[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[quadz08]

Day Talk is a much smaller advantage than a confirmed town player.

[Cheery Dog]

Bumping this one because I think it has potential after thinking about it for awhile.

Cold Stone

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather

?

Similar to Carbon 14, but both cops are useful. Just differently useful. Vanilla Cop is more powerful obviously. Maybe make Godfather variate with a Goon?

Edit:

Cold Stone V2

1 Vanilla Cop
1 Cop
3 VTs

1 Goon
1 Godfather OR Goon

Playing around with a Friends and Enemies...

Enemy of My Enemy

9x Vanilla
--
1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia Amnesic Seer (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)
--
1x Wolf Goon
1x Wolf Amnesic Cop (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)

Basically playing the scum against eachother. Wolf can find mafia. Mafia can find wolf. Can either pass the results to their partner, give results on their partner, lots of room for different plans of attack.

Stone Cold seems more like Twin Trap actually. I think it could work in Mirco though.

I think town has a disadvantage in EoME, as I don't know why you wouldn't just give the results to your buddy as scum. (and they wouldn't reveal it to town even if it was the other team - if they want them dead, they're just night kill them.)
I guess it would get interesting if either goon dies though.
Overall it's a multiball mountainous feel to it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Um, for EoME, what format do results get given in? Scumfaction/NotScumfaction or Town/NotTown?

[LlamaFluff]

I think town has a disadvantage in EoME, as I don't know why you wouldn't just give the results to your buddy as scum. (and they wouldn't reveal it to town even if it was the other team - if they want them dead, they're just night kill them.)
I guess it would get interesting if either goon dies though.
Overall it's a multiball mountainous feel to it.

I can actually see the motivations in giving results to players they think are town

1) It can "clear" a partner if they target them - Mafia Seer targets the goon, sends to town, town gets the Goon is "Not Wolf"
2) Town are likely to claim the result if its a guilty, causes instant lynch

This may need more VT, but I don't like following the friends and enemies tactic of giving confirmed town in masons when there are "cops" to start.

Um, for EoME, what format do results get given in? Scumfaction/NotScumfaction or Town/NotTown?

Seer gets Wolf/Not Wolf
Cop gets Mafia/Not Mafia

[BBmolla]

LF do you prefer V1 or V2 of Cold Stone?

V1 is probably better now that I'm relooking at it.

[JacobSavage]

v1 is definitly better.

[GuyInFreezer]

Politics

1x 1-shot governor/1-shot doublevoter (player chooses)
1x tracker/cop (random)
5x VT
1x mafia godfather / 1-shot ninja (depends on the second PR)
1x mafia goon

[GuyInFreezer]

Also, is governor normal role?

[Mr. Flay]

Not decided either way yet.

Normal_Game#Roles

[LlamaFluff]

Politics

1x 1-shot governor/1-shot doublevoter (player chooses)
1x tracker/cop (random)
5x VT
1x mafia godfather / 1-shot ninja (depends on the second PR)
1x mafia goon

Problem with the GF/Tracker is that you are basically nullifying the town PR. If its a GF than the cop has only one they can get a positive on. If the ninja they at max can be tracked twice really.

That said im not sure what purpose the Gov/DV will serve more than a named townie for the most part. That and I have no clue how a DV is a one shot role in this case. Is ita role that only get a DV on the day they choose? If so when is it chosen? Can votes be split, are public, etc?

[GuyInFreezer]

Yeah I realized that DV is kinda useless.
The point of the government was to prevent a scumblitz at LyLo, but I also realized that in 9p it's kinda too townsided.

So here's the revised setup:

1x 1-shot governor
1x cop
3x VT
2x goons

How does this look?

[GuyInFreezer]

Either that or with 1x goon 1x godfather

[callforjudgement]

The problem is anything with a large number of killing roles (Texas Justice, Fight or Flight are two off the top of my head) have been broken mid-game.

Kill Everyone Mafia (4 vigs, 3 scum) also ended up being heavily townsided; scum won the test game, but via the method of killing townies who attempted to break the setup. The dead thread broke it.

[LlamaFluff]

v1 is definitly better.

This.

I will try and coordinate with quadz since its technically a mini over where a trial run will take place unless someone brings up a problem with the setup over the next few days.

[Mr. Flay]

The problem is anything with a large number of killing roles (Texas Justice, Fight or Flight are two off the top of my head) have been broken mid-game.

Kill Everyone Mafia (4 vigs, 3 scum) also ended up being heavily townsided; scum won the test game, but via the method of killing townies who attempted to break the setup. The dead thread broke it.

Wait Your Turn, Tex may not have been tested sufficiently yet, but the games run so far have not been townsided in any way.

[callforjudgement]

Wait Your Turn, Tex may not have been tested sufficiently yet, but the games run so far have not been townsided in any way.

It's broken via No Lynch, No Kill, isn't it? You No Lynch repeatedly, taking no night actions, until all the Mafia have taken their shots (you know how many there are, so you can keep track of this). Then everyone claims odd or even. Then you circle-target; whichever category has more Mafia claiming it has to circle-target first.

This is pretty reliable with the typical version of the Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies rule (which requires scum to break NLNK cycles via killing).

[JasonWazza]

So in other words your gonna let the Town kill themselves, Scum have no reason to do said killing.

[Mr. Flay]

Wait Your Turn, Tex may not have been tested sufficiently yet, but the games run so far have not been townsided in any way.

It's broken via No Lynch, No Kill, isn't it? You No Lynch repeatedly, taking no night actions, until all the Mafia have taken their shots (you know how many there are, so you can keep track of this). Then everyone claims odd or even. Then you circle-target; whichever category has more Mafia claiming it has to circle-target first.

This is pretty reliable with the typical version of the Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies rule (which requires scum to break NLNK cycles via killing).

Mafia are not Compulsive in that game. So at worst you'd get Happily Ever After.

[Antagon]

For some reason, the Fire and Ice Open setup has such an abysmal Town win rate. And that includes Open 476, where the town managed to lynch Mafia for the first 3 days, yet managed to make a 3p LyLo situation with only one mislynch.
When I skimmed this topic, I didn't see anything about adding an extra VT to Fire and Ice.
Right now, town can lynch Mafia 3 days in a row and still make it to a MyLo situation.
START: 8 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Ice Mafia Lynch - 8 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 6 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Fire Mafia Lynch - 6 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 4 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Ice Mafia Lynch - 4 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 3 v 1

With 13 players, town can afford an extra mislynch.
START: 9 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Fire Mafia Lynch - 9 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 7 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Ice Mafia Lynch - 7 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 5 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Fire Mafia Lynch - 5 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 4 v 1

[callforjudgement]

Mafia are not Compulsive in that game. So at worst you'd get Happily Ever After.

Right; I was balancing against the normal rule that Mafia have to move first if nobody is doing anything.

Even so, having a Happily Ever After as an option means that town can't possibly do any worse than 50%, because if the setup is scumsided, town should just take the draw.

[Mr. Flay]

Except that Towns LOVE to shoot (MAD, EBHOBANHAR, etc). Nobody is going to sign up for that game to play the safe odds.

[LlamaFluff]

Except that Towns LOVE to shoot (MAD, EBHOBANHAR, etc). Nobody is going to sign up for that game to play the safe odds.

If you can break it so not shooting works then it still fails. If mass claim followed by optimal play is a forced win it doesnt work. We do see setups like Hard Boiled there where Choice 1 >> Choice 2 still have town willingly go with Choice 2 at times.

[DoctorPepper]

Will I get moderation experience for running an 11p Nomination Mafia as an Open?
Similar to this game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=17862

[callforjudgement]

Well, shooting is optimal (in fact, mandatory) in the EBHOB… setup. Good point about MAD, though.

And as Kill Everyone Mafia shows, a setup being breakable doesn't necessarily mean that people will have the discipline to break it.

[LlamaFluff]

Will I get moderation experience for running an 11p Nomination Mafia as an Open?
Similar to this game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=17862

I don't think this is balanced.

8:4 is somewhat townsided already in a nightless game. I don't think the nom mechanic is even close to be worth losing a scum