Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[thezmon221]

notscience is Innocent Child
Venmar is PGO

I see there's a wagon on TP. Someone give me a case while I read through?

I played a game with mastin (town), and I don't remember him being passive. But then again, my meta on him is unreliable since it was only one game. And I think he died early anyways.

[ffullisade]

I'm talking about you telling people things like don't worry you can sort so and so trust your read.

It takes people varying lengths of time to get decent reads on someone, and even when you feel comfortable about their alignment, it's a further question mark whether to trust that their reads - today - in this game - are good. Patt of "good" is usually defined as "agrees with mine" or "makes sense to me".

You are expecting it to be baked into a game about 12 hours in with a bunch of players not having posted or having posted minimal amounts.

I get into cat-herding mode pretty easily so I know what you're doing. It's really early though and there's a lot more data to gather.

hhhmmmm...I thought the only person I said that about was nacho.

I certainly don't want venny to trust my read on td if anything if I were to get paranoid at this point I would suspect those 2 doing a scum theatre gambit. I

would

like venny to look elsewhere too tho instead of focusing on just 1 player. the reason being cos I think venny has a kick-ass off the charts nose for scum he just sometimes gets distracted by shiny things. d2 in red wedding he had 3 of the scum team read, he was hitting it in xeno and knocking it out of the ballpark in reign of flames. his reasons for voting td don't make sense to me and just don't sound like town venny and yet I wanna say he is town.

also cabd I feel like need to give you some love so here it is <3<3<3<3<3

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I'm talking about you telling people things like don't worry you can sort so and so trust your read.

It takes people varying lengths of time to get decent reads on someone, and even when you feel comfortable about their alignment, it's a further question mark whether to trust that their reads - today - in this game - are good. Patt of "good" is usually defined as "agrees with mine" or "makes sense to me".

You are expecting it to be baked into a game about 12 hours in with a bunch of players not having posted or having posted minimal amounts.

I get into cat-herding mode pretty easily so I know what you're doing. It's really early though and there's a lot more data to gather.

hhhmmmm...I thought the only person I said that about was nacho.

I certainly don't want venny to trust my read on td if anything if I were to get paranoid at this point I would suspect those 2 doing a scum theatre gambit. I

would

like venny to look elsewhere too tho instead of focusing on just 1 player. the reason being cos I think venny has a kick-ass off the charts nose for scum he just sometimes gets distracted by shiny things. d2 in red wedding he had 3 of the scum team read, he was hitting it in xeno and knocking it out of the ballpark in reign of flames. his reasons for voting td don't make sense to me and just don't sound like town venny and yet I wanna say he is town.

also cabd I feel like need to give you some love so here it is <3<3<3<3<3

whoops that was me

[Sound of Silence]

I'm talking about you telling people things like don't worry you can sort so and so trust your read.

It takes people varying lengths of time to get decent reads on someone, and even when you feel comfortable about their alignment, it's a further question mark whether to trust that their reads - today - in this game - are good. Patt of "good" is usually defined as "agrees with mine" or "makes sense to me".

You are expecting it to be baked into a game about 12 hours in with a bunch of players not having posted or having posted minimal amounts.

I get into cat-herding mode pretty easily so I know what you're doing. It's really early though and there's a lot more data to gather.

hhhmmmm...I thought the only person I said that about was nacho.

I certainly don't want venny to trust my read on td if anything if I were to get paranoid at this point I would suspect those 2 doing a scum theatre gambit. I

would

like venny to look elsewhere too tho instead of focusing on just 1 player. the reason being cos I think venny has a kick-ass off the charts nose for scum he just sometimes gets distracted by shiny things. d2 in red wedding he had 3 of the scum team read, he was hitting it in xeno and knocking it out of the ballpark in reign of flames. his reasons for voting td don't make sense to me and just don't sound like town venny and yet I wanna say he is town.

also cabd I feel like need to give you some love so here it is <3<3<3<3<3

I think you said something similar about Mac, but maybe it was more "I don't trust anyone else's read on Mac" except mine.

[Sound of Silence]

notscience is Innocent Child
Venmar is PGO

I see there's a wagon on TP. Someone give me a case while I read through?

I played a game with mastin (town), and I don't remember him being passive. But then again, my meta on him is unreliable since it was only one game. And I think he died early anyways.

Majiffy did some vote count analysis on that wagon. Iso B&B and you should be able to find it.

Re Mastin I have one completed game with him. He was scum in that game. It was a micro and 8 of the 9 players knew each other extremely well. Half the player list was townreading each other by page 5 or so. The scum team didn't have much room to hide. He came off confident sounding in the thread but I think the game was pretty nightmarish for the scum team.

He's not reminding me of that game at all.

[zMuffinMan]

People I'm not lynching today: venmar, notscience, mac, sound of silence
People maybe town but not completely sure: beautyandthebeast, ghostlin, nickthename, trustfund

If mastin is town, this is the first game i've seen him read me incorrectly from my initial posting. but I don't really think he's town atm so that doesn't particularly matter to me.
BRO is probably scum, there was a wall somewhere on like p8 that made me think this. The next post about scum on the TD wagon and no effort to do anything about it pretty much solidified this.

The speed with which the TD wagon built up is

not

a sign that he's town, or even likely town. It's null at best, and I'm sure as fuck not going to discount his play just because his wagon built up quickly. Off the top of my head, Ghostlin should remember the shit position town got put in when the whole town thought this exact same thing on D1 of Cyclic x02 - it made for a very easy scum win. The point being; judge his play, and the play of the people voting him, not the fucking speed of the wagon.

I think someone asked me a question some pages back about why I voted TD before he answered my question. The answer is, "why the fuck not?" It was a better place to put my vote than where it currently was for RVS reasons, and I pretty much told you why I voted TD in my next post anyway, so this kind of seems like a dumb question.

I'm skimming a lot of these posts, so if I missed any questions, meh. I might go back and read this thread closely when I have time and see what else I can find in the first 20 pages, but these are my basic thoughts on the game so far.

[thezmon221]

Done reading.

Notes:

That TD wagon was a shitstorm. It blew up so quickly on something that looks legit town-AtE. If you've got a vote on him, I suggest you take it off and put it in a better place.

Here's my reads for now. All scum reads are weak. Most of the town reads are weak, but there's a few (like BatB and Aj) which are stronger.

Spoiler:

TOWN

Venmar
Notscience
BatB
Trust Fund
Sound of Silence
Mac
Aj The Epic
TiphaineDeath
zMuffinMan

NULL

Nachomamma8
Andrius
BROseidon
Desperado
Skullduggery
mastin2
Ghostlin

SCUM

FTL
Nhammen
RachMarie
nickthename

Yes, I expected TD to be rational and calm. See AJ's day two last game, etc. Admittedly, I'll need to go grab some towngames of his to get a baseline, before actually calling for L-1/hammer/etc.

I have a good grasp on his meta. We’re from the same offsite.

Anyways... for my vote, I will be picking:

VOTE: Faster than Light
Post 53 is massively useless speculation. All it comprises of are comments that really are either:
A) Common Sense
B) Just plain redundant/retarded.

Posts 54 and 99 comprise the massively cliché approach of “reaction test.” Like seriously, once realized that Venmar wasn’t getting lynched, FTL jumped off and… wait for it… onto the TD wagon. Which is also on the rise.

Posts 243/255 sound a lot to me like someone desperate for towncred.

The speed with which the TD wagon built up is

not

a sign that he's town, or even likely town. It's null at best, and I'm sure as fuck not going to discount his play just because his wagon built up quickly. Off the top of my head, Ghostlin should remember the shit position town got put in when the whole town thought this exact same thing on D1 of Cyclic x02 - it made for a very easy scum win. The point being; judge his play, and the play of the people voting him, not the fucking speed of the wagon.

The speed is not my concern. The reasoning is. His AtE isn't exactly something to go ahead and quicklynch over. Sure, he might be scum, but not with the case that's been given.

I like this overall post, though. You can be town.

[zMuffinMan]

I agree. AtE isn't a reason to lynch someone over. But I think the way in which he handled the votes was bad, and I think if he were town, he'd at least try to show that he's town rather than whine and AtE.

I also still hold that his initial post about the PGO looked really, really fake, for reasons that have been listed by several posters.

Point me to posts that gave you scum reads on nickthename, rachmarie and nhammen.

[zMuffinMan]

I would also like to note that BRO still isn't voting anyone, and after his claim about scum on the TD wagon, I at least think he would try get some momentum going on a scum read of his if he were actually town.

If the TD wagon dies, I'll move to BRO.

[Aj The Epic]

I think he has nick for the same reason I did: His first vote was really bad (onto Venmar) and the one onto Mac wasn't explained immediately. Sure, with Venmar, he's simply wrong on how you play PGO (Venmar is right, you claim negative utility roles immediately... barring Miller which is just a weird role). His vote onto TD was "WTF is this shit", not strong reasoning at all... in fact, never any real reason supplied for this vote but to help a wagon that was just about to kind of die out continue on. I don't really mind his case on Mac AFTER he posts it, I simply think it should've been explained with the vote before letting it fall later down. He proceeds to do something I consider anti-town: His case justified his vote, not his vote justifying his case. Meaning he didn't look for a case until AFTER he decided to vote for Mac.

(And that's because someone wanted this earlier when I couldn't be bothered)

P-edit: Newsflash: TD wagon is dead.

[thezmon221]

I was under the impression he had a bad fit of crumbling under pressure in such instances. Especially in a quick-lynch scenario such as this.

Like I said, my scum reads are pretty weak. As such, here’s short reasoning for each of the players.

Nickthename:

His is more of a conflict-of-interest type read. I view Mac as pretty town-like, and I’m not a big fan of his case on Mac in post 272. Plus, he was delayed in his reasoning for Mac. It seems a bit like a fit-the-evidence-for-the-read shnindig.

Not to mention, he voted for Venmar for his PGO claim, then quickly changed his vote to TD, in a similar kind of feel to FTL’s hop from one to the other… The reasoning for TD was poor, at best (Post 102).

I do like some of his posts, but those two pointers outweighed what I viewed as town.

Nhammen:

That was a mistake. Not sure why I had him on my scum list. I think I viewed your vote on TD, and somehow put his name on. He should be under “null.”

RachMarie:

To me, it looks like all of her posts are manufactured. ESPECIALLY Post 211. ESPECIALLY this quote right here:

Besides his reaction to Venmar's claim is there even a case on TD? Something other than oh he was scum last time please.

Post 409 does not set too well with me either.

PEDIT: MuffinMan you break my heart. Get off of TD and pursue a real scum read, please. TD's a bad wagon.

[zMuffinMan]

@Aj,

I thought the WTF is this shit post looked more town than scum. "Strong reasoning" isn't necessarily a town trait. I thought his reaction was more natural, thus more likely town. The Venmar vote I didn't really care about. If anything though, I think the reasoning he gave for the Venmar vote looked more town than TD's initial reaction to it.

I skimmed over all the rest of his posts, so I can't really comment on the rest of it (thus, asking to be pointed to specific posts). If a nick wagon actually builds up, I'll review his ISO, but for now I don't care about him.

@thezmon,

I'll look over rachmarie in a bit, she's one of the posters I've skimmed over and not really paid attention to.

[zMuffinMan]

OK, yeah, RachMarie is scum, too.

#66 was pretty much all IIoA and then ended with "time for content" which was kind of ironic.

Rest of her posts are not any better.

Literally zero content, no votes so far, no reads (as far as I can tell).

If a RachMarie wagon starts I'll sheep that.

I'll read FTL soon and tell you what I think of that wagon because I don't remember thinking anything about his alignment from what I've read.

[Aj The Epic]

I never quite understood the TD wagon. This isn't TD's scum game that I saw last game (and proceeded to get lynched for my opinion on it). He's playing completely out of sync with it. He was a subtly more opportunistic than he is here. Seeing as most of the players are returning, I don't quite understand why that wagon ever built up. Hence, I do believe B&B were right with the idea to analyze that wagon... I just wish they'd come with a more solid result. Blades was a short time ago, enough that everyone should be able to do their own meta memory check on TD to recognize that this is a completely different play-style for him.

FTL mine as well be scum. I can spoiler this sentence if need be, Muffin... Varsoons post to Nhm was awful and he's the reasonable one of that hydra.

[Sound of Silence]

AJ town. I think GiF was ahead of me on that call.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

AJ town. I think GiF was ahead of me on that call.

yeah

[Ghostlin]

Mastin's being passive, but he's being Town passive. The difference? He's not keeping his options open and is admitting he's clueless rather than hedging his bets on this or that wagon.

FTL's early posts read like every other game I've played with MS, and Varshoon actually seems muted and reasonable this game. Am I wrong is in this, and is that his scum meta (which I didn't get to see in the first Xeno game.)

SoS, BnB; why is AJ town? Maybe I'm piss poor at reading him, but he seems off. Like passively off to me.

I'm fairly secure at this point Muffin's town.

Where the fuck is Nacho?

[Ghostlin]

Also, Andrius. Get your butts in here, guys. We've got scum to hunt.

[Ghostlin]

I'm talking about you telling people things like don't worry you can sort so and so trust your read.

It takes people varying lengths of time to get decent reads on someone, and even when you feel comfortable about their alignment, it's a further question mark whether to trust that their reads - today - in this game - are good. Patt of "good" is usually defined as "agrees with mine" or "makes sense to me".

You are expecting it to be baked into a game about 12 hours in with a bunch of players not having posted or having posted minimal amounts.

I get into cat-herding mode pretty easily so I know what you're doing. It's really early though and there's a lot more data to gather.

hhhmmmm...I thought the only person I said that about was nacho.

I certainly don't want venny to trust my read on td if anything if I were to get paranoid at this point I would suspect those 2 doing a scum theatre gambit. I

would

like venny to look elsewhere too tho instead of focusing on just 1 player. the reason being cos I think venny has a kick-ass off the charts nose for scum he just sometimes gets distracted by shiny things. d2 in red wedding he had 3 of the scum team read, he was hitting it in xeno and knocking it out of the ballpark in reign of flames. his reasons for voting td don't make sense to me and just don't sound like town venny and yet I wanna say he is town.

also cabd I feel like need to give you some love so here it is <3<3<3<3<3

This is horrible because it gives me a headache. Is Venmar scum or town? Does Fulsade want to trust his gut or not? Who does fus-roh-dah think is scum? If I was gagged, tied behind my back and forced to read this post as the only window in the game, I'd think we weren't in a game at all, but in the 'complement the person above you's playstyle' thread in Mafia Discussion.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

:/

why would it give you headache moreso than other posts in the game?

I have already said who I think is scummy so

[zMuffinMan]

@AJ,

Spoiler:

I never quite understood the TD wagon.

While I can't speak for others, I'll explain my line of reasoning here.

The reaction to the PGO claim felt fake. Talked about this a lot already, and I can maybe see how it's possible he would make the same post as town, but I still feel it's more likely to come from scum than town.

The flippant posting around p4 and p5 was just plain horrible. I considered two possibilities here: he's town and just playing really, really badly, or he's scum who thinks playing like this will make it seem like he doesn't care about the votes (and that perhaps this will make people think he's town). Again, I can see the possibility that he is town, but I think it's far more likely to come from him as scum.

Since then, while I've seen some posts that gave me slightly townish vibes, I've seen nothing that really makes me think town.

I want to see his reads on the game so far, and explanations for them, and then I'll decide from there whether I think the TD wagon is still good or not. His attack on mac for a "slip" is terrible and he should feel bad regardless of his alignment. I can maybe understand him not reading mac as town, but I don't see the scum read making much sense. (Yes, I'm aware that I have a town read on nick and he's also voting mac but I don't have an issue with nick's mac case, it doesn't strike me as a fake scum case, I just think he's wrong.)

This isn't TD's scum game

I don't care much for meta, but what about his play so far resembles his town game?

If nothing, then we can assume his play so far neither resembles his town or scum game, and therefore conclude that this means nothing.

I do believe B&B were right with the idea to analyze that wagon

That's an absolutely horrible idea prior to a flip, and if I see anyone doing it I'll basically ignore their opinion on anything for the entire game.

Unless by "analysing the wagon", you simply mean analysing who was saying what about the wagon, both on and off it, and determining which is more likely to come from scum than town. In which case, go ahead, but don't do it on the assumption of TD's alignment. And if this is the case, I'd like to point you towards BRO and RachMarie.

Varsoons post to Nhm was awful

I'll go back and read FTL in a bit, but tell me why you think it was awful and why this makes him scum?

---

Mastin's being passive, but he's being Town passive.

I don't agree with this. I don't think his approach to the game so far is at all an indication of his alignment (I can see him doing the same thing as scum or town), and I'm not all that impressed with the apathetic attitude he seems (or is pretending) to have adopted.

The only thing that's making me think mastin could be town is I don't think mastin-scum would seriously think attacking me is a good choice to start the game with. If he's scum, either he's forgotten how obvious I make it when I'm town, or he's doing some reverse-reverse-reverse psychology bullshit because he knows that i know that he knows that i know etc etc...

[zMuffinMan]

While I have issues with some of FTL's posts (#53, #55, #99, #144), I don't see anything else that really points to scum right now, and my issues with these posts have been partially explained in later posts by him. If you think the inadequacy of his explanations makes him obvscum, that's fine, but I don't see it and I'd like to see the reasons people think this.

I don't see anything that stands out as town either, but I think the arguments for him being scum are meh.

I have trouble reading this type of player.

[Faster Than Light]

hi this is MS


we are like BnB: Varsoon posts with grammar I (usually) don't

i need to get varsoon on skype

reads: aj town bnb town sos town td town venmar town

trustfund semi town mac semitown bro null

everyone else null

rach scum(like last game always) nhammen scum


notscience VIC


and if i werent in a hydra with varsoon i would vote him for scum

but no

[zMuffinMan]

Why do you think TD is town?
If you think TD is town, why are you still voting for him?

[Faster Than Light]

because my partner did