Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Ms Marangal]

Who else do you want me to look at though?

[Generic]

There were several points that he didn't respond to like, me admitting that I might not have had a legit reason to place that vote and that I admitted that the current read I have on him now is based off his response to that vote.

Instead he goes to call me a "Mind-reader or a liar" Either way, it's already grounds to shake any credibility I have against him with out addressing it directly

He also stated that I "wanted" to vote him earlier, but I didn't want to be called out for "OMGUS"

First and last paragraph there Mara. You admitted to not having a legitimate reason for voting me (bad enough, but then you tried to dress it up that you did so you tried to impose a wagon on me with nothing to back it up. Only reason why would be to protect someone else or you see me as a threat). But in the last paragraph you say you didnt want to OMGUS vote... What do you call voting for the person voting for you then without a reason?

And you remember when I said I was a 3rd party jester in rens game, one of your examples of identifying me as scum... You do understand the point of a jester role don't you? And the fact its third party?

And I said it was bullshit cos you said you always spot scum generic... Then changed that answer yourself the very next post.

So yes, covered the bullshit.

And as for post 121:

I speculated colo might come into our game. Who wouldn't given our old dynamic. But your case brought to me (eventually) is you telling people this is my scum game, you referencing offsite games and lying about them and the only occasion you mention a game relevant thing I apparently did you were wrong there too (claimed I jumped on shadoweh when he over reacted to me without me needing to name him).
I thought I would need to refer to mara from the purple days, haven't needed to given you are scum slipping under pressure.

Exactly what I've been saying all along. your only in game point s out me was a misrepresentation in the exact same vain you are correcting pb on.

And the sign off with "He is scum, I promise you he is scum." again It's just words. You haven't shown anything to back up this big statement, so you are relying on people taking you at your word that you can read my scum game... That's not a case. That's you trying to force through a lynch on reputation.

[Ms Marangal]

Generic isn't town Desp and I havn't been wrong on a scum-gen Read in the 10+ games I have had with him.

This is what I originally posted Generic.

Where do I state that I always catch you out as scum? I didn't, I stated that, every time I have a scum-read on you, you don't have a town-wincon. You are some kind of scum

I know what jester is, and 3P is still a scum role

I have never scumread you when you had a town wincon, that is what I said

You changed the meaning of my statement

and you once again stated that I don't have a case on you, I do and you admitted such earlier

and you are still aiming on shooting down any credibility my statements against you have

that's scum-intent right there.

[Ms Marangal]

But in the last paragraph you say you didnt want to OMGUS vote... What do you call voting for the person voting for you then without a reason?

No, that is what I'm saying you called me out on. It has nothing to do with what I want or, how I want to be perceived

I know mara and I know she would look for an opportunity to vote for me when it seemed most likely it wouldn't get labelled OMGUS.

Right here is what that last sentence is talking about

[Generic]

You just said you admitted to voting with no legitimate reason, correct?

An OMGUS vote is when you only vote for someone because they voted for you... Without a legitimate reason to vote it was OMGUS.

And you then went on to claim you had reasons but wasnt going to give them, making out it was done sort of reaction test. So you tried to cover the vote so it wouldn't be seen as OMGUS... So yes, my point stands.

You are aware everything you say is still written down right mara? You keep lying or trying to misrepresent events... Yet the true comments are still here to read.

Or are you relying on noone actually reading your or my posts?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Agree. Although I will say that scumGeneric was not really showing up to Red Wedding, so I don't really pay attention to that meta.

And the reason is she is trying to AtE and box in my accusations.

What you're seeing as AtE I'm starting to see as genuine frustration, and if she's trying to box in your accusations, she's doing a damn good job of it because from what I gather from the argument so far, her rebuttals have been pretty fucking solid.

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Agree. Although I will say that scumGeneric was not really showing up to Red Wedding, so I don't really pay attention to that meta.

And the reason is she is trying to AtE and box in my accusations.

What you're seeing as AtE I'm starting to see as genuine frustration, and if she's trying to box in your accusations, she's doing a damn good job of it because I unders

The push you are making mara is that you always spot me as scum.

You said we should look for misrepresentations if we're trying to suss out your scumgame, correct? Here's one.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

This is not at ALL the right move. When two people are familiar with one another and they are fighting with each other, that is the very first thing you pay attention to and you sort that out before anything else. If you read Tierce as scum, I will focus in on your fight until you have sorted her out to the best of your ability; ignoring what is pretty much a free scum lynch if we play our cards right is the worst move possible.

You kids are so gosh darn cute. Gargant, how new to mafia are you? Questioning why Generic would think there are 3 scum makes me think you just had a few newbie games, this is correct? Rereading the post up top there, PB, I wouldn't call it building up your cred if you're answering a question asked about your experience, literally. There are quite a few of us here who have lots of experience

and are still horrible like me

.

Is there a reason why YOU'RE ignoring this beautiful Generic versus Marangal fight in thread?

If that case isn't strong enough to convince you all she is one of the scum team then do be it, but only one of us has lied and attempted to use factors that cannot be easily back checked or require you to accept their opinion on how the other plays.

I would expect you to use your relevant experience with Mara; are you claiming to read her without considering her meta?

And the sign off with "He is scum, I promise you he is scum." again It's just words. You haven't shown anything to back up this big statement, so you are relying on people taking you at your word that you can read my scum game... That's not a case. That's you trying to force through a lynch on reputation.

And why is it scummy if that's her conviction? Sometimes showing your work isn't the most important part.

[Generic]

Generic isn't town Desp and I havn't been wrong on a scum-gen Read in the 10+ games I have had with him.

This is what I originally posted Generic.

Where do I state that I always catch you out as scum? I didn't, I stated that, every time I have a scum-read on you, you don't have a town-wincon. You are some kind of scum

I know what jester is, and 3P is still a scum role

I have never scumread you when you had a town wincon, that is what I said

You changed the meaning of my statement

and you once again stated that I don't have a case on you, I do and you admitted such earlier

and you are still aiming on shooting down any credibility my statements against you have

that's scum-intent right there.

So based on this guarantee you are making that when you say I'm scum I always am, you base that on what? Games external to here? So nothing to do with this game or even this site where info is readily available. Convenient.
Did you just say I'm scum and leave it at that in those games mara? Cos here all you have done is say "trust me he's scum" and have yet to provide a single reason why that makes any sense.

You said I jumped on shadoweh - nope he jumped on me.
You said I overreacted to your vote - you mean the vote you admit to having no legitimate reason for? Yeah, I'm likely to question a vote without a reason, always do.

And that's it. Your whole basis for calling he scum is you telling the game this is my scum game when two people in the game have already pointed out my meta from the red wedding says otherwise. And then you assure people you have always been right when calling me scum. Putting aside how easy it is to call someone scum when you don't back it up with a case (did you ever get a lynch on me mara or was it another 'trust me I'm right' arguement?) what happens when I flip town?
You have painted yourself into a corner, which is why your motives based on no case can only be scum motivated.

[Generic]

The comments and cases are there mara, feel free to have your last say back and then I will only answer questions you ask me cos we are hijacking this game with this at present.

Everyone can read over it and decide, we can take it from there.

[Nachomamma8]

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

These reads are pretty damn weak considering information in thread so far. Garg picking up on me feeling differently from what he's used to IMMEDIATELY was town as fuck. His attempt to involve himself in that fight that you seem to be avoiding was town as fuck. Shadoweh is cool probably town and all but you know there's no real reason peacebringer is scum and you know that ignoring the fight completely is bad bad bad. I'm willing to throw double-down on peacebringer being town and feel fine in calling empire town (he won't hide from me forever), and as of right now, feel pretty fine calling marangal town and generic scum. And it surprises me that you don't even get any paranoid vibes from him tunneling the fuck out of someone in the early game when that's exactly what he did in red wedding, when he's sitting back and chuckling at Mara lacking a case on him-scum when they have some history together and you know cases don't really need to be talked about when they have history together. Desperado has a slow start you also really aren't picking up on, and all the while it's this gorgeous, gorgeous fight going on that's generating this good information that you want to stop because you're being lazy/scum. Don't break my heart.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Generic

[Generic]

If its gonna be me who is lynched through this nacho, can you promise me something? When I flip town revisit lynching mara.

Cos her whole arguement falls on its arse when I flip town.

[Nachomamma8]

If its gonna be me who is lynched through this nacho, can you promise me something? When I flip town revisit lynching mara.

Cos her whole arguement falls on its arse when I flip town.

It does. That's why it's a bad argument for her to make as scum.
Also do you mind responding to what I've brought up so far? Tammy won't be mad at you if you talk with me, I promise.

[Generic]

I read what you said. You auto learned several people on very little, never gave a single reason for auto clearing mara as town and then said because I have focused my entire arguement on mara (even though I argued with shadoweh AND peacebrinfer whenever they brought something up about me or to me) I must be scum.

I have one vote. I gave three early reads, mara has been proven to be lying, changing the story and misrepresenting me. She is my too pick for scum while the other two are easily open to debate (I can be wrong quite often). But my case on mara is strong and I believe in it. So I respond to her continued attempts to lie or misrepresent me.

But if you read that as scummy, that's up to you. My flip will not only change the whole dynamic of this but also make for a great fmexample when one if you tries to claim you can read my scum game going forwards.

But I notice you have her a get out clause there nacho. When I flip town are you going to still town read mara cos it was a stupid gambit to get me killed which she couldn't possibly do as scum? Whoopsie, mara is a silly girl ain't she, misreading generic, but lets pat her on the head and tell her she made a mistake...
No, she is scum trying to survive another day phase and mislynch a strong player (you can call that an ego, but you haven't disputed my cas on mara, you have just auto learned her without reason and said my tunnelling makes me scum).

[Generic]

*auto cleared

Not auto learned

[Generic]

Btw. It didn't go unnoticed in your post you throw suspicion on tammy and desperado for considering this unlike my scum game.
You are auto clearing people on much less so try not to be a hypocrite nacho

[Nachomamma8]

then said because I have focused my entire arguement on mara (even though I argued with shadoweh AND peacebrinfer whenever they brought something up about me or to me) I must be scum.

I suspected you for following your own scum meta of misreps:

You said we should look for misrepresentations if we're trying to suss out your scumgame, correct? Here's one.

Mara said that she hasn't yet called town-Generic scum. You responded to this assertion with "oh, so you're saying that you always catch me out as scum???". That's not what she said, and it's scummy that you didn't even deny that she could read you or reply to those words at all because they are strong and they do have merit.

would expect you to use your relevant experience with Mara; are you claiming to read her without considering her meta?

Here, I didn't like how you were taking the high ground in using "confirmable" information for your scumread on Mara while she was not using confirmable information and that's why she was scummy. I pointed out that you were obviously using meta in reading her because you had many games together and were her former mentor, and thus it's strange you're trying to pretend like that doesn't factor at all into your read on her and the fact that she's using all of that information you have together is scummy.

Btw. It didn't go unnoticed in your post you throw suspicion on tammy and desperado for considering this unlike my scum game.
You are auto clearing people on much less so try not to be a hypocrite nacho

I called Tammy suspicious for attempting to shut down the fight between you and Marangal because this fight of yours have made the game infinitely more interesting. I called Desperado suspicious for having a "slow start", I did not say that I was suspicious of him because of his meta assertion. Do you disagree that Red Wedding was a weak scumgame of yours compared to others?

But hey, we can try this again. I sure as hell didn't see where I accused you of tunneling Marangal, but we can let that misrep slide. Respond to my attack against you now that I've clarified it, and please don't misrep so hard this time; it won't work against me.

[Generic]

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

These reads are pretty damn weak considering information in thread so far. Garg picking up on me feeling differently from what he's used to IMMEDIATELY was town as fuck. His attempt to involve himself in that fight that you seem to be avoiding was town as fuck. Shadoweh is cool probably town and all but you know there's no real reason peacebringer is scum and you know that ignoring the fight completely is bad bad bad. I'm willing to throw double-down on peacebringer being town and feel fine in calling empire town (he won't hide from me forever), and as of right now, feel pretty fine calling marangal town and generic scum.

And it surprises me that you don't even get any paranoid vibes from him tunneling the fuck out of someone in the early game

when that's exactly what he did in red wedding, when he's sitting back and chuckling at Mara lacking a case on him-scum when they have some history together and you know cases don't really need to be talked about when they have history together. Desperado has a slow start you also really aren't picking up on, and all the while it's this gorgeous, gorgeous fight going on that's generating this good information that you want to stop because you're being lazy/scum. Don't break my heart.

What misrep?

And mara said:

In post 115, Ms Marangal wrote:
Generic isn't town Desp and I havn't been wrong on a scum-gen Read in the 10+ games I have had with him.

At worst mine was a misinterpretation cos that clearly reads to me she hasn't been wrong in reading my scum game yet. Putting aside I know she is wrong now it's a sweeping statement that you should trust her cos she is always right, which I called bullshit so how did I not dispute it?

But reads can be wrong. For example I to d it interesting you were on empire as scum, and since then all he has posted is he hasn't had time and will catch up soon and suddenly he's town to you.

What you are doing is auto clearing people with no reasoning. Still none, even when I press the point. Those you know you can't suck up to you place suspicion on, and all of this to do what exactly?

At present it seems to get traction on my wagon.

Please feel free to wagon me to lynch. My early reads were early reads.

I place my opinion strongly on mara being scum. And nacho is becoming a firm second choice. But to make these words count you need to see my flip, so lynch me and then aim everything at nacho and mara. Cos I am happy to leave this game knowing I saw through them.

[Nachomamma8]

What misrep?

Surprises, not "makes me suspect you". Where was my attack on Desperado for thinking you are town off meta?

Putting aside I know she is wrong now it's a sweeping statement that you should trust her cos she is always right, which I called bullshit so how did I not dispute it?

She's saying she's good at reading you as scum. You don't deny the fact; you call her scum for a broad sweeping statement. You don't see an issue in that?

But reads can be wrong. For example I to d it interesting you were on empire as scum, and since then all he has posted is he hasn't had time and will catch up soon and suddenly he's town to you.

Empire is an easy nut to crack when scum. I want his entrance in the game to be as uncomfortable as possible in the chances as he does roll scum. He does look town at the moment, although I will say that it's weird as fuck he didn't pick up on me trolling him sooner, considering his familiarity with my meta.

What you are doing is auto clearing people with no reasoning. Still none, even when I press the point. Those you know you can't suck up to you place suspicion on, and all of this to do what exactly?

I've provided enough reasoning. My reads certainly aren't as set in stone as you're pretending they are.

Please feel free to wagon me to lynch. My early reads were early reads.

I place my opinion strongly on mara being scum. And nacho is becoming a firm second choice. But to make these words count you need to see my flip, so lynch me and then aim everything at nacho and mara. Cos I am happy to leave this game knowing I saw through them.

You could also respond to my concerns and stop dancing around them!

[Generic]

No nacho, you called me scum, asked why noone was paranoid at me tunnelling someone in early game when that's what I did in red wedding.
Clearly basing it as a reason to call me scum.

And your attack on desperado and tammy was a convenience. I credit you with more than to outright link the pair on the same point.

You keep pointing to what you want answered nacho. I've already said I want my lynch to come so you and mara can be found out. The more you want to post attacking me you feel free, I will just keep pointing out your inconsistencies as we go so when I flip I hope there are enough strong players ready to pick this back up in day 2.

Your defences need to improve nacho, not your attacks. Cos I'm welcoming the lynch, it's your scumminess that will need covering after my reveal.

[Nachomamma8]

let's stop making walls since apparently you won't answer questions unless we do this the long drawn out way.

And your attack on desperado

where did I attack desperado?

[Generic]

Empire is an easy nut to crack when scum. I want his entrance in the game to be as uncomfortable as possible in the chances as he does roll scum. He does look town at the moment, although I will say that it's weird as fuck he didn't pick up on me trolling him sooner, considering his familiarity with my meta.

And for someone saying I'm dancing around points this here is laughable. You outright attack him as scum which you now claim was because the chance are he will flip scum, but having posted NOTHING but a comment that he will catch up when he can you have suddenly seen him as town.
I think you are sucking up so he votes the way you want him to.


Pedit: oh you didn't cast suspicion on him then?

[Nachomamma8]

Pedit: oh you didn't cast suspicion on him then?

I did say I was suspicious of him. I want you to quote my reason why and tell me how you get "meta reading generic wrong is sus" from my post.

[Generic]

And I told you 'a slow start' is a deliberately am oculus reason so you can play games when people question it or read into it.

Side stepping the empire point then. Hypocricy yet again nacho.

[Generic]

*ambiguous

[Generic]

My sons trampoline lesson now, so you carry on pushing a wagon even I'm endorsing and I will come back later to see what else you have come up with.