Mafia As A Social Game: An Argument About Charisma

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Mafia As A Social Game: An Argument About Charisma

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I've been a strong advocate for the last few years now that--at least in the early days--it's not the scummiest player who's lynched, but the least-charismatic player.

They CAN be one and the same, but very often are not, and the reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. In the early day phases, the town doesn't have much to work off of. They don't have concrete information. They have theories and they have instincts, and therein lies the reason why it's the least-charismatic player lynched:
Because a charismatic player can generally address the concerns of both theories and evidence, in a way which sways opinion away from their lynch, regardless of whether the theory is right or wrong.

Less-charismatic players, therefore, fall under the spotlight, because they don't present themselves as favorably. I use that word, "present", intentionally, and a recent game I IC'd which allowed me a realization is why. To quote the relevant post:
In post 831, mastin2 wrote:I can sum up my lessons to most of the town in a single word: presentation.

I would recommend that to all of you, in various different ways; one of the main reasons this game was as close as it was is because most of the town players didn't present themselves as well as they needed to, whereas both Jason and I
[the scumteam for the game]
have had a
lot
of experience presenting ourselves favorably as both alignments. You don't want to structure yourself so much that your posts look artificial and hollow (that's a quick way to the noose), but you want to make sure that both you AND your reads are looked at favorably.

Basically, one of the main things is talking to specific players and working with them, coordinating not only reads, but also reasons. When you think you have something, present it to your peers and explain why you think it might be something, and evaluate off of their feedback how valid it is. You'll note that one of the main elements of my scum play throughout the entirety of this game is that I was talking with others and trying to work with them--as scum, this is to manipulate them so that they look favorably upon me. But as town, this is just as important a skill to master, because the town is the majority. You need other town players to obtain a lynch. Even if your reads are dead-on, they're worthless if you can't convince your fellow townies that you're right.

There's generally a reason I use phrases like "work with me, here" and the like, and I highly discourage players from antagonizing one another: because the town as a whole works best by working together, and to do so, they need to get that common ground. They need to hold an understanding of one another, and that's a key element of mafia games. (Also a huge reason why meta is so prevalent in the current site meta.) You need to be able to see where a player comes from, and explain where you come from, and be able to get towards a common ground. Mafia is a team game, and you can't fly solo. Not as town, and not even as scum. (It's easier as scum, but still inadvisable.) Both sides need to work as a coherent unit in order to win against the other.

If there's one lesson of mine that I'd value more than any other, it'd be that--to recognize that there's a grander element of mafia that extends beyond just yourself, and that you need to think of others.
My statement of it being the least-charismatic player would more accurately be defined as the player who least presented themselves favorably.

At first, it may
seem
like a skill that benefits scum more than town, but it's a VITAL skill to master as both alignments, for the reasons I touched upon: because mafia, as a team game, extends beyond just yourself.

Many players on this site have those issues with presentation, so I tried to develop some tips. Newbie or veteran, this is something I'd highly recommend reading, because it not only talks about how to dodge (mis)lynches, but also how to obtain your choice in lynch, a problem far too many people have.

-
Talk to the players, not at them.
It's a subtle, but vital, difference. Talking TO a player is working with them, it's trying to appeal specifically at them. Talking AT a player is talking which just so happens to be addressed to a player, but isn't really meant for them.

-
Keep calm and rational.
Yes, you'll get emotional, and often have quite justified reasons for shouting and screaming at players. But the site meta is slowly moving away from tolerating strongarm tactics (this is a good thing!) and is lowering their acceptance of AtE, so this tactic is becoming increasingly ineffective. Instead, take deep breaths, calm down, and come back when you can present a coherent argument. Use emphasis when necessary, and not at all times, and you'll be able to highlight key points in your argument much more effectively.

-
Display confidence, not arrogance; display humbleness, not doubt.
It's a fine line to walk, but not one you want to cross. You need to present yourself with energy to tell others you're right, but you need to be careful to not let them think you're arrogantly assuming you can't be wrong; that's a permanent one-way ticket to being ignored. It also goes the other way--you shouldn't blow up your reputation greater than it actually is. Not only will it have meta consequences (as expectations of you become what you bragged about), but it'll also make it so that people are less-likely to believe your reads are grounded in reality.

So, when it comes to your capabilities, be realistic about what you have to offer. You DO have to watch out for taking this humbleness too far, though. You don't want your reads to be seen as worthless; you want them to hold value.

-
Don't antagonize players!
Town, scum, doesn't matter. It's a stupid idea. :P A common instance of this is saying to a player, "I don't need to address you, you're scum!" Well, what happens if you later change your mind about them and think them to be town? Precisely; they've (understandably) lost their confidence in you, meaning that your newer (and probably more accurate) reads are held in doubt because of a stupid mistake of arrogantly antagonizing a player.

-
The town is made up of a majority.
So talk to multiple players. Don't talk to them in generalities; in my experience, that's not very convincing. Talk specifically to each and every single player. I realize that in a larger game, that's more of an effort, but it works, and it works damn-well, especially if you target other key players. (For instance, the player spearheading your lynch, or the player in strongest opposition to the wagon you're pressing, or people you think will be likely to join you on your latest endeavor.)

-
Address other players.
The opposite of the above--just as you need to talk to every player about your own reads, you also need to talk to every player about their read on you. Failure to do so can create an enemy where an ally is desperately needed.

-
Find a common ground.
I dislike using the term "compromise", because that often doesn't work well, at least, not for a town player. I think a better term is Negotiate. When talking to another player, see what you have in common with one another, and if you can get them to your side. You need to negotiate with them so that you're working together, as a team. If you're desperate, I call this bartering (e.g., "when I flip town, lynch X"), in that you know you can't get what you want today, but can set the stage for future days. But note that bartering IS a move of desperation (most players ignore the lynched, and only a minority listen to nightkilled players because NKA is written off as wifom); when used outside of desperation, it's likely to be seen as "setting up (mis)lynches". Instead, try to invoke negotiation early (when rational), rather than bargaining later (when desperate).

-
Admit that you could be wrong.
Nobody's a scumhunting god; this ties into the humble/arrogance, ties into the common ground, ties into don't antagonize, basically, everything. You can be wrong, so you have to work with others to show why you think you're right.

* Related,
Keep an open mind.
Accept that there will be alternative viewpoints, and you'll be in a much stronger position, as you're able to better work with them.

-
Tell the truth!
If you misremember, don't try to invent an explanation. Come clean, and admit you were wrong. It'll be far more consistent in the long-run, because if you try to invent reasoning, your inventions build up one after another and begin to contradict themselves quite heavily later-on. This goes back to the humble/arrogant tip above.

-
Keep things clear.
This is a HUGE thing. If you're constantly walling or constantly spamming, chances are astronomically high that people are skimming what you're saying, if not flat-out skipping it. That's bad. You can't change them, but you CAN change yourself. Succinct posts will do you wonders; keep things as short and coherent as possible.

Even stream-of-consciousness posting gains value with a minor editorial touch, making it easier to follow your thought process and making it easier to see where you are coming from.

-
Don't lose focus, don't over-focus.
Letting yourself get distracted can help prevent others from considering you credible. The opposite is just as true, if not more; we call it confirmation bias/tunnel vision. The town is made up of a lot of players, and you shouldn't spend too much or too little time on any specific group of them; you should be addressing all of them equally.

Is this guide going to be everything you need? No, it's just some general tips. These aren't iron-cast rules; I chose the term guidelines for a reason. I can't guarantee that following these will make you unlynchable (as even a charismatic guy like myself gets lynched, even early-on). It WILL help to reduce your rate of being lynched, though, because a lot of these problems are things I see in far too many players these days.

It's a large problem the site as a whole has, and this guide is meant as a way to minimize it.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:03 pm

Post by zoraster »

fate hardly ever gets mislynched day 1. theory disproven.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:08 pm

Post by Faraday »

I don't really think this has anything to do w/ charisma.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:10 pm

Post by Faraday »

I mean I agree with the notion that charismatic players can be harder to lynch but I'm not neccessarily sure it's the least charismatic player who gets lynched, either.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 1, zoraster wrote:fate hardly ever gets mislynched day 1. theory disproven.
(1) This isn't about day one, specifically. It's not even specifically about early-game, although most of these tips are strongest then. (2) Fate's a bit of a relic of the past. He's the player who POPULARIZED strongarm tactics (well, there are others, but he's one of the first who made them consistently work as a viable playstyle, creating endless number of Fate copycats--there's a reason we call them Fate copycats, after all :P), and as such, not exactly the ideal player model with the current gradual shift in site meta. (3) And despite his reputation for being irrational and strongarming, I've seen Fate play in games. He CAN be rational, cool-headed, and even logical, when it's required of him. It's easier for him to just go strongarm, but on occasions where that doesn't work, he shifts his approach and tries a different angle of attack, an angle WELL within the boundaries of my guide above, and
that
works for him.

Which brings me to the next: (4) Fate may rarely get lynched, but his style now being increasingly less unique to him means that he's somewhat lost his charismatic touch in convincing people he's right. He might do a damn-good job of convincing others he's not scum, but he can't always get that push to make others think he's right. Not with his normal infamous tactics, at least. To get what he wants, he actually does many of the things I describe, and few of them fit the stereotype I'm discouraging.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:17 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

Nothing terribly surprising here, but well-written.

That said, I'm wagoned pretty often, but very rarely lynched. I don't believe I'm a particularly abrasive player, though I am wordy. I believe some of this is due to charisma/presence, but it doesn't explain the wagons in the first place.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:04 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I think there is credibility to this theory. Think about the players who you commonly see get mislynched. Think about their playstyles. Now think about their play in the games where they get mislynched. They often are minimal posters who do not appear to be as invested in the game as other players.

It is true that these players don't always get lynched but they almost always arouse suspicion. It is the same for prickly, or spiky as Maggie Smith puts it, players like Thor, LlamaFluff, and Magua. They are often not lynched but they do arouse their fair share of suspicion for being generally more antagonistic than average.

It is a trait I've noticed in my own lynches. When I talk down or insult the town, I more often get mislynched. When I appease to them, acting nice in the process, they mislynch me less.

But I do have to say, yelling at the town is cathartic. :shifty:
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Post by Aj The Epic »

I've always believed mafia to be a game of connections. I've believe that there are many ways to find connections, but rarely is what a player saying actually indicative to alignment.

Patterns are one of the main part of mafia theory. We all look for them, and in a game, we have 'standards' we expect players to fill. They should allot an amount of posts for x,y,z and explain themselves to a certain and specified extent when asked about specific subjects. All these formalities are expected patterns, whether based on metagame knowledge or just psychology (guilty spend more time defending, while innocent will state their mind, etc.). But, I firmly believe the quickest way to catch scum is to watch a person's voting patterns and judge by their words how much belief they have that a specific person is scum. If this belief does not hold true like it should, then haven't you found a flaw in the logic of what a townie would do? By science, we formulate a hypothesis, test, and conclude from results gathered. Votes are the most solid ways to experiment with and therefore the best for science. Words are the supporting information, denoting a player's true strength of read.

While charisma is good, it will not win an argument of facts. It WILL, however, allow you to survive as mafia. Understanding the people you play with and against and hence becoming someone who can play their strengths is all apart of charisma, but this only seems beneficial as scum. Why dictate players, disguise yourself, or even win arguments by charisma and not facts?

The fact is that someone who understands sociology and psychology to it's fullest potential will most likely win every game. But at sociology's core is interaction, and I personally believe that all scum find the most major flaw in their interaction. Why does an SK have a shot at winning? Because he/she can convince him/herself mentally that they are a vig, and they are working independent of everyone else. Their interactions are not going to trip them up so much as scum, which is all that makes SK winnable at all.

However, even for being charismatic, as mafia, you have to disobey a lot of the rules you've put down, mainly 'tell the truth'. I'm not a particularly honest person in game. It helps me to be able to lie constantly so as to lie comfortably. Mafia has literally made me a worse person in real life because I have become a better liar for it. Also, I find it incredibly helpful to ignore the 'talk to players, not at' to the ones I find scummy, town or scum. The reactions vary drastically and, as scum, I have a very frustrated townie not knowing how he needs to address me back.

But the end-all rule for scum is to keep consistent reads and take on strong opponents. TvT is a very real belief and it hurts town when it is TvS.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Post by Majiffy »

Big fan of OP. Definitely don't agree with the don't be arrogant/antagonistic, as I love to play that card. But the rest is definitely spot-on with optimal town play.
In post 5, Mr. Flay wrote:...
though I am wordy
. I believe some of this is due to charisma/presence, but it doesn't explain the wagons in the first place.
Bolded is why. Apathetic sheeptown will lynch the wallposters first so they have less shit to sort through when they feel they can finally get a grasp on the game.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 8, Majiffy wrote:Apathetic sheeptown will lynch the wallposters first so they have less shit to sort through when they feel they can finally get a grasp on the game.
Its the opposite more often than not from experience, like amazingly opposite. If you can make wallposts that are sound most players immediately equate it to town. So much easier to get a player who doesnt make big posts lynched. Maybe spammy wall posters are easy lynches, but go through all of the "really hard lynches" on the site and you get far more wall post type players. Lynch bait are mostly spammers and lurkers.

Also im not THAT antagonistic (and will usually just stop at calling them derps unless they are ruffling me or im trying to push theory that is getting met with dismissal/resistance), and actually find it more the opposite of what you are saying. When you don't really behave aggressively when needed, that gets you into trouble suspicion wise. Stepping in and stopping something bad from happening or keeping someone from being overly anti-town works well in limited amounts. Going way overboard on being aggressive is bad, being afraid to make another player mad is bad too. Happy medium is hard to find because where that medium is will vary vastly from player to player.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:14 pm

Post by Majiffy »

In post 9, LlamaFluff wrote:
In post 8, Majiffy wrote:Apathetic sheeptown will lynch the wallposters first so they have less shit to sort through when they feel they can finally get a grasp on the game.
Its the opposite more often than not from experience, like amazingly opposite. If you can make wallposts that are sound most players immediately equate it to town. So much easier to get a player who doesnt make big posts lynched. Maybe spammy wall posters are easy lynches, but go through all of the "really hard lynches" on the site and you get far more wall post type players. Lynch bait are mostly spammers and lurkers.
Weird, I've usually seen the more concise players being read as town more often, and the wall posters being tl;dr'ed and eventually lynched as a compromise or policy following one person making a case against them.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:02 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

In post 8, Majiffy wrote:Definitely don't agree with the don't be arrogant/antagonistic, as I love to play that card.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:26 pm

Post by pitoli »

Mastin, thanks for the good read! I appreciate the point about finding common ground as I find it probably the most difficult part of playing town so far.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Post by Effulgence »

Ah. So this is why Faraday gets mslynched D1 so often.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:47 am

Post by Zachrulez »

I think the fear of being mislynched and the reaction to that fear being realized (A wagon on you.) tends to be the thing that most commonly results in a mislynch. Towns can get focused in on these kind of players and the targets can get so focused on themselves that everyone just ends up ignoring all the other pretty scummy posts that are out there being made by actual scum there for the taking to be observed and lynched with fire.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:14 am

Post by mastin2 »

Something worth mentioning--many individuals here disagree with the "arrogance" point, but I'd like to clarify: the central argument for that point is to basically present your reads for their actual value. You're no scumhunting god, so your reads won't be perfect, but sometimes, the 'arrogance' is justified in that your reads are FAR better than average. In that case, it'd be a bad idea to be overly humble and not present them for their value. But it's still a fine line to walk. You might enjoy presenting yourself as arrogant, but it's easy to go too far, and for people to lose their respect in you if they feel your arrogance is unjustified.

The tl;dr version: Your arrogance might be warranted, but you need to
convince the town
that your arrogance is warranted. :P
Which is why, generally, I recommend toning the arrogance level down (at least, initially), so that you can better get them onto your side to sheep ya.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:20 am

Post by gorckat »

A lot of this reminded me of a re-read I made of hito's On Compromises last night.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:23 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

In post 0, mastin2 wrote:-Tell the truth! If you misremember, don't try to invent an explanation. Come clean, and admit you were wrong. It'll be far more consistent in the long-run, because if you try to invent reasoning, your inventions build up one after another and begin to contradict themselves quite heavily later-on. This goes back to the humble/arrogant tip above.
Wait, how am I supposed to fakeclaim guilties on people then?
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:00 pm

Post by Majiffy »

In post 11, uctriton00 wrote:
In post 8, Majiffy wrote:Definitely don't agree with the don't be arrogant/antagonistic, as I love to play that card.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:13 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 16, gorckat wrote:A lot of this reminded me of a re-read I made of hito's On Compromises last night.
(As long as you remember that compromise lynches are still bad, it's okay. The Article is nice but I tend to disagree - you an swing a compromise lynch fairly quickly, for the majority of the day you should be voting the person you believe to be the best vote (which is probably the person you find scummiest, but not always depending on :stuff:)
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:20 am

Post by kuribo »

I've only ever been mislynched twice, both at lylo

I hate the term "fate copycat" because I was yelling at people long before fate. HOWEVER, I do feel his success here has led to enough people trying to emulate it that it has reduced the effectiveness of rage. I notice this in my own games, people are so used to getting yelled at that it just doesn't matter to them. I can't speak for fate, but I know for myself that raging helps me gauge people's reactions. Or I'm just legitimately pissed off. I also feel moderators are more lenient than they were back in 2008 when I first asked someone to put down the crack pipe. The proliferation site wide of the "autism" insult is an example of this. Not for the better.

Sad thing is I've been yelling at people so long I've just about forgotten how to play without caps locking, name calling, or photoshopping my avatar murdering theirs.

I'm considering doing a series of public service announcements about why we shouldn't rage, as part of my MafiaScum Rage Rehabilitation.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:51 am

Post by The Fonz »

It's less 'the least charismatic player gets lynched' and more 'whoever the charismatic players want lynched are the lynch candidates.'
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:58 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 21, The Fonz wrote:It's less 'the least charismatic player gets lynched' and more 'whoever the charismatic players want lynched are the lynch candidates.'
Again, these are pretty much the same. If a charismatic player wants to lynch another charismatic player, that's not happening. (Well, it could, but often won't. :P) If their next choice is also a charismatic player, same story; they're not going to get that lynch. And so on, until they get to a name on their scum list...who
isn't
a charismatic player.

So your version is also true, but has the same net effect: charismatic players live, uncharismatic players get lynched.

Or, in my words, players presenting themselves positively live, and players presenting themselves poorly get lynched.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:01 am

Post by Nero Cain »

I get mislynched all the time for fuck all 'cause I'm uncharismatic as fuck.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:07 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 23, Nero Cain wrote:I get mislynched all the time for fuck all 'cause I'm uncharismatic as fuck.
And you also have many of the problems I describe above, Nero. :P

If you tried improving your charisma (my tips above are meant to help!), you might do better. I know your reads have a higher accuracy than normal, but again, you have to actually try to be charismatic in order to make it work.
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