Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Grimgroove]

And I have not forgotten how he forgot his scumread on Grimgroove to vote Coug on D1, something that all of you have completely forgotten and ignore.

Oh shit that totally slipped my mind.

Could you clarify how this information is in any way consequential?

[Grimgroove]

Elyse is too confident in Amrun being town.
MAybe she's right.

Side note: totally forgot about this. Grim sees Elyse as WKing Amrun but then drops Elyse suspicions for Qwints when suddenly its one of those 2 Vs him and Amrun isn't allowed?

What? Repeat please in clearer phrasing?

And actually vote parks Amrun with a little theatrics despite being paranoid about that.

You seriously see that as theatrics? Between Elyse-Grim both scum? You're confbiassing now.

I wouldn't be so sure this was from cum

We all come from cum.

if he hadn't just dropped his Elyse herpaderp IN LIGHT OF HIS PREDICTION BEING CORRECT to tunnel on qwints with his former? scumread.

What? Repeat please in clearer phrasing?

I don't understaznd what you are all seeing. My read on Elyse is perfectly clear, in that it is unclear, and has been explained before:

Elyse: This one is really difficult. Probably the most difficult of all of them. I can copy/paste what I said before about this all-knowngness she seems to portray. It just doesn't feel like she's scumhunting. It feels like she already knows how everyone is aligned, and uses this knowledge to her strategical advantage by townreading those in distress and scumreading those who are scumhunting but on the wrong track. Nobody Special was the ideal scum-sacrifice to this end, and Amrun, a close to universal scumread, the perfect buddy. But there is the chance Elyse is simply a far better townplayer than I am and just expects the same qualities from other town, resulting in a genuine scumread on me for failing to live up to these standards. I really don't know. No clue. But I'll lynch her over myself, obviously, so I won't have any qualms to vote her if a majority on qwints is out of the question.

^^ Is this so unsensible?
My only disagreement with Angry Pidgeon is that I'm not so eager to exclude the possibility that Elyse is better at reading people than I am, both in the Amrun and Nobody Special-cases. But I agree that especially in the case of Nobody Special, I found the accuracy of her predction worrying in a way, as I also have pointed out earlier.

But all this time we waste on talking about Elyse, is time not used for talking about qwints, in the shadows for eternity. I'll remind you of my read on him, which has not changed at all either:

qwints: He's my strongest scumread of this current lynchpool. He doesn't really stand out in many ways, even though it's a bit better than Safety Dance. He always seems to go for the easy arguments that are right in front of everybody's noses, without really making the effort of delving too deep or thinking two or three steps ahead. While his arguments against me may seem "sensible" at first sight, they are nothing more but convenient. He's cashing in on doubts I was having near the end of Amrun, doubts that I fully explained and clarified. A lot of his reads revolve around enomis and how people interact with him. Yet enomis didn't flip, and the scumread he has on enomis is backed up by rather superficial argumentation. I wanted to give him slack for arriving in the game late at the start, but he's being lazy and I never truly got the impression he was scumhunting. He stays on the surface and does as much as he can to stay out of the spotlight.

[Grimgroove]

Kidding aside though, I have the impression this game is stuck.
Could the people not currently on the qwints wagon provide reasons for not being there? (as specific as possible)

Qwints feels townish to me. And I strongly doubt he butts heads with me when hes up for lynch as scum and I'm entertaining voting his wagon.

His bit about having notes feels really genuine in hindsight since hes basically auditing himself in the thread and unashamed about any possible inconsistencies spilling his notes could cause down the line if he were scum.
Also, qwints feels different than he did in GoW mafia (I think I may have said that before).

Those are very poor reasons for a townread.
He never referred to his notes again, by the way.
I don't see why scum couldn't be taking notes by the by. And the idea that scum wouldn't butt heads with you is ludicrous in itself, especially in a nightless where scum is pretty much forced to butthead with towjn. They need to get us lynched, remember?
Meh @ meta. I asked qwints straight up if he agreed with his meta being different, and he tactfully ignored it. Which was the worst thing he could have done in my book.

The game has severely slowed down. Majiffy trying to get something going despite this, screams Majiffy being town to me.

This is a really shallow reason to townread someone... 'Screams' town? So anyone posting quote strips screams town to you or is there actually something he was doing that looks town?

Oh hi kettle!
Maybe I'm too generous when saying "screams" rtown, I'll give you that, but this game has gone stale in many ways, and I consider Majiffy's efforts to get Elyse lynched townish.
To put it in your words: his scumhunting "feels genuine".
Is that better?

You are basically saying the both of us are not of the same alignment and using our converging views on a certain matter as an argument that these views must be valuable, given our different alignment.
In order to use this as a factual argument in the way you just did, you truly have to take it for granted we are not from the same alignment. This is more than you simply suspecting me of being scum. This is you KNOWING I don't belong to your alignment. The only way you'd know we're not of the same alignment is when you're scum.

This is some shit. He never said that you being opposite/same alignments matters as all. I'll admit its a little odd that hes voting you and using your read on Elyse to encourage Majiffy to vote you, but thats more likely dumb than scum

This feels like a chainsaw. Qwints had already explained himself appropriately in this regard, your explanation offers no addirtional value, apart from the effort of trying to make me look bad.
I know he never said it literally, but it's how I saw it at the time.

We both had the opportunity to hammer.

This actually makes a ton of sense from a Qwints perspective and I tend to agree. Scum would have way more motivation to hammer town when they can potentially get off w/o being in the lynch pool after doing it.

@Qwints: Ok, so if Elyse is town and Grim is scum why did Grim not hammer? You monologued a bit about why _you_ didn't and of course it involves you being town.

After Elyse's unsatisfactory answer to this and qwints' already trying to use this to get towncred, here's my take on the situation:
My main beef with qwints' argument is that he claims to be confident in being able to convince other that I'm scum. Yet I have seen him do very little effort to do so. Not a single mention of his notes with regards to me for instance (hah).
I think he's doing this to build up towncred + possibly buddy up to Elyse along the way. Elyse's mislynch would make him look worse than my mislynch if he's on the wagon. At least he thinks so.
In my case a switch to Elyse would look far less scummy. I have repeatedly stated I have no idea when it comes to her. Sounds opportunistic? Maybe, I'll leave that up to you, but I didn't hammer.

[Grimgroove]

Qwints: How likely do you think Grim is to flip scum?

I think it's really likely at this point. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

@Qwints: Ok, so if Elyse is town and Grim is scum why did Grim not hammer? You monologued a bit about why _you_ didn't and of course it involves you being town.

Remember that grim wasn't vigorously opposing a hammer, but taking a wishy-washy stance against Elyse as scum. My guess is he thought he could scare me into hammering out of self-preservation. It's also worth pointing out that the pressure was on Elyse and me, not him, while he had the opportunity to hammer.

These are his posts on elyse while the voting is qwints and wisdom on grim, grim on qwints and majiffy on elyse.

Read Elyse's posts. There's an all-knowing aura around her posts, she KNOWS how people will flip, you can sense it from everything she says. She's now trying to cash in on this "all)knowingness" in two ways: towncred + getting me lynched by calling me obvscum.

Elyse: This one is really difficult. Probably the most difficult of all of them. I can copy/paste what I said before about this all-knowngness she seems to portray. It just doesn't feel like she's scumhunting. It feels like she already knows how everyone is aligned, and uses this knowledge to her strategical advantage by townreading those in distress and scumreading those who are scumhunting but on the wrong track. Nobody Special was the ideal scum-sacrifice to this end, and Amrun, a close to universal scumread, the perfect buddy. But there is the chance Elyse is simply a far better townplayer than I am and just expects the same qualities from other town, resulting in a genuine scumread on me for failing to live up to these standards. I really don't know. No clue. But I'll lynch her over myself, obviously, so I won't have any qualms to vote her if a majority on qwints is out of the question.

Then, after Wisdom switches from voting grim to me in 2173 (not counting the early switch he immediately retracted), Elyse becomes a town read:

Not lynching Elyse though, while ISO'ing her in this process I stumbled upon 1993 again and I have to say, they don't make posts townier than that. I made a similar statement about that before, and reading it again now it's amazing how this post influences my read on her.
She's just town on the wrong track.

A switch that doesn't stop him giving other reasons for Elyse to be scum as the Elyse wagon forms.

So grim would have been happy with an Elyse lynch since he could get his town cred from an Elyse flip while staying alive. He wouldn't that towncred by hammering her, and since I had more pressure than he did, he was probably hoping I would hammer someone he knew was a townie, which he could use to line up my mislynch next.

Damn, had missed that post.
That was actually quite an impressive hypothesis, hard to spot the mistakes. But they're there And I found them
But your entire case revolved around my read on Elyse changing as soon as I see Wisdom votes you. This is wrong. Post 1993 had screamed town to me way earlier than that.

Two quotes I want to pick out specifically from this post:

My guess is he thought he could scare me into hammering out of self-preservation. It's also worth pointing out that the pressure was on Elyse and me, not him, while he had the opportunity to hammer.

This argument betrays your scummy mindset. This isn't about how I think about you, this is about how you think about yourself.
Only scum would be hammering a townread of them out of self-preservation. The fact you, as town, are not thinking of this in these terms, confirms my scumread on you.
Your hypothesis doesn't make any sense: I, as scum, would know you're town, and would know you would not be hammering out of self-preservation. It's only if I think you're scum I would hold you capable of doing that. And I could only think you're scum if either I'm in your scumteam or if I'm town.

Linking my stance on Elyse to the pressure that is on me was very clever, but without real basis.

[Grimgroove]

I forgot the second quote:

Qwints: How likely do you think Grim is to flip scum?

I think it's really likely at this point. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

As I already said, I find this statement incredibly irksome. I realize that from your PoV this seems sensible, but from mine it screams (:mrgreen:) scum to me. Especially the "at this pint" part. It somehow implies there has been a boatload of extra arguments against me compared to a certain moment earlier in time, but there hasn't.
And the second sentence skillfully combines an portrayal of someone who's convinced about my scumflip but simultaneuosly covering himself already. Such skillfull formulations make me think they are too intricate to have come naturally to him.

[Grimgroove]

Any developments in the green qt?

[Grimgroove]

Given that I'mh ere by myself, I'll give you the developments of the Silver-QT. As StrangerCoug's request ended up not being an AtE in the end, I did as he asked and posted some of my thoughts.
Maybe he asked me to do this for a reason. In a way I think I can use this to my advantage into convincing you that I'm town, because in the QT I've posted my internal thinking processes that didn't really have a place here in their entirety, but show my genuine struggle.
You could of course think I'm trolling the already dead StrangerCoug, but that's basically the same as saying you think I'm an asshole.

There's a total of 27 posts in my QT right now, post 18 is the first one after StrangerCoug's flip.

18: telling SC I'll continue posting as he asked, that I feel stupid after his lynch, that I still think Wisdom is scum. I say that if Wisdom turns out not be scum, I'll sheep my way through the rest of the game. I was obviously quite convinced Wisdom was scum at the time.
19: some self-pity tantrum about me having joined this kind of game too early in my mafiascum-processs, where I'm feel like I'm being manipulated left an right and how I'm unable to get any clear reads, as opposed to other players who seemingly have less problems with it (I guess I was referring to Majiffy specifcally at the time, but no names were added). I say I'm basing my reads on how people read me and itneract with me, and decide this will be the best way to go. Hence my scumread on Wisdom. Then I proceed to say I'll probably sheep my strognest townread, being pirate_mollie at that time.
20: Statement about me thinking Wisdom, Angry Pidgeon, Amrun and Elyse are my scumreads.
21: An apparent "aha-erlebnis" must have occurred in the topic,b ecause here I say that Wisdom is town after all.
22: Here I change my mind again on Wisdom, questioning my own arguments for thinking he's town (don't remember what these arguments were, should compare the times), and complaining about the fact I can't produce any strong argument. I start a thinking trajectory based on a fear that it's the lurkers who are scum (notably Safety Dance and Nobody Special) and call them pre-emptively lame for trying to win the game in this way in case they are. Some more self-pity about having to have been the one to be mislynched considering my poor town-play, and some criticism on townplay in general because of nitpicking and an atmosphere in the topic that doesn't seem to hint at an eventual town-win.
23: Excitement over thinking I found Amrun's scumslip, and calling Wisdom probably scum in the process, though I'm not as convinced about him. Contrasting with 22, here I have a strong sense of self-belief in having caught Amrun, and imagine myself getting credit for lynching scum in the future, making up for my poor performance earlier.
24: My self-belief has faded, and I am beginning to think Amrun could be town after all. I say that if she isn't scum, I won't know how to move forward in this game anymore. I express fear of being lynched over an Amrun townflip. I state Wisdom as my townread, and express frustration that this is the only information I got after 80 pages.
25: Scumread on Majiffy, but reluctance to call him out because I think it will just end up in me being lynched because I'd be challenging a close to universal townread. Saying Majiffy-enomis in a team is certainly possible.
26: I see Majiffy - qwints - Angry Pidgeon in a team here.
27: I confirm what I said in 26, three days later.

There you have it.

[Wisdom]

I don't like your sudden desire to stop the scumreads on enomis.

[Grimgroove]

That was a terrible summary of things. Terrible.

[Wisdom]

Well that's what I got. I didn't read most of what you posted though.

[Grimgroove]

I don't stop scumreading enomis, but I stop to think whether this enomis-consensus isn't reached a bit too easily. He hasn't been here for more than 6 days, so instead of him having made himself more suspicious, it is obvious that we've all been convincing each other that he's scum, by merely repeating that he is. This is potentially dangerous because potentially steered by the real scum.
He's not in the lynchpool anyway, so it's quite surprising there is so much talk about someone who's 1. not here, 2. not in the current lynchpool.
Something feels off.

[Wisdom]

No, nothing feels off.
The lynchpool you created is crap, and we have to scumhunt for the real scum until we're forced to lynch someone from this crap.

[Grimgroove]

Spare me your unconstructive criticism, by the time you make up your mind about anything, this game is over.

[Grimgroove]

And this proves my point:

If Orange challenge you against the town's will, we'll just lynch whoever does it.

I want red vs green or orange vs green.

You wanted green in the lynchpool more than any other team before I challenged.
Now you suddenly say this lynchpool is crap.

[Wisdom]

I don't see silver vs green in there

[Grimgroove]

You're basically judging my move to challenge Green based on information we got only more than a week later.
When there would have been Green vs Orange like you suggested, you'd probably be equally gutted over the lynchpool considering you suddenly have townreads on Orange as well.

Besides, I thought you scumread qwints? So how is this lynchpool shit? You get to lynch scum.

[Wisdom]

I scumread enomis and Jiffy much more. I am not even sure if I want to lynch qwints.

[Grimgroove]

Once your main scumreads are in the lynchpool I wouldn't put it past you to start second-guessing about them as well. All I'm saying is you shouldn't give me shit over choosing this lynchpool as long as you're not able to make up your mind yourself. That is all.

[Wisdom]

Yeah except I may have second-guessed one million times but I never challenged anyone <- this directly affects the game, my secondguessing doesn't.

[Grimgroove]

Challenge-situations produce information. Eternal second-guessing doesn't.

[Wisdom]

Information and mislynches.

[qwints]

Some quick responses to grim's walling
1) The notes were a one time thing taken during my re-read. I definitely overstated the extent of my notes in my first reference, which I made clear in response to Wisdom's probing on the subject. I have not been taking notes since that initial re-read.
2) Self-meta is always bullshit. The games I've played are on my wiki, and I've played with several of the people in here before. I'll be glad to point out games that fit a certain criteria if anyone wants to look, but I don't see a point in my describing my own play.
3) Elyse and I's QT has been quiet. Since elyse's description, elyse commented that she thought amrun was town and grim was scum and that enomis was the best lynch from that lynchpool. I've said that AP's hammer seemed scummy and asked her what she thought of enomis's sudden activity before the challenge today. She re-affirmed her scum-read of enomis and has complained about how the game is going.

Meanwhile, let me restate the main reason I think grim is scum right now (which, despite the fact that grim replied to it, hasn't gotten enough scrutiny)

Grim was voting NS. He repeatedly said that NS was a good vote. But he got off the wagon as soon as it picked up steam, and then got back on once it appeared inevitable. Look at these posts, four hours apart:

I believe sticking with NS for now is better.

Do you think AP made up his RL story?

You sound frustrated you're being bereft of an almost certain mislynch because of reasons you don't like.

But just because you don't like the reasons, doesn't mean they're not valid.

And they are. Not only Majiffy's logic convinced me (I was thinknig along the same lines anyway when it comes to that), but also A's description of what was going on sounds too genuine to be fake. There's no way you can't see that.

I'm going to move my vote back on to you, because of this obvious disappointment you're enduring. If you're town, you should be happy there were arguments brought forward that make AP very very town.

VOTE: Wisdom

He then unvotes Wisdom in 1146, and says that we need more from NS, BUT DOESN'T REVOTE NS. Why? BECAUSE THERE'S NOW A CHANCE NS MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THE LYNCH. Even though, his original reasoning for voting NS was to get more from NS. See 886 and 895.

He only goes back to voting NS to place the L-1 vote with his tough sounding post that lined up the Amrun mislynch:

Fine, I'll take you AtE.
I obviously did not read your game again, I might as well start reading the Bible, but pff, I thought about it.
I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse if you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair.
So yeah, congrats, your AtE worked.
But I still think your play vis-à-vis Amrun has been very dubious. I hope you agree she is the next one to lynch and won't be throwing around any wild scenraios again just to make her seem town somehow. She is obvscum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

This is

L-1

.

I do think last words from Nobody Special are in order.

What's different now that makes him vote (read: bus) NS? There are no other viable options, with only one (1) vote anywhere else.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grim

fuck that I'm going with enomis/Majiffy/Grim

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grim

fuck that I'm going with enomis/Majiffy/Grim

READ EVERYTHING BEFORE VOTING ME!!!!!

Jesus...

Qwints just rehashed an ancient case that I've debunked 500 times already.

Read 2381 in particular. I can't imagine anyone thinking I made that kind of stuff up.

[Wisdom]

Yeh I'm sick of your "debunking". You're quite obviously prefectly capable of doing it, so it does not mean much for me anymore.