Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Wisdom]

Now he is. Before that, it was always most likely to be enomis. Read the winds.

Except when you did it Safety was already the top wagon.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I know you're going to say "If he was scum he would go for the easy mislynch on someone in the pool." But there are two sides to every story. He can also lynch almost anyone in the pool by not having scumreads on anyone.

So do you agree that Amrun looks suspicious for wanting to townread him based on that?

And please link to that post in that completed game.

[Elyse]

Oh yeah Amrun I forgot to mention her.

She's been quite contradicting and scummy the past few pages. I feel her arguments are very unnecessary and she always writes off her accuser with something like "that's retarded" or "can you speak english?". The only quip I have, which is similar to SC and the QT thing, is that she thought there were three scum initially. Yes, I know she's experienced enough to have planted it, but she's been consistently derpy about the setup so I'm having a hard time letting that go.

And yeah I'll link you to that post hold on.

[Wisdom]

I agree with AP here. I don't see how enomis' wall is genuine or anything. He didn't even call anyone scum! Yes, I know you're going to say "If he was scum he would go for the easy mislynch on someone in the pool." But there are two sides to every story. He can also lynch almost anyone in the pool by not having scumreads on anyone.

Also this makes me feel better about you, at least in regard to your echoing that I accused you of earlier. You think you're disagreeing with me here, but essentially you're saying the same thing as I said in 1418. This makes me believe that your "echoing" is indeed done subconsciously, as I thought earlier.

[Elyse]

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Belisarius

Null. Not a lot to analyse but said he was going to catch up later

[#144]

.

Mutleyddmc

Null leaning scum. Hasn’t contributed anything relevant yet and is not acting in town’s interest.

Smudger

Null. Seems to have a town read on Siv

[#83]

or maybe I’m misinterpreting it but then seems to backtrack

[#151]

.

Your Troubles Will Cease

Null leaning scum. The scum bit is purely based on gut, which I don’t like but can’t ignore at this stage and based on

[#30]

&

[#44]

which seriously reeks.

Siveure DtTrikyp

Leaning town. Credits go to Siv for getting us out of the RVS that early and I don’t believe for a second that Siv would risk to start theorizing about the draft as scum while he has pucked such a high (and unique) number. Could be WIFOM but I’m not really buying that.

pieceofpecanpie

Leaning town. Clear cut case on Stryker

[#84]

and one of the most interesting posts of the game regarding draft theory and scumhunting

[#97]

.

Alabaska J

Leaning town. He is active and his posts makes sense. Especially

[#145]

which sounds townie.

Xdaamno

Null. Needs to post more.

TMTOLBTWNTOF

Null. I don’t really get TMT’s reads but it seems they are meta related so I have no opinion on that. Seems to insist he think Sakura is town though.

Crimml

Null. Only one post in which she said she would catch up.

Cade

Null leaning scum. Only one post

[#64]

which is a very opportunistic vote on Stryker. While I agree that Stryker looks scummy, Cade hasn’t provided anything else himself.

Stryker

Null leaning scum. Showing no initiative at all. Firmly disagrees with Siv about the Draft WIFOM but doesn’t want to debate further

[#31]

.

Sakura Hana

Null. Hasn’t contributed much either. Seems she is playing like Mutley without the stubbornness and anti townbehaviour.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

UNVOTE: Your Troubles Will Cease
VOTE: Mutleyddmc

I don't like Muttle's behaviour and I much prefer voting for him than to leave my RVS vote on YTWC though I have a slight scum read on him too, but based on gut as you have read above.

I think I just hit the jackpot, sorry if this seems messy but notice this:

Playerlist:

Belisarius
Mutleyddmc
Smudger
Your Troubles Will Cease

Sakura Hana

Siveure DtTrikyp
pieceofpecanpie
Alabaska J
*Xdaamno Moon
TMTOLBTWNTOF
Elyse Crimml
Deckard
*Cade
Yesterday Stryker

And Deckards reads list order in Post 159:

Belisarius
Mutleyddmc
Smudger
Your Troubles Will Cease
Siveure DtTrikyp
pieceofpecanpie
Alabaska J
Xdaamno
TMTOLBTWNTOF
Crimml
Cade
Stryker

Sakura Hana

---

He's left his scum partner until last to state a read on while doing everyone else in the OP's order.

The first post is his reads list and the second post is where he was called out on it.

Deckard was scum. Sakura ended up being town. He forgot her and just added her on at the end. He didn't stick her in between.

Is that the only reason enomis seemed genuine, Wisdom? Because it looked like you were thinking his post wasn't genuine.

P-edit:

[Wisdom]

but she's been consistently derpy about the setup so I'm having a hard time letting that go.

Where else did she show ignorance of the setup?

[Wisdom]

The difference in that post, Elyse, is that Deckard was giving reads based on playerlist order. He just added his scumbuddy last, without saying anything like "Oh I forgot Sakura, my read on her is X". enomis didn't just add him last, he stated that he forgot him and proceeded to give a read. Why do that as town? He would just go back in his list and add him (even last in the list, or maybe somewhere in the middle), but he would not mention that he forgot him. This shows a town mindset who posts exactly what he thinks.

[Wisdom]

Correction: not his scumbuddy, but that doesn't change my point.

[Elyse]

Nvm I thought she was Venmar for some reason. He wanted to challenge his partner and didn't know it was nightless.

So yes, Amrun's moment of derp was short-lived, but significant. I would much rather prefer lynching SafetyDance today.

No, Sakura wasn't his scumbuddy. Yeah, he didn't say "I forgot Sakura" but I don't think saying "I forgot x" makes someone town. At all. Alignment wouldn't dictate whether or not I would mention if I forgot someone. And how could someone forget about AP in a game like this? And remember SafetyDance? It seems too weird.

But as I said, I'd rather lynch Safety Dance today.

[Wisdom]

No, Sakura wasn't his scumbuddy. Yeah, he didn't say "I forgot Sakura" but I don't think saying "I forgot x" makes someone town. At all. Alignment wouldn't dictate whether or not I would mention if I forgot someone. And how could someone forget about AP in a game like this? And remember SafetyDance? It seems too weird.

The fact he forgot about AP is not alignment-indicative. Who would forget AP in this game applies to scum too.
But I do believe that his wording shows that he just posted what he had in his mind. "Who did I forget? Oh yeah, AP." No. Scum would realize they forgot AP, and they would go and add them in the list. Maybe even last in the list, like Deckard did. But wouldn't do it like enomis did.

Also to answer your other question, I think that everything he has said about the QT is genuine. That's the main reason I changed my mind. It doesn't look like both he and Amrun are scum, and among them Amrun looks far more scummy, especially with that last post that essentially tells him to vote Safety.

I don't understand why you want Safety over Amrun. Amrun has been scummy, Safety has been lurking. Amrun has shown signs of wanting Safety lynched (such as what I mentioned about her post in the QT), and if anyone looks like lynchbait at the moment, that's Safety too. Is her "there are 3 scum" enough to cancel all her scuminess? Especially when you acknowledge that she could have planted it?

[Wisdom]

And since we're on the Safety topic, I asked you yesterday to tell me what's been happening in your QT, wanna do it?

[Grimgroove]

Oh yeah Amrun I forgot to mention her.

She's been quite contradicting and scummy the past few pages. I feel her arguments are very unnecessary and she always writes off her accuser with something like "that's retarded" or "can you speak english?".

The only quip I have, which is similar to SC and the QT thing, is that she thought there were three scum initially. Yes, I know she's experienced enough to have planted it, but she's been consistently derpy about the setup so I'm having a hard time letting that go.

And yeah I'll link you to that post hold on.

I'm impressed you remember that. I had completely forgotten about this "townslip".
Hmm.
Hmmmmm.

[Wisdom]

Me too, tbh. But I don't think that means anything.

[Grimgroove]

Is it advisable to read something into Elyse remembering it?
If Amrun flips scum, it could have been a conscious scum strategy, and Elyse could be scum for actually remembering it for that reason.

Well, just posting my train of thought here, I guess I shouldn't blame anyone for actually remembering what happens inhere, but somehow the contradt between Elyse's apparent involvement and still remembering this, strikes me as odd.

Hmm.

[Wisdom]

There are, at most, three scum in this game. If we require a majority of town to elect one side of TWO different pairs and then put them against each other, sure, it's possible for a short while for scum to hide. It is, however, unlikely, and on day 1 we are likely to have 1 scum in the lynch pool.

Even if we fail in our lynch, which is fairly likely for the average day 1, our failing is not decreased by taking control of the lynch pool.

The plan is, in my opinion, better because the scum can't simply kamikaze someone. Even if they gang up, they must convince the town.

Whereas with no formal plan in place, we open ourselves up to a couple of bad options:

-Scum challenging a pair with a predictable outcome of a town lynch, only one of which is likely
-Town pair challenging a pet scum read no one agrees with
-Any pair challenging an agreed upon scum read that the town realizes (too late) must be town, and lynches suboptimally due to lack of choices.
-Scum can simply choose never to nominate, and only by getting lucky can town get scum into the lynch pool

With my plan, town must at least be convinced by scum to nominate two pairs of people. Scum can make no action without town approval.

If scum are able to successfully hoodwink the town to that extent, the plan certainly doesn't HELP them do this in any way I can see.

If you have an alternate plan, or improvements to this one, I'm sure everyone wants to hear it.

Elyse tell me something.
How likely is it for someone who makes such a detailed plan like this, factoring all the bad stuff that happens to town if they don't follow it and everything, to BE UNAWARE of the number of scum?

[Grimgroove]

Is it advisable to read something into Elyse remembering it?
If Amrun flips scum, it could have been a conscious scum strategy, and Elyse could be scum for actually remembering it for that reason.

Well, just posting my train of thought here, I guess I shouldn't blame anyone for actually remembering what happens inhere, but somehow the contradt between Elyse's apparent involvement and still remembering this, strikes me as odd.

Hmm.

You can actually ignore this argument and forget I even made it. Even if this is the case, there's no way to prove it. Nor to refute it.

See, this is exactly why I should post less.

[Wisdom]

There are, at most, three scum in this game

Yeah, I stopped reading here.
You're trying to make plans, yet you don't know the number of scum?
It is KNOWN how many scum there are.

I guess this makes you town though, even though I wouldn't put it past you to fake that towntell.

My reaction back then was this^, because I thought "wow she's trying to play townleader and does not even realize how many scum there are. And thus I wrote her off as derptown who slipped.
It has been proven however that she's capable enough and far from derptown. Moreso by NS's statement that Amrun usually makes plans (which means that she analyzes the setups and everything).
So no, I don't believe anymore that a person like Amrun would miss the number of scum.

[Elyse]

Sorry I don't remember every damn thing you ask me.

Here's the gist of our QT conversation:

SD: Go Spinach Apes! I hear Fur Elise in my head when I see your name.
Elyse: Hey I think of Safety Dance when I hear your name.
SD: Did this start?
SD: 4 pages? I'll do this tomorrow.
Elyse: Yeah. It's annoying we don't know each other's alignments. I'm just going to assume you're town for now because if you're scum I'm not giving away any top secret information. I don't think Amrun is scum and I don't like how AP/Wisdom are taking control.
Elyse: I agree with Venmar but am scared of a Venmar/Amrun scumteam.
SD: *the post I already talked about* plus I hate super-active games.
Elyse: Yeah this game is annoying Grim posts like eighty walls at a time. I've never been in a neighborhood before. There are four scum and obviously we're both not scum. If I had to guess my scumteam would be AP/Grim/enomis/NS.
SD: Glad there's no hydras. I'm having trouble engaging with what's happened early on. I like Amrun's suggestion, Wisdom is being a dick, neither are alignment tells. I can't stand NS' style of play. It's been a factor in both games I've played with him and it's never helped town. Always happy to lynch him. ***Did not notice this after NS' flip*** could be bussing since he thinks NS is useless though
Elyse: I can see Majiffy scum doing what he did, but I don't like SC much so my vote is between them.
SD: Why the cold feet on NS? Especially post 732? Sorry for not being active but I'm trying.
Elyse: It bothered me that he would ask that. I don't see it coming from scum.

P-edit: She said she's been in like 100+ games and in a game this size it's always 3 scum. I remembered because I looked through her ISO recently.

[Wisdom]

And yes Grim, I don't think it means anything. Elyse was one of the people who instantly corrected her, so she's likely to remember it.

[Grimgroove]

@Elyse:

Why did you say "obviously we're both not scum" in the middle of that QT?

[Grimgroove]

Elyse: Yeah this game is annoying Grim posts like eighty walls at a time.

[Wisdom]

She said she's been in like 100+ games and in a game this size it's always 3 scum.

Does it matter? She obviously read the mechanics, read the rules, read everything in order to come up with her plan. How did she miss the number of scum?

[Wisdom]

About your QT convo; I find it interesting that Safety said absolutely nothing about his Majiffy scumread, which is the only scumread he has presented inthread. That does make him look scummy.

[Wisdom]

but am scared of a Venmar/Amrun scumteam.

Why did you think that? Do you still think it might be a possibility?

[Elyse]

No it was very early on. Venmar came right to Amrun's defense. It was never a major suspicion of mine, just something in the back of my head.

And Grim, we were talking about our alignments.

I still think Amrun could've made that mistake about scum number.