[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LlamaFluff]

For some reason, the Fire and Ice Open setup has such an abysmal Town win rate. And that includes Open 476, where the town managed to lynch Mafia for the first 3 days, yet managed to make a 3p LyLo situation with only one mislynch.
When I skimmed this topic, I didn't see anything about adding an extra VT to Fire and Ice.
Right now, town can lynch Mafia 3 days in a row and still make it to a MyLo situation.
START: 8 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Ice Mafia Lynch - 8 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 6 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Fire Mafia Lynch - 6 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 4 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Ice Mafia Lynch - 4 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 3 v 1

With 13 players, town can afford an extra mislynch.
START: 9 v 2 v 2
Day 1: Fire Mafia Lynch - 9 v 2 v 1
Night 1: 2 Town Kills - 7 v 2 v 1
Day 2: Ice Mafia Lynch - 7 v 1 v 1
Night 2: 2 Town Kills - 5 v 1 v 1
Day 3: Fire Mafia Lynch - 5 v 1
Night 3: Town Kill - 4 v 1

Im fully willing to give Fire and Ice another townie and see how it runs.

9x Townie

1x Mafia Goon
1x Amnesic Mafia Seer (gets wolf/not wolf)

1x Wearwolf
1x Amnesic Wearwolf Cop (gets mafia/not mafia)

If no one has issues with EomE I may give that one a trial run given the interest that it appears to have spawned

[Guyett]

Hi I'm new here but I have an idea for a mafia game to run when I'm allowed to mod games, this is one type of game that I have modded on another site.
I'd love some feedback on it as I'd like to know if it is balanced ect.

so it's called Mafia vs Cartel
25 people

Town roles

Mayor: Double vote and 1 shot lynch stop. A new mayor is elected within 24 hours of the old mayors death if the mayor is killed. Mayor is town initally but elected mayors may not be.

Cop: investegates if player is mafia or not

DEA agent: investigates if player is cartel or not

FBI agent: investigates if the player is a serial killer

Mason: 3 masons in the game, however 1 may be in a faction.

2 shot Desperado: Day vig with 2 kills (cant be used on the same day).... however if the targed is town aligned the townie survives and the desperado dies. Turns into a VT after the power is used

Vengeful suicide bomber: 1 shot Day vig that suicided on impact. Supersaint power takes out the person who preforms the hammer or the night kill.

Lie Detector: used once per day, is able to check whether a statement is true or false.

Priest: forces a player to confess their alignment in the thread.

Apprentice: this player inherits the role of the first player with a role power that is lynched or killed

Coward: Bulletproof townie as long as they don't have a vote registered at the end of the day.

Miller: Investigates as Mafia

Junkie: investigates as Cartel

Magician: 1 shot lynchproof townie

Vanilla townie: there'll likely be 4 of them... main power is their votes

Third party

serial killer: night kills

Mafia

Godfather: investigates as town

Bodyguard: 2 shot protection of the Godfather. Dies protecting the Godfather the 2nd time

2 shot Mafia faction cop: investigates if the player is Cartel or not Cartel

1 shot Mafia recruiter: can make a player an offer they can't refuse. however if the player is in the cartel they do refuse and die in the process.

the recruited player has the option of the following roles

2 shot conman: disguise the alignment of any player to any alignment of your chosing

Roleblocker: block the role of any player for the day

1 shot silencer: silence a player for 24 hours... no posting anywhere relating to the game.

cartel

Generalissimo: investigates as town

Lieutenant: 2 shot protection of the Generalissimo. Dies protecting the Generalissimo the 2nd time

2 shot Cartel Faction Cop: investigates if a player is mafia or not mafia

1 shot Cartel Drafter: Convinces a player to join the cartel or they'll kill their family. Mafia don't have any family so they die rather than join.

the recruited player has the option of the following roles

1 shot hitman: day vig

2 shot extortionist: forces any player to change vote to one of your chosing

2 shot thief: the player choses to steal the power of any player for 48 hours... the person whos powers were stolen from is roleblocked for that time.


What do people think?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

20/4/4/1?

Bastard masons?

It's broken by massclaim. Sure everyone has this cool power but massclaim breaks it so hard. Unless you run it 25 and give the scum knowledge of which roles aren't in there.

[Guyett]

Forgot to mention that not all roles will be used and some are double

[Guyett]

And its not guaranteed that recruit will work too as last time i ran it cartel tried recruiting a mafia so instead of potentially 5 on each it went 3-4

[Karnage]

Docs and Blocks Mafia

3 town Doctors
3 town Roleblockers
2 Mafia Goons

I think it would be extremely chaotic and fun. RB's could block the Doc that might have saved the NK. When there is no NK it will be hard to determine if it was a save or a block and who was targeted etc...

I'd appreciate thoughts on if there needs to be changes for balance purposes.

(If a similar idea has already been proposed, I apologize but I wasn't going to read 200+ pages to find out.)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It's semi-open, and really I don't get the appeal.

Docs and Blocks looks cool, but mafia could get screwed if they make it to end-game and they for instance, kill all the docs and they're the only claimed doc.

[Karnage]

Docs and Blocks looks cool, but mafia could get screwed if they make it to end-game and they for instance, kill all the docs and they're the only claimed doc.

I'm not sure if there is anything to change that without altering the main concept of the setup. Maybe if we added some VTs and another goon?

[LlamaFluff]

Docs and Blocks Mafia

3 town Doctors
3 town Roleblockers
2 Mafia Goons

I think it would be extremely chaotic and fun. RB's could block the Doc that might have saved the NK. When there is no NK it will be hard to determine if it was a save or a block and who was targeted etc...

I'd appreciate thoughts on if there needs to be changes for balance purposes.

(If a similar idea has already been proposed, I apologize but I wasn't going to read 200+ pages to find out.)

Day one massclaim. Scum in major trouble as town can just coordinate to make the game nightless.

[Karnage]

LlamaFluff, can you walk me through how that would happen?

[LlamaFluff]

Well D1 massclaim ends with one of the three following:

3x Doc, 5x RB (in which all three doctors are confirmed town) - All Docs protect in a circle and systematically kill all of the RB claims
5x Doc, 3x RB (all RB confirmed town) - Lynch Doctor A, organize so all RBers have a unique mark. Only way a kill can happen is if scum was unblocked, rinse and repete
4x Doc, 4x RB (most likely so I will advance purely with this)

4x Doc all claim, and protect in an A->B->C->D->A circle. For one of them to die, the one who protected them must be scum. RBers go in a pair A-B and C-D. Same principle applies. So you basically are playing two mini-games of 1v3, if scum gets lynched in the first two of either group they forceably lose the game. Even first three I think may be a dooming loss meaning town odds with ideal scum play probably start at the 25% mark as you are going to lynch in the Doc pool there as RB pool has itself all locked up, meaning leaving the cleared doctor at the end (worst case) again has a random 75% town win. As you need that twice... you are looking at about a 1/16 chance of scum winning if they play perfectly.

Basically the more unique roles you have the worst off scum are going to be.

If you did something more like

1-4 RBers
1-4 Doctors
2 goons

Random draw PRS to have a total of 7 (think that's better for this game either way) may be workable. That many kill stoppers though you are going to need more scum because you approach nightless where scum need over 1/3 of the game. 7:3 may work with randomization of the RB/Doc numbers to prevent massclaim being an instantly breaking strategy (see Diffusion of Power for this done well)

[Karnage]

What you said about massclaim makes sense now, thanks.

If you did something more like

1-4 RBers
1-4 Doctors
2 goons

Random draw PRS to have a total of 7 (think that's better for this game either way) may be workable. That many kill stoppers though you are going to need more scum because you approach nightless where scum need over 1/3 of the game. 7:3 may work with randomization of the RB/Doc numbers to prevent massclaim being an instantly breaking strategy (see Diffusion of Power for this done well)

If you randomly drew 1 RB and 4 Docs would you have 2 VT's to make up the difference?
If you ended up with 4 RB's would that produce any action resolution problems?
I agree that adding another mafia member would be a good idea.

[Shamrock]

Mark of the Beast

3 Mafia Goons
2 Cops
8 Vanilla Townies
Special: During pre-game, the mafia chooses 4 players to give the mark of the beast. These players appear guilty to investigations for the rest of the game. They are not informed that this has happened and they still flip as their original roles.

No idea whether these numbers are balanced but give me suggestions for numbers tweaks and thoughts on the concept. If people think it's townsided a mafia RB could be thrown in; if scumsided then perhaps reduce the number of marks.

[Leafsnail]

That looks scumsided to me, a guilty result would basically mean nothing and the cops would get it more often than not.

[Shamrock]

Right, I mean obviously the point is that you can trust your innocents but not your guilties, which forces you to use the Cop role differently from normal.

Thinking about it more though, the scum are obviously going to favor killing and lynching unmarked targets. Three marks might be better.

[JasonWazza]

Make them only put down 2 Marks and make the other mark a Miller (unknown would be best)

The less marks Mafia place the better.

[Cheery Dog]

Thinking about it more though, the scum are obviously going to favor killing and lynching unmarked targets

Go with says ones that can't be marked - like Chosen Mafia?

[Shamrock]

Well, I mean, the fact that the marks are placed by the scum is what makes the setup interesting. Without that it's just "cop investigations randomly fail sometimes."

[JasonWazza]

Here's the problem.

3 Mafia
2 Cops
5 Vanilla Townies
3 Millers

Is basically how the setup turns out, more often then not the Millers will be the strongest townie players, and unless lynched will survive till a LYLO situation.

Hence why the number of marks that scum place should be minimized as much as possible, because the likelihood of the 3 getting lynched at all (even with a claimed cop guilty) is low.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, you have night 1. I'd say it'll be 3 of the 4 strongest townies.

[LlamaFluff]

What you said about massclaim makes sense now, thanks.

If you did something more like

1-4 RBers
1-4 Doctors
2 goons

Random draw PRS to have a total of 7 (think that's better for this game either way) may be workable. That many kill stoppers though you are going to need more scum because you approach nightless where scum need over 1/3 of the game. 7:3 may work with randomization of the RB/Doc numbers to prevent massclaim being an instantly breaking strategy (see Diffusion of Power for this done well)

If you randomly drew 1 RB and 4 Docs would you have 2 VT's to make up the difference?
If you ended up with 4 RB's would that produce any action resolution problems?
I agree that adding another mafia member would be a good idea.

Having a "variable but total equals X" type setup allows for scum to be able to hide in fakeclaims easier as there are multiple possible setups.

If you draw 3 doc and 2 RB with that and scum break apart to claim one RB and one Doc, you cant tell where scum is fakeclaiming because there is no one on one situation.

[IceGuy]

Pick Your Partners

Pre-game

Before the game starts, every player (A) PMs the mod with a number for every other player (B). This number, a whole number between 0 and 10, reflects how much A would like to have B in their team. I.e. 0 = A says "I don't want B in my team at all", 10 = A says "I really want B in my team".

"Teams" are Mafia, Werewolves, Masons, VTs.

After all players have sent in their preferences, a script will select the teams to maximize preferences. If there are several possibilities that are equally good, one will be selected at random.

Setup

3 Mafia Goons (w/o kill, w/ daytalk)
2 Werewolves (w/ kill and daytalk)
2 Masons
6 VTs

[Mr. Flay]

Needs more SK.

[Cheery Dog]

So attempt to lynch everyone you gave a 0?

[IceGuy]

Needs more SK.

I'm not sure whether you're serious.

So attempt to lynch everyone you gave a 0?

I don't understand.