Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Desperado]

Who else do you want me to look at though?

I hear you, you're saying he's scum and he's saying you are. At this point, every single post you make to the other is just confirming what you're saying and it's not very productive nor is it helpful in gaining a read on either of you so as to know how to gauge what you're saying. At this point, people are just going to pick sides, and a lot of times that comes down to who they sympathize with more or who annoys them more, and then it's a crapshoot for if we find scum.

I'm not telling you to look at anyone in particular. Though I'd like to know your thoughts on desperado.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

This is not at ALL the right move. When two people are familiar with one another and they are fighting with each other, that is the very first thing you pay attention to and you sort that out before anything else. If you read Tierce as scum, I will focus in on your fight until you have sorted her out to the best of your ability; ignoring what is pretty much a free scum lynch if we play our cards right is the worst move possible.

I don't agree and I never said anything about ignoring it. It's become largely unproductive and a distraction. I think it shouldn't be their sole focus and I think it should be tabled. And I've seen enough people who think they know each other read each other wrong that I'm not going to go blindly on that. There is no new ground being tread, neither is budging nor are they seeing anything the other is saying as productive. It's dissolved into NO U. That's not productive or helpful at all. And I haven't been able to gauge a read on either I feel halfway decent about that would even make the start of the argument meaningful.

Tammy is also town for her reaction to Mara v Generic in reference to macmollie v myself in RW

[Tammy]

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

These reads are pretty damn weak considering information in thread so far. Garg picking up on me feeling differently from what he's used to IMMEDIATELY was town as fuck. His attempt to involve himself in that fight that you seem to be avoiding was town as fuck. Shadoweh is cool probably town and all but you know there's no real reason peacebringer is scum and you know that ignoring the fight completely is bad bad bad. I'm willing to throw double-down on peacebringer being town and feel fine in calling empire town (he won't hide from me forever), and as of right now, feel pretty fine calling marangal town and generic scum. And it surprises me that you don't even get any paranoid vibes from him tunneling the fuck out of someone in the early game when that's exactly what he did in red wedding, when he's sitting back and chuckling at Mara lacking a case on him-scum when they have some history together and you know cases don't really need to be talked about when they have history together. Desperado has a slow start you also really aren't picking up on, and all the while it's this gorgeous, gorgeous fight going on that's generating this good information that you want to stop because you're being lazy/scum. Don't break my heart.

So? No I mean really, so. I wouldn't have even given those reads if they weren't specifically asked for. There is literally no good reason for you even pretending to entertain an idea I could be scum here. There's just not, not if you're actually paying attention to me. There's just no way I could be as happy as I was to start this game as scum after now drawing it five times in near succession. Sorry, there's just not. And I do have reason to be suspicious of peacebringer and I'm surprised you're doubling down on calling him town as fuck and dismissing my suspicions without even bothering to ask me why I would be. That's not trying to figure me out, and this lame ass you're ignoring a fight, which I'm not even, not a little, ignoring is silly. You know perfectly well that scum could easily take a side, perhaps against their partner for the town cred, but that doesn't make them town for doing it. Also, and I get that paranoia is a typical characteristic of my play, but I'm not generally paranoid early day one. And why the hell do you think I asked them to stop fighting? Because I think it's a distraction and I think it's unhelpful, and I'm unable to get reads on either f them right now. But if they stop the fight that has become unproductive and start interacting with other people, we might be able to get better reads on both of them. That is anything but ignoring. Also, just because I didn't give all my reads right now doesn't mean I don't have thoughts. There are things that I'm holding onto to see how some things develop.

But if you want to compare it to the red wedding, please do. Considering the fact that I started bussing him early, then took metal sonics side in the fight and voted generic against him and tried to white knight metal sonic, I can't believe you're throwing this at me right now. When as scum I clearly didn't ignore a fight, and took a side, what makes you think for a second that I'm the type of scum player to do that? I'm obviously not sure what to think here and want something that I think has become unhelpful to end so that scum don't have a place to hide and to get a better feel for both of them and the people who reacted.

And not to mention but I think extended bickerfests like this are bad for town. I think they are bad for town when I get involved in them and am usually trying to wrench myself out of them because I think they're bad for town, and I think they are bad for town when others do them.

[Tammy]

Desperado - I was scum in red wedding. However, those were my honest thoughts; I'd have thought that way as town.

[Desperado]

Desperado - I was scum in red wedding. However, those were my honest thoughts; I'd have thought that way as town.

I know you were scum, and the two reactions are different enough that I'm reading you as town.

I remember someone saying that the inclusion of flowery language and expansive metaphors whilst dispelling the argument was the scumtell for you--when you're town you cut the shit and try to solve the problem and move on, which is what I see here.

[TheGarantula]

Can someone link me to the red wedding game?

[Desperado]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29483

[Empire]

Also, when I switch to laptop I will give a filler reason, but a couple of empires posts feel forced and one or two people have come in to gang up on nacho since he pointed to empire... Something feels off, but I am hesitant to believe people on mafia scum would so obviously chainsaw or town clear a scum buddy on day 1... Distancing and bussing all day long, but blatant buddy work? Not so sure.

Half the room has played with me so they very well know what to expect when it comes to my play.

This feels weird empire. Don't feel weird. I mean I'm definitely town, but I'd kinda expect you to know why I am. You making it a group read effort makes me feel all wobbly.

That's not even what I was doing. I know exactly why you're town (you've rolled scum a lot here and offsite so you're super excited and stoked to be town in this game) but the others don't. The point of that line is to make Marangal, who I had town at that point because of her paranoia of you, more secure in that read. I've kind of lost all patience at this point with people and after seeing shit like our slot's townread on DV being ignored in The Wire, I want to make sure everyone's on the same page.

Buddying Tammy isn't going to stop her from her reading you as scum; everyone knows you would never regret trolling Tammy.

(Pssst. You should read the crossed out part, you know I could never give that up <_<)

He does look town at the moment, although I will say that it's weird as fuck he didn't pick up on me trolling him sooner, considering his familiarity with my meta.

Like I said above there, it's because I have no patience for shit anymore so my knee jerk reaction was to read that and get mad. I didn't see you were trolling until page 2 or whenever.

---

@Desperado/Tammy:

In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?

@Generic:

Please answer the following:
1) Why is there a high correlation between {your suspects} and {people who suspect you}?
2) In #63, you say you find some of my early posts forced. However, in #170, you make an argument that necessarily assumes that I am town as a basis for your scumread on Nacho despite the fact that I had only posted something tantamount to a prod dodge since then. What changed?

P-edit: The Red Wedding

[Desperado]

@Desperado/Tammy: In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?

Mainly the way he's approaching the fight with Mara. The emotional responses are genuine and I can see the gears turning in his brain, whereas in RW I felt like his side of the Generic/MS fight was fake and put-on.

[Empire]

Also, can people please stop using hypocrisy as a scumtell? It's not even remotely close to being one given that people are far less likely to be objective/impartial about their own actions than they are about other people's.

Also also, Desperado's town bloc looks solid except I'd swap Generic for Shadoweh.

Also also also, I was gonna neatly lay out why you guys should move over to Gaiden but Desperado beat me to it.

P-edit: Alright, well, I have him scheduled for a meta dive when I get more time because I personally found him suspicious in how he's constructed his posts against Marangal/Nacho in that way where he doesn't seem at all curious about their alignments but just wants to make them look as bad as possible to get them strung up. But I have a feeling this might be more of a playstyle or a site meta language barrier issue given that he plays mostly off-site in places like MTGS so I want to look into his games here to compare how he plays as both alignments.

[Desperado]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

[Empire]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

Mostly because I feel like she's playing somewhat similarly to this game (bonus: Llamarble, Tammy, and myself were all town here while Nacho was scum).

[Tammy]

I called Tammy suspicious for attempting to shut down the fight between you and Marangal because this fight of yours have made the game infinitely more interesting.

Yes, Tammy is sooooo suspicious for wanting a fight that has become unproductive to end. It's just so horrible of me to want them to interact with and talk about other people that isn't just rooted in their bickerfests so that town can get a better read on them and then maybe be able to see if there's something in that fight that's worthwhile.

Why didn't you ask me why I wanted the fight to end? Why did you just tell me what you think I should be thinking instead of seeing where I'm coming from?

[Desperado]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

Mostly because I feel like she's playing somewhat similarly to this game (bonus: Llamarble, Tammy, and myself were all town here while Nacho was scum).

Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.

In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:

"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."

Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?

[Tammy]

Liking tammy though (not in that way, I'm a married man).
Tammy, what are your early thoughts?

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

I'm looking forward to when empire gets a chance to post so I can solidify my read there, but he might be town.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

Is the shadow read meta-based?

Peace's Generic questioning looked really town to me, what's got you leaning scum there?

Yeah, shadow feels more like she did in the wire and in yoloville where we were all town, but I should be able to get a better feel as the game progresses.

Well, I'm still a bit suspicious about peace based on bald eagle replacing out. He's still active on site and signing up for games. He was scum reading nacho and replaced out after being questioned on his reads. I'm worried about that. I know he's new and could get intimidated either way, but it seems like an odd thing so early. And peace came in and immediately latched onto generic and didn't say anything about anyone else. If generic is scum, I could see that from a partner trying to make sure they were on the right side of the argument. Generic has reacted to peace a bit more calmly than he's reacted to some, and if generic is scum I can see that interaction as partnership based. This I'm going off of the way generic treated my suspicions of him in the red wedding as opposed to others. If generic isn't scum then this falls apart some, but I'm still concerned about the replace out thing.

[Empire]

Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.

In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:

"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."

Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?

I think the circumstances of this game are different, but if you don't mind, I'd rather wait for Shadoweh to respond to this first before I go into more detail on what I see.

[Desperado]

@ Tammy: Which scumflip would be more damaging for the other, Generic or Shadow?

@ Empire: I don't mind.

[Tammy]

Desperado - I was scum in red wedding. However, those were my honest thoughts; I'd have thought that way as town.

I know you were scum, and the two reactions are different enough that I'm reading you as town.

I remember someone saying that the inclusion of flowery language and expansive metaphors whilst dispelling the argument was the scumtell for you--when you're town you cut the shit and try to solve the problem and move on, which is what I see here.

That's good to know >_>

[Tammy]

@ Tammy: Which scumflip would be more damaging for the other, Generic or Shadow?

I don't understand the question.

[Desperado]

On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Generic look if we lynched Shadow and they flipped scum?
On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Shadow look if we lynched Generic and they flipped scum?

[Tammy]

This feels weird empire. Don't feel weird. I mean I'm definitely town, but I'd kinda expect you to know why I am. You making it a group read effort makes me feel all wobbly.

That's not even what I was doing. I know exactly why you're town (you've rolled scum a lot here and offsite so you're super excited and stoked to be town in this game) but the others don't. The point of that line is to make Marangal, who I had town at that point because of her paranoia of you, more secure in that read. I've kind of lost all patience at this point with people and after seeing shit like our slot's townread on DV being ignored in The Wire, I want to make sure everyone's on the same page.

That's exactly why you should know I'm town!

@Desperado/Tammy:

In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?

His responses seem more genuine. Also i dont remember him omgusing everyone who went after him. like he pretty much told shadoweh that he felt better about her once she wasnt attacking him, which seems werid for scum. idk. But I'm a bad person to ask. I had the benefit of knowing generic was spouting bullshit in that game, and here I trying to figure out whether or not he is. It's part of why I want this fight to end. I want to see how he reads and interacts with people without the foundation of the Mara fight as I think that's where it'll be easier to get a handle on him.

Ill also be interested in your meta read on him.

[Tammy]

On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Generic look if we lynched Shadow and they flipped scum?
On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Shadow look if we lynched Generic and they flipped scum?

I haven't drawn a connection between generic and shadoweh and would be surprised if they were scum together based on their interactions right now.

I thought you were town reading generic though?

[Tammy]

VOTE: gaiden

[Desperado]

On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Generic look if we lynched Shadow and they flipped scum?
On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Shadow look if we lynched Generic and they flipped scum?

I haven't drawn a connection between generic and shadoweh and would be surprised if they were scum together based on their interactions right now.

I thought you were town reading generic though?

Wow, I missed that that 2nd paragraph was about peace.

I am reading Generic town but you aren't, I was just trying to gauge the hierarchy of your reads

[FakeGod]

Elleran has asked to replace out. I'll look for an replacement.

[FakeGod]

bump