NY 165: A Large Normal (Game Over!)

[StubbsKVM]

Okay. I don't really see the point of your post then. Why bother sharing read directions? It's your full read that matters.

So what's your full read on dramonic and Serene?

[Zdenek]

Stubbs, as far as I can tell from your ISO, here are your scum reads and your reasons for them.

Scum:
Ankamius - scum for perhaps reading the masons differently
Baby Spice - scum for not providing content
StevieT92 - scum for not providing content + mediocre-bad content
Thirdkoopa - never mentioned before

Would you agree with this?

[Shadi1337]

Your original read on me was scum Zde, what changed as you later on put me in your town pile?

[Rift Adrift]

by watching what you do

i know how you work so

dredging though the thread on my bulba write up, I saw this post again. I can't really tell that you've kept much of an eye on me, except to notice when Syr posts.

[Rift Adrift]

Okay. I don't really see the point of your post then. Why bother sharing read directions? It's your full read that matters.

So what's your full read on dramonic and Serene?

I soooo disagree with this. Fullblown reads springing into threads like Athene from Zeus' forehead sound alarms for me. Players generally leave traces of their thought process in their interactions with their reads. Votes don't always have a trajectory of supporting posts, but they usually do. Sometimes people do cart before horse for tactical reasons, but the trajectory gets revealed when they explain their votes.

[StubbsKVM]

Zdenek, stop putting words in my mouth. I just gave you a list, you can read can't you?
If you have something to say, say it.

[Ankamius]

Okay. I don't really see the point of your post then. Why bother sharing read directions? It's your full read that matters.

So what's your full read on dramonic and Serene?

Because I'm posting specifically about that point in the game.

They're either town or scum, but they're town until proven scum. My own read on that doesn't change it.

[Zdenek]

Your original read on me was scum Zde, what changed as you later on put me in your town pile?

When people pressured you I could make sense of what you were thinking and your responses seemed genuine. Call it gut if you like.

Zdenek, stop putting words in my mouth. I just gave you a list, you can read can't you?
If you have something to say, say it.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I looked at your ISO, and that's what I got out of. Now, I'm checking to see if you have anything else you want to add or if I missed something. I ask because if this is correct then I really don't understand your null reads on TMTOLBTWNTOF and Brian Hollywood and your town read on The Goat, since they've also not provided content. The fact that you don't have a read on BulbaF seems odd to me, since you're scum reading Ank for reading the mason's differently, and BulbaFenix's reads on the masons seems incredibly contrived.

[StubbsKVM]

Okay. I don't really see the point of your post then. Why bother sharing read directions? It's your full read that matters.

So what's your full read on dramonic and Serene?

I soooo disagree with this. Fullblown reads springing into threads like Athene from Zeus' forehead sound alarms for me. Players generally leave traces of their thought process in their interactions with their reads. Votes don't always have a trajectory of supporting posts, but they usually do. Sometimes people do cart before horse for tactical reasons, but the trajectory gets revealed when they explain their votes.

Well yeah, I stand corrected. I just don't see the use in Ankamius's post? Or maybe I just don't get what he's on to?

[StubbsKVM]

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I looked at your ISO, and that's what I got out of. Now, I'm checking to see if you have anything else you want to add or if I missed something. I ask because if this is correct then I really don't understand your null reads on TMTOLBTWNTOF and Brian Hollywood and your town read on The Goat, since they've also not provided content. The fact that you don't have a read on BulbaF seems odd to me, since you're scum reading Ank for reading the mason's differently, and BulbaFenix's reads on the masons seems incredibly contrived.

You look at my ISO and assume a bunch of things. That's not putting words in my mouth?

I gave you a list and reads on them as far as I remembered. I did not look up anything before writing them down.

Let's see:

Ankamius has pinged me a few times, but I can't really remember what he did.
Baby Spice did some weird voting and displayed some really weird behaviour on day 1.
Stevie well I don't think I need to explain that one.
Thirdkoopa: The "I'm not rolefishing, but who are you talking about" post was exceptionally bad. Because people already pointed it out, I didn't see the need to repeat that.
TMT: can't remember anything he posted. How can I read him other than null? I've been wondering why people are scumreading him, but haven't put in effort to find out why.
Brian Hollywood: same thing.
The Goat: I remember him saying he was townier than Serene. I could not agree more. Maybe I just really liked that post to just want him around. The Doctor on fire thing was golden.
BulbaFenix: One head says yes, the other no. I have to admit I may have skipped some of his posts.

Maybe I should put some effort in reading through some of these guys. But after catching up 20 pages, I did not feel like it. Basically since the whole Serene/Nero theatre, I kind of lost interest and I have a hard time getting back into it. It feels like I'm not really a part of this game, just spectating. That's probably the reason why I'm lacking strong scumreads.

[Serene]

The only way that Zdenek could be white knighting us is if we are town.

Not Zdenek, but Stubbs.

You being town is a long shot independent of that.

[Serene]

Sing to the Beach Boy's "Barbara Ann"

KILL KILL KILL
KILL BULBAFENIX

KILL KILL KILL
KILL BULBAFENIX

Oh BulbaFenix, take my hand
BulbaFenix
You got me rockin and a-rollin
Rockin and a-reelin
BulbaFenix KILL KILL
KILL BULBAFENIX

[Zdenek]

You look at my ISO and assume a bunch of things. That's not putting words in my mouth?

I literally asked you if you agreed.

[Shadi1337]

Stubbs, current read of me?

[BulbaFenix]

The only way that Zdenek could be white knighting us is if we are town.

Not Zdenek, but Stubbs.

You being town is a long shot independent of that.

You need to show this.

-Fenix

[DrippingGoofball]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

[Serene]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

Cat is out of the bag.

[BulbaFenix]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

Cat is out of the bag.

This explains a lot actually...

-Bulba

[BulbaFenix]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

Actually, you do.

-Fenix

[Serene]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

at least head #3 is still anonymous

[Rift Adrift]

All of this is day 1 stuff.

Spoiler: Wall about BulbaFenix

Bulbafenix’ first reads list. Reads from a newly replaced player are really useful IMO. You get a sense of what they focused on and what they missed or glossed over. I look for at least one or two counter-the-herd reads because someone replacing in with 100s of posts to read SHOULD see the game differently from players who have been slogging through it in real time. It’s one of the benefits that replacements bring to the game.

Caught up and have snuck onto a computer. Disappointed with Fenix, as he was supposed to help me by getting me live reads while I read through the game. Anyway, here is the official reads list and catchup post:

Town

Rift Adrift

: 1 of 2 strong town reads from when I was initially skimming the thread before we replaced in. They are actively scumhunting, and all of their posts read genuine.

Calcifer

: 2nd of the strong town reads from initial skim. Same as Calcifer, only not as strong.

King Crabd

: All of their posts read as genuine. There is no attempt at fakery here.

Ankamius

: There is some genuine thought here. I was a little nervous about his mention of LYLO in #328, but I get the sense that he's the type of player to consider that as town.

DOMO

: Not as much of a gut read as the others. They appeal to the logic part of me, and they are actively scumhunting. Everything they do comes from town motivation. Therefore, they're town.

Metal Sonic

: Trust me, he's town. I wish he'd post more, though, without me having to tunnel him to death...

Baby Spice

: What little she's posted has consisted of actual scumhunting. I'd like to see more, but I'm willing to call her town for now.

BROseidon

: Everybody who thinks he's scum needs to have their heads examined. Calling out a stupid anti-town plan is not scummy. Self-voting is not scummy (contrary to popular opinion). Heck, in Voided's Nightless Mountainous game, there were 4 self votes (including myself). Guess what? They were all town. He's doing some genuine scumhunting here. He's town. Deal with it.

Null/Town

Zdenek

: I almost want to call him town. However, he's done a few things that I've never seen from him before when he was town in Voided's game. I want to observe him a little bit more first before I put him fully in the town pile.

TheIrishPope

: Fenix convinced me to put him more in the null section. Personally, I like him for town. I'm not sure I see the scum motivation in his posts. Regardless, he makes me laugh, so I'm not keen about lynching him anytime soon.

Null

Orcinus_theoriginal

: Not sure how to take this one. On the one hand, I like him for town, due to him actively scumhunting. On the other hand, I'm not agreeing with a lot of his reads, and he's been too eager lately to jump on some really fishy wagons. I think I'll need more time to sort this one out.

Serene

: Personally, I'd love to list this slot as town, not only because I liked the Newbie rage quit from their predecessor, but also because I like the idea of all the hydras being town together. However, I really do not like #646. Normally when I've seen town super secret hydras, they are not worried about being lynched should the heads become known, rather, they're worried about being NK'd. The fact that Serene said lynched suggests that they're not worried about the NK. I also do not like their push of Calcifer. The only reason they are null is because I see reasons why they could be town, and I originally wanted to put them as null/town. However, Fenix wanted to put them as scum. We compromised, hence the null.

The Goat

: Nothing much has been posted from this slot. The closest we get to anything alignment indicative is #461, which feels slightly town to me. Interested in what we get from his replacement.

TSO

: Honestly, I keep flip flopping on him. He'll post something I'll believe is scummy, such as some of his initial cases, or his attack of Metal Sonic, or his recent push for town cred. But then he'll post a bunch of things that are strongly town. I'll probably watch him and see what I think about him tomorrow.

Nero

: Eddie likes him for town. I have a bit of a scum lean on him. However, I'm not sure if this is due to actual scumminess or a difference in playstyle. He posts similarly to TIP, but he's not doing so to be funny. He doesn't explain any of his reads, he attacks players without basis, and I'm sure I've seen him arbitrarily sheeping at points (I need to check this one out later.). At best his play is anti-town. I'm just not sure if it's actually scummy.

?Null/Scum?

Shadi1337

: To be honest, I'm beginning to like him more, so he may move up before long. I just didn't like his flail earlier, as I didn't think that it felt like town flail. Fenix and I struggled real hard on his placement. Actually, screw it, he's plain null. Fenix, we can talk about it later.

Actual Null/Scum

StubbsKVM

: Fenix and I went back and forth on this one. Admittedly, it's a gut read. I don't think that a lot of his posts feel genuine. Definitely going to watch this slot as the day progresses.

Brian Hollywood

: Fenix fought for his placement closer to the scum pile. Brian hasn't posted anything game related. All of his posts have avoided what was actually happening at the time. I also don't buy his reaction to Zdenek's fake day kill, as that gambit is common enough that Brian's reaction could be faked (I've actually seen it at least twice before, and I'm relatively new to the site.).

Scum

TMTOLBTWNTOF

: I actually agree with our predecessor on this slot, although I get the feeling that Fenix is not convinced. TMT is active lurking. What he posts appears to be content at first glance, but it is actually saying nothing of importance.

Doc Holliday

: I don't like his blatant opportunism. I also feel that he and TIP are not on the same team, due to his #75 and TIP's response. If Doc is actually town, I'm actually going to take a second look at TIP.

StevieT92

: His reasons for voting and suspecting slots near the beginning of the day were bad, and I also didn't like how he said that no one should be townreading anybody so early in the game. It felt like he was trying to keep town from finding each other for as long as possible, and instead wanted them to focus on who he deigned as scum. His posts since then have not improved.

Dramonic

: His posts have contained absolutely no content. #734 feels more like knowledge than actual setup spec. He feels sure in his answer, where anybody speculating would use language that indicated that they were unsure or guessing.

ProHawk

: Post #10 was really bad, as has been repeatedly explained. However, I can understand why people are hesitant to use that as their only reasoning. His later posts, though, do not feel like town. They have a slimy quality to them, and it feels as if he's trying to manipulate people when he addresses them so that they say something that he can attack as scummy. He's scum and needs to be lynched as soon as possible. I'll be addressing some of his posts soon.

Going to address a few more recent posts before I go. Any questions?

-Bulba

This list bothered me because I could see whose side he was taking wrt to some strong disagreements in the game thread.
Specifically reading BRO, Ankamius, as town, when the majority who had an opinion did not. Why did this not look like a replacement with fresh eyes? Look at the top town reads. He was sheeping us. The comment in the Serene read about wanting all the hydras to be town together also pinged a little.

Shadi moving up to maybe null also appeared to be a little convenient, as did the scum reads. There was nothing controversial or surprising in that list whether any particular player would agree or disagree with any one player in the scum list.
833
This is the start of the push on ProHawk. Also, the gambler’s fallacy bit about Serene’s post was incorrect.

[ post]863[/post]
Pointing this one up as evidence that there was hydra disagreement this early about serene, and Fenix was the one who said the serene slot was scummy. But, this was also the “I'm getting off the phone with Bulba now... He's at the library... Here's your headstart to run....” post to ProHawk.
866
More back and forth with ProHawk. Syr characterized this interaction as “bullying” and coined (?) the term bulbasnark in one of our discussions about the game and the ProHawk/Bulba interactions. This is also where he voted Dramonic with very little trajectory after going after ProHawk since the time of the reads list.

895
Explains that the ProHawk wagon isn’t feasible. (It wasn’t, but IMO it was early to drop a genuine scum read for what amounted to a policy vote. Also more of this from the Fenix head: “You REALLY don't know Bulba very well then, do you? You should start reading and start answering his questions... Last thing you want to do is get into a war with him. It won't end well for you. Besides, it's not that hard to read walls.”
906
“I'm not threatening you. I'm promising you that you're in for a fun time soon. That's all.” -- fenix to serene re bulba. Somewhere in this section is where the push on serene started. Serene, who replaced truly14, whose flounce from the thread was one of the most genuinely town posts in the game to date. There’s a tone-deafness here that I associate mostly with scum, though a few players horrifically suck at picking up on stuff like this when they are town. I’m having trouble believing bulba or fenix are such players given what they DO pick up regarding where the town herd is milling.
I won’t link to them all, but there’s a huge push on serene in this section of the thread.
1124
Push on serene resumes, after the mason reveal. Ha I got my share of bulbasnark in this post.
1134
Switches to Stevie, which struck me as opportunistic, though could also be seen as working up from the bottom of his scum list in the first quote.

1143 Fenix broaches town/scum mason pair. Not hugely indicative. It’s possible he just didn’t know that mixed masons are explicitly blacklisted for normal games.

1313 Prohawk’s meta report on fenix, which caused him to lean town on bulbafenix.
My 1457 which outlines the Mac case. (Which has nothing whatsoever to do with him replacing out of scum games)
Somewhere in the next 200-300 posts, I decided to unvote bulbafenix mostly because I felt like their unflappable non-reaction to an increasing bandwagon looked a little town. Then Syr and I synched up and he told me that non-reaction to votes (as opposed to the content of the cases) is typical of bulba no matter what his alignment. So I revoted.
Bulbafenix’ participation fell off a little later day 1. He was on the Nero wagon but wasn’t a strong presence in the late-day discussions.

Conclusion - there is no huge ah ha in this. Many posts seem off in small ways. Some posts seem off in large ways. ProHawk's reversal on the Fenix head is pretty interesting, and I didn't pay a lot of attention to it at the time it was posted.

[Serene]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

Actually, you do.

-Fenix

You totally misunderstood everything I said and I don't feel like explain it to scum. Don't waste my time with boring, senseless chores.

[Rift Adrift]

Bulba could you guys post an updated reads list?

[BulbaFenix]

You need to show this.

No I don't.

Actually, you do.

-Fenix

You totally misunderstood everything I said and I don't feel like explain it to scum. Don't waste my time with boring, senseless chores.

I didn't misunderstand a thing. I'm simply telling you to clarify instead of dodging the clarification.

-Fenix

[DOMO]

Bulba I'm not going back and forth with you all day. I've explained myself. The scum motivation for me speculating on multiball is thin. If I'm scum and know it's multi, then I probably don't even bother posting for a while, I was busy much of day one, I could've got away with it for longer. But I had time and there were flips to discuss. You're using language against me now. That can come from a town position and you know it. I was quick to recognise that I was wrong to consider your language thing as a scum tell, something you're keen to use against me. I'm not going to have a tiring to and fro with you bulba, I'd sooner just be lynched. I've shown why your argument is flawed. You want to dismiss it as WIFOM, fine. But WIFOM is hardly a scumtell, certainly not with me. Neither is speculating. Neither is flipflopping with my vote. So I feel no reason to explain myself to you any more. I think you're scum. You should be explaining why you felt hawk was hitting his stride. Did you explain that? Pull it up for me if you did, I can't remember and I'm lazy.