Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[StubbsKVM]

I think you are opening a can of worms with the no lynch. Even of we don't lynch today if mafia get one through we are left with just two lynches to get it right instead of three.

I think the no lynch idea sucks personally, but see if the rest agree.

What he said. No Lynch doesn't get us anywhere

[Nachomamma8]

mmmmmm, fucking hell.

From my perspective, Mafia has a roleblocker and can kill champinoman whenever the hell they want. If I'm lying and am scum, I cannot do anything as long as champinoman targets me. Meaning that I think the best course of action is to allow me to control two more lynches before getting lynched myself unless I am confirmed as town. If champinoman targets me every night, mafia will not be able to kill him without confirming me as town and I as scum need approximately 5 mislynches to win with champinoman blocking me every night, so that's sure as hell not happening ESPECIALLY if I'm lynched after two. Giving me two lynches to work with instead of just one means that scum will have to forgo their kill twice instead of just one, meaning town gets an additional mislynch to work with in order to make up for my eventual mislynch, meaning scum aiming to mislynch me is pretty much zero gain for them.

[Feel It]

Who would you lynch today and tomorrow if it was your choice?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure yet because that will definitely require a reread. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on that plan, though.

[Nachomamma8]

No opinion without me telling you my preferred lynches beforehand, Feel It?

[Mr. Flay]

I need to think further, but believe the plan could work. I'm not sure scumNacho would have a mathematical chance any more...

[Mr. Flay]

Note to self for postgame: tristrbtj

Nacho: why are/were you voting Feel It when you ended up ranking both champino and me higher on your Condorcet list?

[Nachomamma8]

I kneejerk voted Feel It when he was asking people if he wanted to claim and I thought he already did; figured I could get him in a shitty looking reaction. When he responded to my question, he responded immediately and went back to about where he was before.

[StubbsKVM]

Nacho makes a good point. I don't really see any flaws. Anyone else object to this?

[Generic]

I love nachos plan.

For me you get at least today's lynch with the second dependent on how much sense you make today.

But what so we have to lose? If champ or ANYONE dies tonight nacho is cleared, as long as champ targets nacho again.

Can anyone seethe flaw in that plan?

[Feel It]

The only flaw I can see in it is that he could be scum and trying to back himself out of a corner, he knows he's been stopped killing so he's going to appeal to town to kill each other.

[Generic]

And how long can he keep that up for?

He asked for two kills. I have agreed to being willing to follow on one with a view to the second being based on good logic for the first choice.

After two kills if we are two nights more without a kill he is all but guaranteed scum aint he, we have lost 2 people at most (5 players left) and we kill him. Champ is confirmed town so if we get to that point and say he has chosen stubs and feel it to be lynched, we are left with lynching him, and if mafia have played a game to get him lynched the next night champ chooses between flay, me and miss stranger to jail... we go another night without a kill and its a good chance who he chose is the mafia player, and if the mafia has AGAIN not killed we STILL have another lynch available.

If we get all the way down to champ, miss stranger and one other... well, im going way off in to the future,

for now, where is the harm in nachos plan?

[Generic]

If we get to within 24 hours of deadline, I want a name to lynch, between feel it, stubbs and flay... prefer feel it as his contributions haven't been the biggest.

[StubbsKVM]

Well, 4 of you left aside from the three of us.

I suppose it's best to have you 4 come to a majority then.

[Feel It]

Yeah, that's what he SAID, but it gives him 2 more days, 2 more days to potentially steer the town in other directions and fight among itself if. It's harmful to the town because he could be scum, and he knows that champinoman has him by the balls so he's trying to appeal to the town to get kills in other ways. Don't you think it's a big scumtell that champinoman has blocked him twice and we've had zero nightkills so far?

I'm fine with going along with it as long as long as the town makes sure to lynch him on the third day if scum hasn't been found.

[Generic]

So you think in two day phases if he hasn't hit scum and we have two nights of nothing we will NOT kill him cos of infighting?

Wow, feel it first please. Because he seems incapable of sticking to a plan without a person he thinks is scum turning his opinion...

Anyone who isn't going to blindly have their mind controlled want to tell me how nacho if scum can gain an advantage from that plan?

[Generic]

I don't want to desperate out me or miss stranger from it Stubbs. I know I'm town but I can't vouch for miss stranger just because she has seemed a bit more town than others in the scum hunting attempts.

I have 4 in front of me left with varying degrees of scummy.

My definitive scumminess list from most to least:
Feel it,
Stubbs / mr flay,
Miss stranger.

My flay dragged gen wolf up to Stubbs level, both have been more positive than feel it regardless.
And if feel it is scum I will be upset I had it day 2 and listened to others

[Mr. Flay]

I'm fine with going along with it as long as long as the town makes sure to lynch him on the third day if scum hasn't been found.

I can guarantee you I will be on board with that.

Here's the thing: scumNacho has No Way Out, now that he's agreed to be lynched after two tries at finding scum.

1. VRK's ruleset says that the Jailkeeper takes precedence over the Roleblocker, so he can't kill ANYBODY as long as champinoman stays on target.
   
2. So we get two free lynches, and then we kill scum. Lynched Town still win.

But if he's TownNacho, then we have two ConfTown, not just one (again, I'm assuming rational actions here, and a CC would have happened if it was needed).

1. If champino, or in fact a majority of anybody, thinks Nacho's reasoning for who to lynch is crap, we lynch him.
   
2. If Scum get impatient and kill Nacho, or champino, we abandon the plan obviously.
   
3. But given that we're at 6:1 now, even if we mislynch today and tomorrow (out of a pool of 5) and the hidden scum kills one of the ConfTown tomorrow night, we've still got 1 ConfTown and 3 unknowns. MyLo, but with the endgame players of OUR choosing, not scum's.
   
4. If the secret scum waits for us to kill TownNacho on Day 5, then we will lose champino that Night and we're at 2:1 LyLo, again with the players of our choosing. So it's probably worthwhile to do one Nacho-champino-directed lynch and re-evaluate..

So, Nacho? Choice?

[champinoman]

Yeah... Nacho’s plan... /facepalm

Anyways,

The best course of action is a No Lynch. But I do have 2 simple requests of scum.

1) If you are scum Nacho, any chance of sparring us this dragged out process?

2) If Nacho is town then we have a role blocker which essentially means that we have 1 scum and 6 VT left. So, if we no lynch, can you please kill somebody tonight. You will be in exactly the same situation as if we waited anyway except without the delay in play.


And yes, I am jailing Nacho again tonight.

[champinoman]

VRK's ruleset says that the Jailkeeper takes precedence over the Roleblocker, so he can't kill ANYBODY as long as champinoman stays on target.

That's not correct. Roleblocker takes precendence. However, if Nacho is scum then there is no roleblocker anyway so it's irrelevant.

[Feel It]

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Sorry Nacho, but I think I'd prefer to find out today if you're scum over any other player, champinoman jailing you twice with no nightkills speaks pretty loud.

I don't like the no lynch idea either, nothing will happen either way. if nacho is guilty nobody will be killed, and if he's innocent scum will almost certainly no kill, just feels like a waste of time.

[Mr. Flay]

I don't like the no lynch idea either, nothing will happen either way. if nacho is guilty nobody will be killed, and if he's innocent scum will almost certainly no kill

This. Nacho's plan allows some progress - No Lynch ends in (at best) stalemate.

That's not correct. Roleblocker takes precendence. However, if Nacho is scum then there is no roleblocker anyway so it's irrelevant.

. Not true, we could be in Column A. But under VRK's ruleset it doesn't matter.

[champinoman]

I don't like the no lynch idea either, nothing will happen either way. if nacho is guilty nobody will be killed, and if he's innocent scum will almost certainly no kill

This. Nacho's plan allows some progress - No Lynch ends in (at best) stalemate.

Just reread Nacho's post. I had misread it. Let me have a think about it as I'm not sure how I feel about it right now.

That's not correct. Roleblocker takes precendence. However, if Nacho is scum then there is no roleblocker anyway so it's irrelevant.

. Not true, we could be in Column A. But under VRK's ruleset it doesn't matter.

We can't be in column A if Nacho is scum because nobody counter claimed bulletproof. I'm not sure where to find VRK's ruleset but it clearly states in Matrix6 (listed in post #3) that:

Balance Discussion

The Mafia Roleblocker is allowed to both submit the nightkill and perform his Roleblocker action. In addition,

the Roleblocker is stated to resolve before the Jailkeeper.

(This only matters in the case where the Roleblocker and Jailkeeper target one another.)

The Bulletproof Townie's bulletproof cannot be roleblocked, as it is a reflexive action.

Can you please provide a link to VRK's ruleset because I want to understand why a player with your experience has this backwards.

[Mr. Flay]

We can't be in column A if Nacho is scum because nobody counter claimed bulletproof.

Ah good catch.

VRK got it 'backwards' for this game:

If the Mafia Roleblocker is blocked by a Town Jailkeeper then the Roleblocker will receive a PM stating “No Result”.

Mafia Role PM, near the bottom of that post.

[champinoman]

ok, gotcha now. I just wanted to be sure you weren't 'working an angle' with that. And I'm having a rather slow morning in the brain department as outlined in the previous posts. I think we need clarification in case Nacho turns out to be telling the truth.

Vel-Rahn Koon

: Can you please clarify the conflict of information in regards to Jailkeeper Vs Roleblocker. Cheers.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Sorry Nacho, but I think I'd prefer to find out today if you're scum over any other player, champinoman jailing you twice with no nightkills speaks pretty loud.

I don't like the no lynch idea either, nothing will happen either way. if nacho is guilty nobody will be killed, and if he's innocent scum will almost certainly no kill, just feels like a waste of time.

You are overly defensive at the moment. If Nacho is scum then we will win regardless, it'll just take a little bit longer. If he is town then we have avoided a mis-lynch. Even if we replace that with another mis-lynch we are still in a better position. Would you not agree?