NY 165: A Large Normal (Game Over!)

[Rift Adrift]

I'd be totally willing to put everything else on hold to lynch ^.

It's short attention span theater up in this thread.

[Serene]

'd be totally willing to put everything else on hold to lynch ^.

I'd shoot my dog for an Ankamius lynch. But even shooting my dog couldn't make a dent in the legendary unlynchable Calcifer.

I don't have a dog but IF, IF!

[DOMO]

Hell, I saw both kills and told Bulba as soon as the thread opened up we MIGHT be in multiball.

So if I'm to assume this is honest, then you basically did exactly what I did, only in your hydra QT instead of the main thread. I did not say we're multiball. I said it looks like it. That was my thought process at the time of posting.

But I don't think it's honest. I think you know it's multiball, that's why you want me speedlynched when it becomes clear. I'd probably do the same if scum. Why speculate if it's multiball, when you can sit back and wait for someone else to?

[Serene]

I think you know it's multiball, that's why you want me speedlynched when it becomes clear.

BFenix is lining up

conditional

lynches, knowing the solution to the condition.

[BROseidon]

It's a good thing Serene doesn't have a dog, then.

[BROseidon]

Animal abuse=not okay >:C

[Baby Spice]

You disbelieve the mason claim?

Personally, I do not. Bulba and I have been going back and forth on this in our conversations.
...
-Fenix

Fenix doesn't think that Serene's mason claim is legitimate and thinks that he's scum.

Bingo!

Vote: BulbaFenix

This specifically looks like someone forgot who in the Bulba hydra was supposed to have what reads reguarding Serene.

[Serene]

It's a good thing Serene doesn't have a dog, then.

Animal abuse=not okay >:C

Yeah and lynching people isn't OK, it's horrifying and nightmarish for many whose ancestors were victims of prejudice, racism, and anti-semitism, and the mafia really does kill people all the time so we should cancel the game. All sociopaths should be in jail, but jail is inhumane only eat free-range chickens or better still be a vegetarian.

This was a completely useless public service announcement.

[Serene]

It's a good thing Serene doesn't have a dog, then.

my ex wife has the dog but at least i still have my cat

[DOMO]

my ex wife has the dog but at least i still have my cat

Wait, what the fuck? You get the shit animal while she gets the good one? I'd give up the kids, house and car before the dog. A cat is worth a piece of art, and not a very good piece at that. Unless it's a cat that plays chess. Does the cat play chess?

[Serene]

no i had the cat before we were married, so it was always mine anyway


one time she threatened to divorce me if i didnt get rid of it though


JOKE'S ON HER NOW ISN'T IT

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Fery talk to me about how meta factors into bulbafenix's case or quote it if you already did explain?

[Rift Adrift]

Orcinus, here are most of my posts about bulba (and Mac) from day 1. There is very little meta involved because the only completed game I have with bulba is a game where he was the SK. Syr knows him a little better.

My other head has a scum read on your slot, Bulba, and it's based on Mac's posting here in this thread compared to his town and scum meta. Mac plays more aggressively as town.

From what I've seen, he kinda warms up to a more aggressive level over the course of the day as he finds things to sink his teeth into, and doesn't necessarily start out of the blocks that way. For me his posting wasn't enough for a sure read. I went from town to leaning scum, though I'm sure Syr had a lot to do with my read changing.

That goonies game, where he replaced out, I was leaning scum prior to his (and my) being replaced.

You/Fenix haven't dug out of the Mac scum read in this game.

P-edit: Rift, what did you think about Mac's TMT case? I thought it was actually pretty good, and I'm actually sorry that he wasn't able to keep on pushing it. Also, you had him as a town read earlier in the game. I can understand the read changing due to him not posting, but why was your slot convinced Mac was town near the beginning of the day?

Like I said, I have this idea that there's a ramp-up to his town game. The TMT case was the main reason I agreed with Nacho when he suggested Mac was town iirc.

Syr disagrees, and I think he has more games with Mac than I do. I have two completed games with Mac (including the one where we both replaced out), and both are scum games. I have a town-Mac model, but it hasn't been tested to completiion.

Bulba can join the town pile for now for 832. His reads seem genuine, like they come from reading the thread instead of just sheeping consensus.

Don't be too complacent about bulba. My first game with him. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27049 Night kill cardflips weren't revealed, so town didn't know when we'd hit our last possible day to pull out a win.

He won at endgame as SK. He was thought to be town by most players, including the mafia.

GREAT KARMIC VIBRATIONS

orcinus_theoriginal

How cute. Bulba starts calling us scum after the site deleted our post where i referred to him as scum.

VOTE: serene

bulba stevie are scum maybe with orc

Congratufuckinglations you noticed one of my jeads thought you were town four hundred posts ago

your hop onto a pointless bandwagon is either scummy as fuck or batshit bad town play

Are you three synching up frequently? at all?

I actually find the extreme pushes for individual reads RIGHT NOW NO EXCUSES to be kinda opportunistic. I'm mostly concerned about bulbafenrix doing this yesterday.

No.

i know our reads clash a lot in hydra

but this is getting ridiculous

talk to me about why you think bulba is scum

and nacho isn't

In brief, I initially read Mac as town and wound up changing my mind in part due to Mac and in part due to Syr's thoughts. Bulba's early posts pinged hard. Their push on serene looked even worse than yours did.

Much like my read on you, my read on Calcifer (which is mostly based on Nacho) is a shaky slight town.

Exactly what, might I ask, within Mac's post changed your mind?

This post I initially liked, mostly because I agreed with the reason for voting TMT, though I thought he was ignoring other, more scummy looking, stuff that was happening in the game around that time. I'll talk about why I changed my mind at the end.

stevie:

Scum suspect #2 is BROseidan for making a town read on page 2.

can you tell me how this is scummy and how this doesn't work in reverse?

Because in the beginning of the game a good town is supposed to be suspicious of everyone. It should take more than 2 pages of fluff/RVS for you to determine that someone is a townie.

Scumhunting, on the other hand, is always encouraged.

this is a terrible post. at the beginning of the game, good town can also get reads from early posts. the fact that you are trying to discourage this in such a way is pretty anti-town.

like Rift (??) said, scumhunting and townhunting work in unison together, and make for an easier life.

there was something else that caught my eye on a brief skin of the 8 pages:

Nulls:
Orc (not enough posts yet)
Everyone Else because it’s like page 6 and several people only have RVS posts.

Krab person (cabd?) - why did you feel the need to seperate orc for not having enough posts from everyone else who don't have enough posts? I found this kinda bizarre behaviour.

ProHawk is town, despite how stupid his idea was.
TiP, BROseidon, and Stevie are all scum.

I have Zdenek, BRO, Prohawk, TiP, and maybe Stevie as town.

Wait... so one of you has Stevie as scum and one of you as town? Could you please sign?

why did you pick out Stevie here and not BRO? both in differing piles from Calcifier. also this post does nothing. as have the rest of your other two posts, letters chap.

vote TMT

TMT and possibly stevie for scum at the moment.

This post clanged in a huge way. My reaction to DOMO's catch up post was a very strong "not liking this".

k I think I really like DOMO for town because that catchup felt genuine.

Back to the first post. I started thinking about his positions on players as a whole.

- Other scummy stuff ignored
- Posted in support of what was becoming a very credible wagon on a player I wasn't scumreading while voting someone who looks scummy but wasn't getting much attention.
- Strong town read from a post that was iffy at best.

The picture this paints has two main themes: setting up a trajectory for a vote change to the stevie wagon, and an odd combiniation of perceptiveness and glossing over. Scum sometimes do this sort of thing because they know alignments. Stuff that may strike a townie as off may not draw any attention from a scum player because they know the post is coming from a town player.

Bulbafenix

Ok! Haihai everyone! Fenix here. Bulba will be coming tomorrow and posting his catch up and reads list for everyone to view. For now though

Unvote
Vote StevieT92

^^ Bandwagon Ho!

Caught up and have snuck onto a computer. Disappointed with Fenix, as he was supposed to help me by getting me live reads while I read through the game. Anyway, here is the official reads list and catchup post:

Town

Rift Adrift

: 1 of 2 strong town reads from when I was initially skimming the thread before we replaced in. They are actively scumhunting, and all of their posts read genuine.

Calcifer

: 2nd of the strong town reads from initial skim. Same as Calcifer, only not as strong.

King Crabd

: All of their posts read as genuine. There is no attempt at fakery here.

Ankamius

: There is some genuine thought here. I was a little nervous about his mention of LYLO in #328, but I get the sense that he's the type of player to consider that as town.

DOMO

: Not as much of a gut read as the others. They appeal to the logic part of me, and they are actively scumhunting. Everything they do comes from town motivation. Therefore, they're town.

Metal Sonic

: Trust me, he's town. I wish he'd post more, though, without me having to tunnel him to death...

Baby Spice

: What little she's posted has consisted of actual scumhunting. I'd like to see more, but I'm willing to call her town for now.

BROseidon

: Everybody who thinks he's scum needs to have their heads examined. Calling out a stupid anti-town plan is not scummy. Self-voting is not scummy (contrary to popular opinion). Heck, in Voided's Nightless Mountainous game, there were 4 self votes (including myself). Guess what? They were all town. He's doing some genuine scumhunting here. He's town. Deal with it.

Null/Town

Zdenek

: I almost want to call him town. However, he's done a few things that I've never seen from him before when he was town in Voided's game. I want to observe him a little bit more first before I put him fully in the town pile.

TheIrishPope

: Fenix convinced me to put him more in the null section. Personally, I like him for town. I'm not sure I see the scum motivation in his posts. Regardless, he makes me laugh, so I'm not keen about lynching him anytime soon.

Null

Orcinus_theoriginal

: Not sure how to take this one. On the one hand, I like him for town, due to him actively scumhunting. On the other hand, I'm not agreeing with a lot of his reads, and he's been too eager lately to jump on some really fishy wagons. I think I'll need more time to sort this one out.

Serene

: Personally, I'd love to list this slot as town, not only because I liked the Newbie rage quit from their predecessor, but also because I like the idea of all the hydras being town together. However, I really do not like #646. Normally when I've seen town super secret hydras, they are not worried about being lynched should the heads become known, rather, they're worried about being NK'd. The fact that Serene said lynched suggests that they're not worried about the NK. I also do not like their push of Calcifer. The only reason they are null is because I see reasons why they could be town, and I originally wanted to put them as null/town. However, Fenix wanted to put them as scum. We compromised, hence the null.

The Goat

: Nothing much has been posted from this slot. The closest we get to anything alignment indicative is #461, which feels slightly town to me. Interested in what we get from his replacement.

TSO

: Honestly, I keep flip flopping on him. He'll post something I'll believe is scummy, such as some of his initial cases, or his attack of Metal Sonic, or his recent push for town cred. But then he'll post a bunch of things that are strongly town. I'll probably watch him and see what I think about him tomorrow.

Nero

: Eddie likes him for town. I have a bit of a scum lean on him. However, I'm not sure if this is due to actual scumminess or a difference in playstyle. He posts similarly to TIP, but he's not doing so to be funny. He doesn't explain any of his reads, he attacks players without basis, and I'm sure I've seen him arbitrarily sheeping at points (I need to check this one out later.). At best his play is anti-town. I'm just not sure if it's actually scummy.

?Null/Scum?

Shadi1337

: To be honest, I'm beginning to like him more, so he may move up before long. I just didn't like his flail earlier, as I didn't think that it felt like town flail. Fenix and I struggled real hard on his placement. Actually, screw it, he's plain null. Fenix, we can talk about it later.

Actual Null/Scum

StubbsKVM

: Fenix and I went back and forth on this one. Admittedly, it's a gut read. I don't think that a lot of his posts feel genuine. Definitely going to watch this slot as the day progresses.

Brian Hollywood

: Fenix fought for his placement closer to the scum pile. Brian hasn't posted anything game related. All of his posts have avoided what was actually happening at the time. I also don't buy his reaction to Zdenek's fake day kill, as that gambit is common enough that Brian's reaction could be faked (I've actually seen it at least twice before, and I'm relatively new to the site.).

Scum

TMTOLBTWNTOF

: I actually agree with our predecessor on this slot, although I get the feeling that Fenix is not convinced. TMT is active lurking. What he posts appears to be content at first glance, but it is actually saying nothing of importance.

Doc Holliday

: I don't like his blatant opportunism. I also feel that he and TIP are not on the same team, due to his #75 and TIP's response. If Doc is actually town, I'm actually going to take a second look at TIP.

StevieT92

: His reasons for voting and suspecting slots near the beginning of the day were bad, and I also didn't like how he said that no one should be townreading anybody so early in the game. It felt like he was trying to keep town from finding each other for as long as possible, and instead wanted them to focus on who he deigned as scum. His posts since then have not improved.

Dramonic

: His posts have contained absolutely no content. #734 feels more like knowledge than actual setup spec. He feels sure in his answer, where anybody speculating would use language that indicated that they were unsure or guessing.

ProHawk

: Post #10 was really bad, as has been repeatedly explained. However, I can understand why people are hesitant to use that as their only reasoning. His later posts, though, do not feel like town. They have a slimy quality to them, and it feels as if he's trying to manipulate people when he addresses them so that they say something that he can attack as scummy. He's scum and needs to be lynched as soon as possible. I'll be addressing some of his posts soon.

Going to address a few more recent posts before I go. Any questions?

-Bulba

^^ This came off to me as an amalgamation of the "feel of the thread". To the extent they went against what was emerging as consensus, it was to echo stuff that Calcifer and I were saying.

From this point on, the stuff that struck off notes to me were mostly the slapfights with serene-2 and Prohawk.

orcinus, I wonder how much your town read of bulbafenix is predicated on them picking fights with the same player you've fisticuffed with.

However, I kinda like the "yeah, so?" attitude toward their bandwagon. I don't think scum would just go on about their business in the face of votes piling up the way they did.

UNVOTE: Bulbafenix

Synch up time

So, after our conclave, I'm reversing course again on bulbafenix. Syr tells me that not flipping a shit over a healthy lookig bandwagon is a null tell with the bulba half of the hydra.

We'd also be willing to compromise on TMT or Goat, but this is what we want to happen.

VOTE: bulbafenix

[BulbaFenix]

Translation: "I know what's really going on, but I need to make something up quick to justify this wagon that I hopped onto."

This misrep alone should be enough defence.

And yet you fail to bring in the context for this "misrep". Don't worry. I'll do it for you.

Interesting. When I first read that I thought it made sense, like "personally I do not believe the claim". But yeah on 2nd read that's bad.

vote bulbafenix

either or really

bulba's "slip" alone is not enough to warrant lynch, it's easy for him to say he also misread that statement.

I didn't just hop onto this wagon. I started it.

Actually, this current version of the wagon was started by Zdenek voting for the "slip". You had hopped off earlier. You only hopped back on the wagon because of said "slip", which you admitted you read differently (read: correctly) (And I quote: "When I first read that I thought it made sense, like 'personally I do not believe the claim'."). So first statement proven incorrect.

And my translation of your reasoning is spot on with this in mind. You knew that your reason for hopping on our wagon (the "slip") was opportunistic, so you had to bring other reasons into play, none of which you mentioned upon your revote, and all of which had been addressed. Essentially, you made up reasons to stay on the wagon when you realized your current BS reason couldn't sustain it.

I didn't like your stevie vote, same with zdenek, I see two people enter the 2nd day with no regard for what happened overnight. So I attack you both.

I see you've dropped the "Bulb's Stevie vote was baseless" line of attack. Just going to point out how dumb this argument is. He's essentially saying that we are scum for refusing to partake in a bunch of WIFOM speculation concerning the NKs, and instead decided to scumhunt. Who would want to push that? Oh, wait. Scum.

You respond with an attack on me, saying I need to be quicklynched if it turns out to be multiball.

This is a misrepresentation of my initial post on you, since it makes an assumption that you were attacked BECAUSE of you calling us out on our Stevie vote (i.e. OMGUS). You also make it look like our only reason for calling you scum is your multiball comment. However, that was only a small part of our reason for voting you, and a not very important one at that, since that would only come into play if it was discovered that this was in fact multiball (Essentially a "in that event we'll come back to this" statement). In fact, my main point of contention was the fact that you FoS us only after you realized you had been tunneling Zdenek so long for something that both of us had done, essentially making sure that you weren't called out for being selective. Again, this is something scum is more likely to do than town.

Let me ask you a question... if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it? If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting. So if anything, it's a town tell. There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there? Town cred is lost, not gained.
I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is. There's reasons for that which I'll get moaned at if say it... let's just say multiball is fresh in my memory. The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me. Two scum kills made more sense. Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot. Well done for spotting a rev tell.

First of all, this entire paragraph is a bunch of WIFOM, so it's essentially useless as an argument. But what the heck, I'll humor you.

if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it?

Maybe. Maybe not. But without a scum flip, town speculation on the matter would be futile. It's better to assume 1 scum team until proven otherwise, especially since there are several other ways to explain 2 kills n1.

If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting.

Or you can use the 2 kills to say that we're in multiball so it looks like you're town who's legit scumhunting. Especially if you use the argument that scum wouldn't want town to know. Again, WIFOM.

So if anything, it's a town tell.

No. You are not getting town cred for this.

There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there?

There is if you are trying to convince town that you are town who is scumhunting in an effort to gain town points.

Town cred is lost, not gained.

Depends how you play. Like say, for instance, if you used WIFOM to explain how there is no scum motivation for doing what you're doing.

I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is.

Context says this is wrong. True you said, "Looks like we're in multiball.". But you did so at the very beginning of the day, and it was the very first thing you said. Given that context, you might as well have been saying (And yes I know the following is hyperbole, before you try to call me out for misrepping you), "Hey everbody, it looks like we're in multiball! Time to hunker down and find both scum teams! Isn't it great that I, as town, spotted this? I wonder why scum made those kills... Let's spec! WIFOM...WIFOM...WIFOM..." As you can see, by saying what you said when you said it, you were clearly implying that we

were

in multiball, not that we

might

be in multiball, a distinction which I clearly caught and pointed out.

The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me.

Why don't any of them make sense as vig. targets? I thought that TIP would have been an obvious vig. target, given his controversial play in the game. He makes for a horrible lynch, but is perfect for a vig., because the vig. is able to help the town by either getting rid of scum that town could allow to coast or getting rid of a potentially unhelpful townie. Essentially, it's the vig's responsibility to take care of those reads that town would be unable to deal with given their limited lynches.

Two scum kills made more sense.

Again, how? Because essentially, you're dipping into WIFOM territory here. In fact, that's all the NKs are at this point: WIFOM. This is the main reason I didn't want to address them. We have very limited information right now, so all we'd be doing would be opening ourselves up to endless WIFOM, instead of actually scumhunting. This does not benefit town at all. The only ones it benefits are scum.

Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot.

Again, WIFOM is not scumhunting and is not beneficial to town.

-Bulba

[StevieT92]

Translation: "I know what's really going on, but I need to make something up quick to justify this wagon that I hopped onto."

This misrep alone should be enough defence.

And yet you fail to bring in the context for this "misrep". Don't worry. I'll do it for you.

Interesting. When I first read that I thought it made sense, like "personally I do not believe the claim". But yeah on 2nd read that's bad.

vote bulbafenix

either or really

I like this post.

unvote, vote: Domo

bulba's "slip" alone is not enough to warrant lynch, it's easy for him to say he also misread that statement.

I didn't just hop onto this wagon. I started it.

Actually, this current version of the wagon was started by Zdenek voting for the "slip". You had hopped off earlier. You only hopped back on the wagon because of said "slip", which you admitted you read differently (read: correctly) (And I quote: "When I first read that I thought it made sense, like 'personally I do not believe the claim'."). So first statement proven incorrect.

And my translation of your reasoning is spot on with this in mind. You knew that your reason for hopping on our wagon (the "slip") was opportunistic, so you had to bring other reasons into play, none of which you mentioned upon your revote, and all of which had been addressed. Essentially, you made up reasons to stay on the wagon when you realized your current BS reason couldn't sustain it.

I didn't like your stevie vote, same with zdenek, I see two people enter the 2nd day with no regard for what happened overnight. So I attack you both.

I see you've dropped the "Bulb's Stevie vote was baseless" line of attack. Just going to point out how dumb this argument is. He's essentially saying that we are scum for refusing to partake in a bunch of WIFOM speculation concerning the NKs, and instead decided to scumhunt. Who would want to push that? Oh, wait. Scum.

You respond with an attack on me, saying I need to be quicklynched if it turns out to be multiball.

This is a misrepresentation of my initial post on you, since it makes an assumption that you were attacked BECAUSE of you calling us out on our Stevie vote (i.e. OMGUS). You also make it look like our only reason for calling you scum is your multiball comment. However, that was only a small part of our reason for voting you, and a not very important one at that, since that would only come into play if it was discovered that this was in fact multiball (Essentially a "in that event we'll come back to this" statement). In fact, my main point of contention was the fact that you FoS us only after you realized you had been tunneling Zdenek so long for something that both of us had done, essentially making sure that you weren't called out for being selective. Again, this is something scum is more likely to do than town.

Let me ask you a question... if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it? If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting. So if anything, it's a town tell. There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there? Town cred is lost, not gained.
I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is. There's reasons for that which I'll get moaned at if say it... let's just say multiball is fresh in my memory. The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me. Two scum kills made more sense. Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot. Well done for spotting a rev tell.

First of all, this entire paragraph is a bunch of WIFOM, so it's essentially useless as an argument. But what the heck, I'll humor you.

if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it?

Maybe. Maybe not. But without a scum flip, town speculation on the matter would be futile. It's better to assume 1 scum team until proven otherwise, especially since there are several other ways to explain 2 kills n1.

If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting.

Or you can use the 2 kills to say that we're in multiball so it looks like you're town who's legit scumhunting. Especially if you use the argument that scum wouldn't want town to know. Again, WIFOM.

So if anything, it's a town tell.

No. You are not getting town cred for this.

There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there?

There is if you are trying to convince town that you are town who is scumhunting in an effort to gain town points.

Town cred is lost, not gained.

Depends how you play. Like say, for instance, if you used WIFOM to explain how there is no scum motivation for doing what you're doing.

I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is.

Context says this is wrong. True you said, "Looks like we're in multiball.". But you did so at the very beginning of the day, and it was the very first thing you said. Given that context, you might as well have been saying (And yes I know the following is hyperbole, before you try to call me out for misrepping you), "Hey everbody, it looks like we're in multiball! Time to hunker down and find both scum teams! Isn't it great that I, as town, spotted this? I wonder why scum made those kills... Let's spec! WIFOM...WIFOM...WIFOM..." As you can see, by saying what you said when you said it, you were clearly implying that we

were

in multiball, not that we

might

be in multiball, a distinction which I clearly caught and pointed out.

The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me.

Why don't any of them make sense as vig. targets? I thought that TIP would have been an obvious vig. target, given his controversial play in the game. He makes for a horrible lynch, but is perfect for a vig., because the vig. is able to help the town by either getting rid of scum that town could allow to coast or getting rid of a potentially unhelpful townie. Essentially, it's the vig's responsibility to take care of those reads that town would be unable to deal with given their limited lynches.

Two scum kills made more sense.

Again, how? Because essentially, you're dipping into WIFOM territory here. In fact, that's all the NKs are at this point: WIFOM. This is the main reason I didn't want to address them. We have very limited information right now, so all we'd be doing would be opening ourselves up to endless WIFOM, instead of actually scumhunting. This does not benefit town at all. The only ones it benefits are scum.

Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot.

Again, WIFOM is not scumhunting and is not beneficial to town.

-Bulba

[Ankamius]

Any particular reason you quoted that huge post with nothing added onto it?

[StevieT92]

Translation: "I know what's really going on, but I need to make something up quick to justify this wagon that I hopped onto."

This misrep alone should be enough defence.

And yet you fail to bring in the context for this "misrep". Don't worry. I'll do it for you.

Interesting. When I first read that I thought it made sense, like "personally I do not believe the claim". But yeah on 2nd read that's bad.

vote bulbafenix

either or really

bulba's "slip" alone is not enough to warrant lynch, it's easy for him to say he also misread that statement.

I didn't just hop onto this wagon. I started it.

Actually, this current version of the wagon was started by Zdenek voting for the "slip". You had hopped off earlier. You only hopped back on the wagon because of said "slip", which you admitted you read differently (read: correctly) (And I quote: "When I first read that I thought it made sense, like 'personally I do not believe the claim'."). So first statement proven incorrect.

And my translation of your reasoning is spot on with this in mind. You knew that your reason for hopping on our wagon (the "slip") was opportunistic, so you had to bring other reasons into play, none of which you mentioned upon your revote, and all of which had been addressed. Essentially, you made up reasons to stay on the wagon when you realized your current BS reason couldn't sustain it.

I didn't like your stevie vote, same with zdenek, I see two people enter the 2nd day with no regard for what happened overnight. So I attack you both.

I see you've dropped the "Bulb's Stevie vote was baseless" line of attack. Just going to point out how dumb this argument is. He's essentially saying that we are scum for refusing to partake in a bunch of WIFOM speculation concerning the NKs, and instead decided to scumhunt. Who would want to push that? Oh, wait. Scum.

You respond with an attack on me, saying I need to be quicklynched if it turns out to be multiball.

This is a misrepresentation of my initial post on you, since it makes an assumption that you were attacked BECAUSE of you calling us out on our Stevie vote (i.e. OMGUS). You also make it look like our only reason for calling you scum is your multiball comment. However, that was only a small part of our reason for voting you, and a not very important one at that, since that would only come into play if it was discovered that this was in fact multiball (Essentially a "in that event we'll come back to this" statement). In fact, my main point of contention was the fact that you FoS us only after you realized you had been tunneling Zdenek so long for something that both of us had done, essentially making sure that you weren't called out for being selective. Again, this is something scum is more likely to do than town.

Let me ask you a question... if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it? If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting. So if anything, it's a town tell. There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there? Town cred is lost, not gained.
I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is. There's reasons for that which I'll get moaned at if say it... let's just say multiball is fresh in my memory. The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me. Two scum kills made more sense. Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot. Well done for spotting a rev tell.

First of all, this entire paragraph is a bunch of WIFOM, so it's essentially useless as an argument. But what the heck, I'll humor you.

if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it?

Maybe. Maybe not. But without a scum flip, town speculation on the matter would be futile. It's better to assume 1 scum team until proven otherwise, especially since there are several other ways to explain 2 kills n1.

If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting.

Or you can use the 2 kills to say that we're in multiball so it looks like you're town who's legit scumhunting. Especially if you use the argument that scum wouldn't want town to know. Again, WIFOM.

So if anything, it's a town tell.

No. You are not getting town cred for this.

There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there?

There is if you are trying to convince town that you are town who is scumhunting in an effort to gain town points.

Town cred is lost, not gained.

Depends how you play. Like say, for instance, if you used WIFOM to explain how there is no scum motivation for doing what you're doing.

I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is.

Context says this is wrong. True you said, "Looks like we're in multiball.". But you did so at the very beginning of the day, and it was the very first thing you said. Given that context, you might as well have been saying (And yes I know the following is hyperbole, before you try to call me out for misrepping you), "Hey everbody, it looks like we're in multiball! Time to hunker down and find both scum teams! Isn't it great that I, as town, spotted this? I wonder why scum made those kills... Let's spec! WIFOM...WIFOM...WIFOM..." As you can see, by saying what you said when you said it, you were clearly implying that we

were

in multiball, not that we

might

be in multiball, a distinction which I clearly caught and pointed out.

The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me.

Why don't any of them make sense as vig. targets? I thought that TIP would have been an obvious vig. target, given his controversial play in the game. He makes for a horrible lynch, but is perfect for a vig., because the vig. is able to help the town by either getting rid of scum that town could allow to coast or getting rid of a potentially unhelpful townie. Essentially, it's the vig's responsibility to take care of those reads that town would be unable to deal with given their limited lynches.

Two scum kills made more sense.

Again, how? Because essentially, you're dipping into WIFOM territory here. In fact, that's all the NKs are at this point: WIFOM. This is the main reason I didn't want to address them. We have very limited information right now, so all we'd be doing would be opening ourselves up to endless WIFOM, instead of actually scumhunting. This does not benefit town at all. The only ones it benefits are scum.

Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot.

Again, WIFOM is not scumhunting and is not beneficial to town.

-Bulba

I like this post.

unvote, vote: Domo






i suck at posting

[StevieT92]

agh

unvote, vote: Domo

[Rift Adrift]

Translation: "I know what's really going on, but I need to make something up quick to justify this wagon that I hopped onto."

This misrep alone should be enough defence.

And yet you fail to bring in the context for this "misrep". Don't worry. I'll do it for you.

Interesting. When I first read that I thought it made sense, like "personally I do not believe the claim". But yeah on 2nd read that's bad.

vote bulbafenix

either or really

bulba's "slip" alone is not enough to warrant lynch, it's easy for him to say he also misread that statement.

I didn't just hop onto this wagon. I started it.

Actually, this current version of the wagon was started by Zdenek voting for the "slip". You had hopped off earlier. You only hopped back on the wagon because of said "slip", which you admitted you read differently (read: correctly) (And I quote: "When I first read that I thought it made sense, like 'personally I do not believe the claim'."). So first statement proven incorrect.

And my translation of your reasoning is spot on with this in mind. You knew that your reason for hopping on our wagon (the "slip") was opportunistic, so you had to bring other reasons into play, none of which you mentioned upon your revote, and all of which had been addressed. Essentially, you made up reasons to stay on the wagon when you realized your current BS reason couldn't sustain it.

I didn't like your stevie vote, same with zdenek, I see two people enter the 2nd day with no regard for what happened overnight. So I attack you both.

I see you've dropped the "Bulb's Stevie vote was baseless" line of attack. Just going to point out how dumb this argument is. He's essentially saying that we are scum for refusing to partake in a bunch of WIFOM speculation concerning the NKs, and instead decided to scumhunt. Who would want to push that? Oh, wait. Scum.

You respond with an attack on me, saying I need to be quicklynched if it turns out to be multiball.

This is a misrepresentation of my initial post on you, since it makes an assumption that you were attacked BECAUSE of you calling us out on our Stevie vote (i.e. OMGUS). You also make it look like our only reason for calling you scum is your multiball comment. However, that was only a small part of our reason for voting you, and a not very important one at that, since that would only come into play if it was discovered that this was in fact multiball (Essentially a "in that event we'll come back to this" statement). In fact, my main point of contention was the fact that you FoS us only after you realized you had been tunneling Zdenek so long for something that both of us had done, essentially making sure that you weren't called out for being selective. Again, this is something scum is more likely to do than town.

Let me ask you a question... if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it? If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting. So if anything, it's a town tell. There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there? Town cred is lost, not gained.
I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is. There's reasons for that which I'll get moaned at if say it... let's just say multiball is fresh in my memory. The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me. Two scum kills made more sense. Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot. Well done for spotting a rev tell.

First of all, this entire paragraph is a bunch of WIFOM, so it's essentially useless as an argument. But what the heck, I'll humor you.

if it's multiball, wouldn't it be better for the scum if town didn't consider it?

Maybe. Maybe not. But without a scum flip, town speculation on the matter would be futile. It's better to assume 1 scum team until proven otherwise, especially since there are several other ways to explain 2 kills n1.

If I'm scum and I know it's multiball, I want to be able to hide behind my legit scumhunting for longer without town knwoing that scum are legit scumhunting.

Or you can use the 2 kills to say that we're in multiball so it looks like you're town who's legit scumhunting. Especially if you use the argument that scum wouldn't want town to know. Again, WIFOM.

So if anything, it's a town tell.

No. You are not getting town cred for this.

There's little scum motivation for wanting town to be aware that scum are actually scumhunting, is there?

There is if you are trying to convince town that you are town who is scumhunting in an effort to gain town points.

Town cred is lost, not gained.

Depends how you play. Like say, for instance, if you used WIFOM to explain how there is no scum motivation for doing what you're doing.

I do not know if it's multiball, I suspect it is.

Context says this is wrong. True you said, "Looks like we're in multiball.". But you did so at the very beginning of the day, and it was the very first thing you said. Given that context, you might as well have been saying (And yes I know the following is hyperbole, before you try to call me out for misrepping you), "Hey everbody, it looks like we're in multiball! Time to hunker down and find both scum teams! Isn't it great that I, as town, spotted this? I wonder why scum made those kills... Let's spec! WIFOM...WIFOM...WIFOM..." As you can see, by saying what you said when you said it, you were clearly implying that we

were

in multiball, not that we

might

be in multiball, a distinction which I clearly caught and pointed out.

The night kills did not make sense to me from a vig point of view. Maybe I'm wrong. But they seem like shit vig targets to me.

Why don't any of them make sense as vig. targets? I thought that TIP would have been an obvious vig. target, given his controversial play in the game. He makes for a horrible lynch, but is perfect for a vig., because the vig. is able to help the town by either getting rid of scum that town could allow to coast or getting rid of a potentially unhelpful townie. Essentially, it's the vig's responsibility to take care of those reads that town would be unable to deal with given their limited lynches.

Two scum kills made more sense.

Again, how? Because essentially, you're dipping into WIFOM territory here. In fact, that's all the NKs are at this point: WIFOM. This is the main reason I didn't want to address them. We have very limited information right now, so all we'd be doing would be opening ourselves up to endless WIFOM, instead of actually scumhunting. This does not benefit town at all. The only ones it benefits are scum.

Thus, I speculated. I speculate a lot.

Again, WIFOM is not scumhunting and is not beneficial to town.

-Bulba

Bulbasnark strikes again.

[Zdenek]

It does look like BulbaFenix is faking reads.

Vote Bulba

You disbelieve the mason claim?

Personally, I do not. Bulba and I have been going back and forth on this in our conversations.
...
-Fenix

Fenix doesn't think that Serene's mason claim is legitimate and thinks that he's scum.

Bingo!

Vote: BulbaFenix

This specifically looks like someone forgot who in the Bulba hydra was supposed to have what reads reguarding Serene.

Will there be no end to the people we need to lynch in this game?

[StevieT92]

Stevie:

1) Self vote isn't a scum tell. Going to paraphrase Nacho from my newbie game: "Scumtells don't exist. Look for motivation." There is both town and scum motivation to trying to shake early pressure. Scum don't want to get lynched. Town want to move the pressure onto people who are scum.

2) You don't like my posting style where I try to figure out people's motivations behind their actions so I can discern who is scum and who isn't. I don't need to stir up a shitshow when other people are doing it. Sitting back and analyzing the conflict lets you figure out who's scum.

3) Initially had Nero as a town read for the way he was tunneling you, and he was initially not nearly as bad as Serene was once Serene entered. However, Nero did get a lot worse over the course of the day, so much so that I thought the aggression wasn't town-motivated. Note how I was eventually on the lynch.

4) lol not believing a day 1 mason claim. Those are super-risky, as you are counting on there not being masons or a cop in the game, so they are far more likely to be true than false.

1) I don't really believe in "tells" per se, but I don't think a townie needs to really "shake early pressure." Also, the self-vote is a straw man type of defense, hence it being scum motivated more than town motivated.

2) Valid point. Give us more analysis, then.

3) Nice job giving a justification for your Nero vote when I didn't even mention that as a point against you AT ALL. Why haven't you "eaten rope" yet?

4) I didn't ever say I thought the claim was scummy or bad in itself. I think Serene is scummy because he's acting scummy. Just because he said he is some role doesn't make him exempt from suspicion.







What is about to follow is baseless speculation and should not be taken seriously under any circumstances:

I do agree with BulbastillpossiblyscumFenix's assertion that multiball <---> DOMOscum.

However, I personally didn't read the kills as multiball at all. What it read like to me, was a scum kill and then an SK who was going to try and claim Vig at the end of the game.



Lastly, I would like to apologize to you all, and especially PV. The rudeness in this game has indeed gotten out of hand and I've contributed my fair share of it. I'm very sorry, I cannot help some of it going forward as I am a very salty man. However, I will try and dilute my natural brine with as much fresh water as I can.

[Zdenek]

It does look like BulbaFenix is faking reads.

Vote Bulba

You disbelieve the mason claim?

Personally, I do not. Bulba and I have been going back and forth on this in our conversations.
...
-Fenix

Fenix doesn't think that Serene's mason claim is legitimate and thinks that he's scum.

Bingo!

Vote: BulbaFenix

This specifically looks like someone forgot who in the Bulba hydra was supposed to have what reads reguarding Serene.

Will there be no end to the people we need to lynch in this game?

Oh I just realized that was referring to someone in the hydra

Good, now I feel a bit better.

[Metal Sonic]

holy shit wallposts


wallpost quoters

i just skipped them. yes skipped not skimmed SKIPPED

[Metal Sonic]

anyway i read the thread

so apparently the "case" on bulba is serene throwing bullshit. allright,

may not necessarily want to amble with serene/dram's mason claim right now, but I want to

VOTE: Zdenek

opportunistic, finding bad reasons to justify a mislynch and using ubviously false/fake logic

and i may be wrong but this guy plays epicmafia

[Metal Sonic]

*gamble

also i already sworn by oath

repeat after me:

"If Nero flips town I promise to completely ignore the user Serene and his/her for the rest of the duration of this game."

good job orc you make nero proud <3

orc why calcifer? only based on scumcho's meta?

also bad idea to talk about xenoblade its in lylo and all 3 lylo players are in this thread