look like you have a strong scumlean on him. Simply "not doing much" at least doesn't look like a signficant reason to me.

[JasonWazza]

That's because she is scum with him Grim.