Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

champinoman · Post Post #625 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:14 pm

Well now that everyone has posted (with the exception of MS) I will share my opinion on the matter.

I think that it is a

TERRIBLE

idea to lynch Nacho today. Why would be be lynching someone who might be confirmed town during N4?

But before that; here's what we know for sure:

- If nacho is scum, this is a town victory. Period.
- If nacho is town then we need to keep him alive for as long as possible. So lynching him last is the best way to do it even if it drags this game out a little. Remember, we don't need to use the full 2 weeks if we don't want to.

So from this point onwards everyone should be posting as if Nacho is confTown. There is no need to confuse the issue by constantly bringing up the chance that Nacho is scum.

My take on last night: It reveals nothing. A stupid scum will have no-killed, a smart scum will have roleblocked me and targeted Nacho in order to eliminate his bulletproof ability. They lose nothing by doing this and probably hope we do something stupid and lynch Nacho.

champinoman · Post Post #626 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:15 pm

In post 619, Generic wrote:Agree with flay, but leaning more towards doing it to free up champ.

Can you please explain what you mean by "free up champ"?

Generic · Post Post #627 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:14 pm

If you are jailing nacho and he ISN'T mafia then you get the chance to block the actual mafia.

I thought it was fairly obvious given currently you are holding on nacho while we aren't sure of his township.

Generic · Post Post #628 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:15 pm

So are we killing nacho now or giving him a second lynch choice?

Right now I'm concerned we could dnf up losing still after the best possible start.

Generic · Post Post #629 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Btw, I'm happy with lunching Stubbs based in his comment about flay, and then if he isn't mafia go for nacho the next day. If by some miracle we end up at 3 left I will favour the flag lynch over miss strangers replacement...

So that's my current list:

Town -
champ
Miss stranger
Mr flay
Nacho
Stubbs
- scum

Generic · Post Post #630 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:20 pm

And that's me done here for a while as I travel, I will happily hammer on either Stubbs or nacho but we are in no rush do sort of our amongst yourselves and I will look at it when I return.

StubbsKVM · Post Post #631 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:49 pm

In post 623, Generic wrote:Oh, and I should point out, had I been mafia champ would be dead right now. That would have put us currently at 5 left with only nacho confirmed, and with a status of being seen as town by most I would only need to create two mislynches out of three of you.

This is actually pointless.
You can say whatever you want.

I was against a massclaim and I still stand behind that.

So now you want to Lynch me for doubting you, Generic?
If Nacho flips town, you really need rope. So don't worry, if you are indeed town.

StubbsKVM · Post Post #632 (ISO) » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:57 pm

I've just reread a part of generics ISO.

Only one post about Antagon(the one in your reads list)
Then you vote your gut scumread Nacho. When Antagon then puts Nacho at L-1, you switch to Antagon. Then Feel it complains and you switch to feel it.

It looks like you tried to bus Antagon first, because he was going down anyway. Then you switch to feel it, because you saw a chance to save your scumbuddy.

Also, that comment about 3 scum feels forced.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and it's still nacho

champinoman · Post Post #633 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:53 am

So I make a comment asking nobody to bother discussing Nacho as scum and both people who post comment on Nacho being scum.

STOP MUDDYING THE WATERS!!!!

In post 627, Generic wrote:If you are jailing nacho and he ISN'T mafia then you get the chance to block the actual mafia.

I thought it was fairly obvious given currently you are holding on nacho while we aren't sure of his township.

It's not obvious because if nacho is town then my ability is pointless because I'll be roleblocked. I'm effectively a VT in that case. So I'm happy to leave it on Nacho.

In post 628, Generic wrote:So are we killing nacho now or giving him a second lynch choice?

Right now I'm concerned we could dnf up losing still after the best possible start.

Look at the pure math. We lose nothing by leaving the lynch until tomorrow. In fact, we gain the opinion of a 2nd confTown.

btw, how long are you away on holidays?

Vel-Rahn Koon · Post Post #634 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:10 am

Finding a replacement for Ms. Stranger.

Vote Count 4.1

Not Voting - 6 (champinoman, Generic, Miss Stranger, Mr. Flay, Nachomamma8, StubbsKVM)

4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-08-11 07:00:00)

[/b].

Mr. Flay · Post Post #635 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:45 am

In post 633, champinoman wrote:It's not obvious because if nacho is town then my ability is pointless because I'll be roleblocked.

This STILL isn't true. Jailkeep STILL overrides Roleblocker in this setup, under VRK's ruleset. Try to keep up.

Metagame, I feel like Nacho would have conceded last night if he was Mafia. But that is by no means a sure thing. I'd still prefer to lynch somebody else, decided on by champino and Nacho, today.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #636 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:44 am

If all goes well today, my laptop will be fixed and I will be posting up a storm tonight. A massive, terrifying storm. I will say that I'm leaning towards a Generic lynch at the moment, but will have a big analysis post later today regardless of whether it will be posted from my laptop or my girlfriend's laptop.

champinoman · Post Post #637 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:29 pm

In post 635, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 633, champinoman wrote:It's not obvious because if nacho is town then my ability is pointless because I'll be roleblocked.
This STILL isn't true. Jailkeep STILL overrides Roleblocker in this setup, under VRK's ruleset. Try to keep up.

ok, I've reread everything multiple times this morning and this is what I have found:

According to VRK's ruleset we had the following:
A link to matrix6 that clearly states the roleblocker wins any conflict with jailkeeper.

The mafia role PM stated the jailkeeper wins any conflict with roleblocker.

<-- VRK removed this after our discussion.

So, according to the ruleset, roleblocker wins.

However,

In post 580, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 579, Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:When I updated my rules set for the Matrix6 setup, I forgot to take NAR into account (which is where the rule in the wiki for Matrix6 comes from). Now that I'm thinking about it that rule is pointless, because a Roleblocker shouldn't/wouldn't get a result back stating whether his block action was successful.

I'm taking the line out from the Roleblocker sample PM. Thanks for catching it!
...uhhh, okay. Since you're confirming the ruleset, does the RB still lose ties to the JK?

Yes. According to NAR, all blocking actions take precedence over protection actions. Sorry for the confusion

-Vel

You asked if the RoleBlocker loses to the Jailkeeper and VRK said Yes.
But in the same breath said that blocking actions take precedence over protection actions. Doesn't this mean the Roleblocker (blocking) beats Jailkeeper (Protection)??

So you can understand my confusion here.

Vel-Rahn Koon??

Vel-Rahn Koon · Post Post #638 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:00 pm

Oh for the love of GOD!!!

Ok, let me try to unfuck this mess I've made. The statement in response to Flay that champ quotes in 637 is both wrong and right.

The Yes should be a NO

. Both NAR and the Matrix6 setup specifically state that blocking actions take precedence BEFORE protection actions. So in this reply to Flay's question:

In post 580, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 579, Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:When I updated my rules set for the Matrix6 setup, I forgot to take NAR into account (which is where the rule in the wiki for Matrix6 comes from). Now that I'm thinking about it that rule is pointless, because a Roleblocker shouldn't/wouldn't get a result back stating whether his block action was successful.

I'm taking the line out from the Roleblocker sample PM. Thanks for catching it!
...uhhh, okay. Since you're confirming the ruleset, does the RB still lose ties to the JK?

Yes. According to NAR, all blocking actions take precedence over protection actions. Sorry for the confusion

-Vel

I misread "RB still loses ties to the JK" as "JK still loses ties to the RB". The YES would apply to the way I read it. NO applies to the way Flay wrote the question.

so, ignoring the yes/no bit:

OFFICIAL RULE: ALL BLOCKING ACTIONS TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER PROTECTION ACTIONS. THIS IS DICTATED BOTH BY NAR AND BY THE MATRIX6 RULES SET.

So if there is a Roleblocker and a Jailkeeper, and the RB and JK target one another, the Roleblocker will block the Jailkeeper's jailing attempt and the RB can still perform his kill.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #639 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:01 pm

Okay, thank you!

Mr. Flay · Post Post #640 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:17 pm

So that being said, half my analysis goes out the fucking window. Nacho is either what he says he is (BP), or he's a Goon (not RB), and champino has saved us all (and we win whenever we lynch Nacho). If he's what he says he is, champino is useless. Problem is we won't know until Nacho flips...

Not sure I like Nacho floating the idea of a Generic lynch. It looks kinda like going after the guy who is AFK. Stubbs 632 is interesting but I wasn't here D1 so I don't have the same sense of the flow that you guys do. Why is it that everyone who WAS here was extending a whole plateful of Townie Brownies to Generic until very recently? I'm confused, which will be read by some as scummy I'm sure.

champinoman · Post Post #641 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:57 pm

Thanks VRK. That was nice and confusing for a while

In post 635, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 633, champinoman wrote:Metagame, I feel like Nacho would have conceded last night if he was Mafia. But that is by no means a sure thing.
I'm not so sure. If it were me I'd be targeting the JailKeeper every night that I'm still alive in the hope he tries to be too smart for his own good and jails someone else. Then once the Jailkeeper is dead you have tricked everyone else in to believing you are confTown because he was supposedly jailing you.

In post 621, StubbsKVM wrote:TAs for my not being around, I was around. I just didn't think it was up to me to hammer feel it.
Did you not agree with our lynch choice?

In post 640, Mr. Flay wrote:So that being said, half my analysis goes out the fucking window. Nacho is either what he says he is (BP), or he's a Goon (not RB), and champino has saved us all (and we win whenever we lynch Nacho). If he's what he says he is, champino is useless. Problem is we won't know until Nacho flips...

So we should treat the game as 2 confTown with no PR Vs 1 scum.

champinoman · Post Post #642 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:59 pm

Lets try that again:

-----------------------

Thanks VRK. That was nice and confusing for a while

In post 635, Mr. Flay wrote:Metagame, I feel like Nacho would have conceded last night if he was Mafia. But that is by no means a sure thing. I'd still prefer to lynch somebody else, decided on by champino and Nacho, today.

I'm not so sure. If it were me I'd be targeting the JailKeeper every night that I'm still alive in the hope he tries to be too smart for his own good and jails someone else. Then once the Jailkeeper is dead you have tricked everyone else in to believing you are confTown because he was supposedly jailing you.

In post 621, StubbsKVM wrote:TAs for my not being around, I was around. I just didn't think it was up to me to hammer feel it.

Did you not agree with our lynch choice?

In post 640, Mr. Flay wrote:So that being said, half my analysis goes out the fucking window. Nacho is either what he says he is (BP), or he's a Goon (not RB), and champino has saved us all (and we win whenever we lynch Nacho). If he's what he says he is, champino is useless. Problem is we won't know until Nacho flips...

So we should treat the game as 2 confTown with no PR Vs 1 scum.

StubbsKVM · Post Post #643 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:55 pm

I did, I just felt the "town block" needed to agree on it

Who's your second conftown?

Generic · Post Post #644 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:28 pm

You can lynch me, but considering I have been one of the more proactive players in the fake all you do is hand scum a fighting chance at a win.

But I can't tell you to write me off as town, why is it any different than me flay writing himself off or Stubbs.

All I know is of I work on champs theory flay or Stubbs is last scum.

Oh and champ, why would the role blocker block you to kill nacho? If you are.blocked and there is a mafia roleblocker then nacho is bulletproof. So basically nacho is going to survive the night whether you jail him or not.

Generic · Post Post #645 (ISO) » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:35 pm

Fake = game

Vel-Rahn Koon · Post Post #646 (ISO) » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:14 pm

Karnage replaces Ms. Stranger.

Karnage · Post Post #647 (ISO) » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:16 pm

Hey guys, I will get caught up and post my thoughts in a couple of hours.

Karnage · Post Post #648 (ISO) » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 pm

So I've read the thread and my top scum choice is Mr Flay with Nacho 2nd. Champ is confirmed town and I feel pretty good about generic and stubbs as town.

If nacho isn't scum then there is a RB which negates champ's JK. Which means either scum targeted the BP or no killed. Neither seems to make much sense since I would think scum would just kill the JK to remove a confirmed townie or they could have easily killed a VT without bothering with the BP. Besides WIFOM, is there anything to gain by not killing last night?

If nacho is scum it means there is no RB so champ can continue to safely JK him until lylo.

I'm leaning toward a Mr Flay lynch but we have a lot of time left in the day to work this through.

champinoman · Post Post #649 (ISO) » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:18 pm

In post 644, Generic wrote:Oh and champ, why would the role blocker block you to kill nacho? If you are.blocked and there is a mafia roleblocker then nacho is bulletproof. So basically nacho is going to survive the night whether you jail him or not.

In post 648, Karnage wrote:Besides WIFOM, is there anything to gain by not killing last night?

Well the 1 reason I can think of for mafia not to kill last night would be to eliminate the bulletproof PR from the game. If I was blocked and Nacho was targeted then he is now a VT because he is only a 1 shot bulletproof. It allows for more flexibility later in the game.