Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Nachomamma8]

Why is your vote parked on someone who acts like I have in some of our past games

I switched my vote, my love.

[Bert]

Understood, dah'lin.

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 1.6

SXTLHGaiden [4]: Empire, Desperado, Tammy, The Purple Shoe
Bert [2]: SXTLHGaiden, Shadoweh
Nachomamma8 [1]: Generic
Generic [2]: Ms Marangal, PeaceBringer
Desperado [2]: Llamarble, Nachomamma8

Not Voting [2] - TheGarantula, Bert

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

.

Deadline is August 30, 2013, at 11:00 AM PST.
Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-08-30 13:00:00)

[Desperado]

Desperado: That doesn't answer my question at all. Why did YOU think that I was scum with Generic? You don't just leave someone out of your fave town buddies then question the people who are town reading them about what's up with them unless YOU think there's something wrong with them. And none of those reasons you gave answer my question, unless you mean how you misconstrued something Tammy said, which again doesn't answer why you were pairing us to begin with.

I don't think you're scum with Generic. You were null and I wanted to know why Tammy and Emp had you as town. Tammy started talking about you and then switched to Peace in the following paragraph, drawing connections to Generic, who were both townreads for me.

Why are you overreacting to something that I've already admitted was a mistake and wasn't even a serious FOS to begin with?

I feel like he took the antagonism too far,

What would've been a more acceptable level of antagonism?

None. If his goal was to get Generic to shape up and stop AtEing, flatly accusing him of AtEing and inviting him to self-vote was a really odd course of action.

I feel like the tone of his post was geared more towards pushing Generic's buttons than getting him to step his game up.

What's the difference?

One is more likely to produce a positive reaction than the other.

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Desperado, your current reasons for Generic being town are this and town-flail. I don't think that not acknowledging misreps that you've made is town-flail; I think that the "vote me and see the truth of this game" is town-flail, but you're picking up on Gen-town too early and not for good reason.

Says you. I saw a difference in Gen's reaction to a 1v1 as early page three. His posture and disposition in the argument with Mara was completely different than in Red Wedding.

Peace's Generic questioning looked really town to me,

Why?

Because his questioning appeared to be geared towards discerning Generic's alignment--in contrast to Gaiden's fan flaming in particular.

I am reading Generic town but you aren't, I was just trying to gauge the hierarchy of your reads

This line of questioning seems useless. What did you expect to gain from your questions about Shadoweh-Generic? Why wasn't "probably on the same team" good enough for you?

To better understand Tammy's mindset and figure out which read I would have to talk her out of first.

[Generic]

Ok, nacho asked for my opinion on desp:

Opening posts seem fine, and his comment about the red wedding seems ok too cos he isn't fishing for which way opinion is falling because he offers his view first.
His post discussing reads with tammy doesn't feel suspicious, again he is declaring his reads with justifications. He brings up his case against gaiden which seems to make sense. I have avoided involving myself in that at present cos I was the eye of that shitstorm. And I am more likely than not to vote in favour of that case because it was an antagonism too far, but was gaiden just the last in the line of people poking me with a stick for clarity on my alignment?

The next set of posts are strong clarity on his read of tammy which is what put my concerns about his heavy reliance on feedback from tammy rather than anyone else on reads. Bert and nacho have since began this exclusive club way of interaction where pairs of people digress into their own little chat in the open with references between them that sometimes excludes the rest.
Ironically had our interaction not run off in the opposite direction myself and mara could have been doing the same thing with our past encounters.
Then there is the mix up between PB and shadoweh with regards to links to me, again seems genuine cos as errors go he doesn't go off on wild theories and when he does realise is quick to hold his hand up to it.

Last few posts show him stand strong to what he has already said and refuses to alter his theories or reads. Doesn't overreact to shadoweh not realising he acknowledged a mistake in naming her with me.

Desperado has been very cool, calm and collected. Even when pressured or pressed for expanding on his points he has obliged.

My read hasn't changed, he seems to be town in his mindset.

[Ms Marangal]

GENERIC MARA POISON KING IS ASKING ME WHAT GENRES I ENJOY AND I JUST WANT TO SEE MAFIA META

I wasn't even aware you could have a private account? I don't think making the account public is a bad idea though

That one, and TAM's polygamist game (I forgot to link it but it should be easy to find as it's the only one) are the only two scum-games I had with him where he had to worry about a team.

The biggest difference in my reading him is his attitude in that game, compared to the attitude in the Werewolf game. He was confident in both of them, though his pushes had a clear base in the werewolf game and which is something he lacked in the polygamy game

UNVOTE:

[Generic]

The polygamist mafia game was a joke. I had to sub in after Iso quit claiming he hated the setup but was conveniently timed when half the game was suspecting him as scum.
Not only did I manage to turn the tide on that game but I almost won it for mafia... Had we not lost a person each side to activity forcing a draw (can't mod kill a player in that setup without taking out the partner/team with them).
I would suggest if you are going to hold that game against me as an example of reading me mara you need to accept you had bias towards the slot already, and justifiably so with having read Iso correctly.

[Generic]

Also, what werewolf game? I played in two werewolf games and I was town in both.

Give me the games you called me scum in and was right please mara, I will get leech to log in and let me look.

[Tammy]

Don't know how to read Bert. He kinda seems similar to 501 in tone, but since he replaced out early I didn't get a chance to see what his town game really looks like. I believe he plays a lot with nacho, so he'd be a better person to ask.

I did like the paranoia he threw at me immediately upon entering. However, I did let soo slip by me in mafia.raptured partially for this because I wrote it off as town for a little while, but Bert's felt more natural. I don't know what I did to erase that paranoia though.

I asked you about Bert because he did a number of things that I think town-you would definitely like, the paranoia of you being one thing, and I wanted to see if you'd point them out so I could feel better about having read you as town. #240 is another example of something I liked about him that I expected you to see, the line about how he doesn't feel like he could ever lead a successful case against you read extremely genuine and I'm surprised you didn't mention anything of it. I'm still reading you as town but I'm not as confident as I want to be I guess. I don't know, I think part of this is just motivated by the fear that one day you'll just burn me as scum because I underestimated your game.

Also, why weren't you indignant when I responded to you yesterday? I remember in Yoloville you lashed out at me saying something like "how dare you say I can't be paranoid of you!" but there's nothing like that here.

(As an aside, I think Bert is very different from SoO in that he seems a lot more like a "heart-on-sleeve" kind of player and that mimicking that level of transparency is very hard to do as scum. SoO just kinda lurked his way through the whole game without offering solid opinions on anything.)

No no no no no. You are still making me feel weird. You wonder why you are also feeling weird to me and then you bring out this pile of nonsense? THIS quasi-paranoia at me feels fake as hell. You told me that you could go through the game and pick out your own town tells well buddy my should be bleeping like a beacon all over the game. How people like shadoweh, desperado and Bert can recognize why I'm town here and you, mr. Meta man, can't is baffling. I town told in in my first couple of posts. You told me why I was town, and that should show you why I am. How you're able to recognize that shadoweh was town based on something very little, enough that you suggested that she be out in the town block, and start questioning me? Or use my read on Bert to gauge you're read on me. Sorry empire this doesn't add up. Not one bit. Oh and that bs "you didn't catch this line that I thought was genuine so don't know why makes me unconfident in my read on you" is exactly what it is absolute bs. If you wanted my opinion on that line and whether or not I thought it was genuine, you should have asked me about it. I am not like you. I do not point out every single thing someone says and go this, this and this. You know I don't, and the face that you didn't actually enter into conversation about it with me is really troubling.

And I'm actually so absolutely shocked be the last question. Are you serious? No really are you? I can't tell because its such a stupid question I can't tell how town you would actually ask it. My answer should be easy enough for you to understand...how I responded to you and to Bert. Should actually be fine and should be even more telling to you that I am in fact town here. You are making me feel weird this game. I don't have a solid reason to think you're town. Yes, you've done some things that look town to me, but you haven't done anything that I don't believe you can do as scum. I told you you were making me feel weird in part because I wanted to see your reaction. Which should be damn clear to you because I literally said I was hoping for an answer like this. And if you can't pick up on the fact that I literally also said that I was having a really weird day and to just cut me some slack and interacted with Bert as being true and me recognizing the maybe I'm just having a bad day and its influencing how I feel about the game then I don't know what to tell you.

But here's what I do know buddy. You do not, not a little bit, get to throw indignant crap at me in which you even recognize that others might be slow to warm up to you and expect me to have this super duper unwavering town read on you, which if you're recognizing that you're not a beacon then you have no reason to expect I should read you as town, and which is reading fake in light of nacho saying that you expect your friends to read you as town and then question me like this. Because as far as I'm concerned I should be your strongest town read. There should be no doubt in your mind about my alignment. So sorry but you can cut out your "I'm worried you might burn me as scum". Why don't you Mr. meta man go read my scum games again then come back in here and tell me you're worried. Go on, do it. I dare you to find anything in my play that is anything other than me being town when I've been quite transparently town the entire game.

-------------

I just woke up from a nap and read backwards. I might not be able to get back to this until tomorrow depending on how much work I get done tonight. I know I missed a question from beet I wanted to answer last night, ill do that later.

[Tammy]

Don't know how to read Bert. He kinda seems similar to 501 in tone, but since he replaced out early I didn't get a chance to see what his town game really looks like. I believe he plays a lot with nacho, so he'd be a better person to ask.

I did like the paranoia he threw at me immediately upon entering. However, I did let soo slip by me in mafia.raptured partially for this because I wrote it off as town for a little while, but Bert's felt more natural. I don't know what I did to erase that paranoia though.

I asked you about Bert because he did a number of things that I think town-you would definitely like, the paranoia of you being one thing, and I wanted to see if you'd point them out so I could feel better about having read you as town. #240 is another example of something I liked about him that I expected you to see, the line about how he doesn't feel like he could ever lead a successful case against you read extremely genuine and I'm surprised you didn't mention anything of it. I'm still reading you as town but I'm not as confident as I want to be I guess. I don't know, I think part of this is just motivated by the fear that one day you'll just burn me as scum because I underestimated your game.

Also, why weren't you indignant when I responded to you yesterday? I remember in Yoloville you lashed out at me saying something like "how dare you say I can't be paranoid of you!" but there's nothing like that here.

(As an aside, I think Bert is very different from SoO in that he seems a lot more like a "heart-on-sleeve" kind of player and that mimicking that level of transparency is very hard to do as scum. SoO just kinda lurked his way through the whole game without offering solid opinions on anything.)

No no no no no. You are still making me feel weird. You wonder why you are also feeling weird to me and then you bring out this pile of nonsense? THIS quasi-paranoia at me feels fake as hell. You told me that you could go through the game and pick out your own town tells well buddy my should be bleeping like a beacon all over the game. How people like shadoweh, desperado and Bert can recognize why I'm town here and you, mr. Meta man, can't is baffling. I town told in in my first couple of posts. You told me why I was town, and that should show you why I am. How you're able to recognize that shadoweh was town based on something very little, enough that you suggested that she be out in the town block, and start questioning me? Or use my read on Bert to gauge you're read on me. Sorry empire this doesn't add up. Not one bit. Oh and that bs "you didn't catch this line that I thought was genuine so don't know why makes me unconfident in my read on you" is exactly what it is absolute bs. If you wanted my opinion on that line and whether or not I thought it was genuine, you should have asked me about it. I am not like you. I do not point out every single thing someone says and go this, this and this. You know I don't, and the face that you didn't actually enter into conversation about it with me is really troubling.

And I'm actually so absolutely shocked be the last question. Are you serious? No really are you? I can't tell because its such a stupid question I can't tell how town you would actually ask it. My answer should be easy enough for you to understand...how I responded to you and to Bert. Should actually be fine and should be even more telling to you that I am in fact town here. You are making me feel weird this game. I don't have a solid reason to think you're town. Yes, you've done some things that look town to me, but you haven't done anything that I don't believe you can do as scum. I told you you were making me feel weird in part because I wanted to see your reaction. Which should be damn clear to you because I literally said I was hoping for an answer like this. And if you can't pick up on the fact that I literally also said that I was having a really weird day and to just cut me some slack and interacted with Bert as being true and me recognizing the maybe I'm just having a bad day and its influencing how I feel about the game then I don't know what to tell you.

But here's what I do know buddy. You do not, not a little bit, get to throw indignant crap at me in which you even recognize that others might be slow to warm up to you and expect me to have this super duper unwavering town read on you, which if you're recognizing that you're not a beacon then you have no reason to expect I should read you as town, and which is reading fake in light of nacho saying that you expect your friends to read you as town and then question me like this. Because as far as I'm concerned I should be your strongest town read. There should be no doubt in your mind about my alignment. So sorry but you can cut out your "I'm worried you might burn me as scum". Why don't you Mr. meta man go read my scum games again then come back in here and tell me you're worried. Go on, do it. I dare you to find anything in my play that is anything other than me being town when I've been quite transparently town the entire game.

-------------

I just woke up from a nap and read backwards. I might not be able to get back to this until tomorrow depending on how much work I get done tonight. I know I missed a question from beet I wanted to answer last night, ill do that later.

[Tammy]

Empire - what are your reads? How come you haven't posted any yet?

What do you think of peacebringer? I'm gathering since you agreed with him being in the town block you agree with him as town. Why? And why didn't you interact with me concerning that read? Have you noticed that he has yet again ignored my question to him about his other reads?

And if you're so concerned with me, what do you think about my interaction with nacho, shadoweh, desperado, Bert, generic? That should be telling to you, and you actually needed to know my read on Bert and whether or not I would pick out one line to gauge your read on me? I call bs. I have plenty of interactions with people that you should be able to read me off of, and you've just plain ignored that for favor of what type of read I would give Bert. Doesn't add up.

[Ms Marangal]

I was saying that you was mafia there, but you had originally gotten me to rescind the scum read I had on Iso.

I was sus of you in Isos king maker and had stated that you were svum as soon as amoe killed me.

I was also called you out as scum in rens game. you were jester there but I still kinda count it.

[Tammy]

Also, I didn't compare him to Soo. Their playstyles have nothing, absolutley nothing, to do with that statement. I was referencing me. That its a tell I've used before to read someone as maybe town and been wrong ABOUT THE TELL.

[Tammy]

He's not on my case, he knows I'm town and what his problem is is that I should know he's town too. That's why he said he doesn't want to deal with my paranoia. The problem isn't with him, the problem is with me. He's my friend and hell

recognize that I'm acknowledging that and asking him to just cut me some slack.

not understand it at all and use it to throw stupid crap at me

FTFM

[Generic]

How can you count a game where I'm meant to make you think I'm scummy?

So your only example of reading me as scum was vote shenanigans 3, a game where you voted me in as king and only called me scum on your death? I will have a look at the comments you made, but you based your whole 'trust me' push on me on a single game where you called me s um in the twilight of your lynch?

[Tammy]

And, this is going to be my last post I promise, I really do have to finish my lecture for tomorrow but Empire answer me this:

In what world, do you think that I, who hate being scum and have drawn it several times lately and would just feel dreadful to draw scum here, start out the game taunting you about what your alignment is? In what world do you actually think that I as scum start the game in as good of a mood as I did joking around with people and what not if I'm scum here. Seriously? I realize you haven't called me scum but you not being confident in me has me flabbergasted because to even be uncertain about me a little bit you'd have to think that I faked the beginning of the game. And I'd really really love for you to explain to me how you think that I could have remotely done that. That would mean me trying to pull one over on Nacho (who has seen me as scum twice in a row now), Shadoweh, you, and to a lesser extent Llamarble, generic and mara who are all familiar with me.

So, do that, tell me how any of that looks fake, because if you have any doubt about me you'd have to believe that was. But see, I know you couldn't think that because you know that's not something that I could fake, so your doubt, feels fake to me.

[Generic]

Ok, have looked at this one game you based the whole arguement if being able to read me as scum on because it was a massive bug bear that when I called it bullshit you attacked me on that.

Day 1 - you are part of the wagon that votes me in as king. So clearly don't think I'm s I'm there.
Day 2 - you defend my choice of lynch even though it was a mislynch
You are reluctant to be made king/queen for day 2.
And that's it til you are killed.
Your final post after being chosen for lynch:

Amoe, you are a bloody idiot. I never take the back seat as scum. You just lost your town double voter, and person who could lynch two people as king. good luck trying to find scum, You all are going to need it

So you didn't even suspect me unless it happened on day 2 and you voted me in to choose the lynch choice that day!

So please, one last time, what examples are you basing your being right when you read me as scum that aren't a game where my win condition was to make you see me as scum.

[Generic]

*unless it happened on day 1

[Empire]

Hey Tammy, I don't know if you actually bothered to read anything I've been saying but I made it very clear that I do have reads and that I told Bert I'd be posting them tonight. You'd also know that I've hinted at several of them already and have even explained my reasoning for some. And if you actually knew a damn thing about me then you'd know I'm not the most confident player in the world despite me joking about it, doubly so when my last completed game was 3 fucking months ago.

And I don't know if you realize this, but I do actually hold your scum game to a higher standard than you do for yourself. Believe it or not, I read you as town in Open 501 for most of the game (and even Regfan did too). I *think* I misread you in the Red Wedding too but I'm not sure since I focused mostly on my Reck scumread while following it. So go fuck yourself if you think this paranoia is fake because I can assure you that it is very very real.

And fucking lol at you saying that I'm not allowed to be indignant while you are. If you could stop bring self-absorbed for maybe ten fucking seconds then MAYBE you'd see that I'm also asking you these things to field your reactions because I want to be more certain of you because sorting you out early is my #1 priority.

And finally, there is literally, postively no way I'd play this way as scum or interact with you like this at all as scum. Why wouldn't I just coast on by hardtownreading you and just filing you away? Why the fuck would I even try this shit?

Literally posting this from my phone at dinner with my friends and now my night's hampered. If you don't think I'm obvious fucking town after this, then you need to hand in your badge because you're off the fucking force which is sad because I have objectively the worst scum game on this site (my last completed scum game being over a year ago now).

[PeaceBringer]

can the meta nonsense please cease and desist. I really do not care for who did what in what game. This is this game the rest is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[PeaceBringer]

unvote,

crawling in a corner... someone let me know when the metanonsense stops and give me a kick

[Bert]

Gosh Tammy, you're being so paranoid about what others think of you, or rather what others "should" think of you

Also I think both of you Empire and Tammy are severely underestimating your own scum games

Stop selling yourselves short, geez louise

unvote,

crawling in a corner... someone let me know when the metanonsense stops and give me a kick

please stop hiding, that is really scummy, your last two posts

Would you like to be voted?

[Generic]

can the meta nonsense please cease and desist. I really do not care for who did what in what game. This is this game the rest is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

There is a reason to it PB.

I was accused of being scum by nacho for not immediately accepting a misrep. To my mind it was a misinterpretation which when clarified I owned up to, but the point was the reluctance to drop the misrep was scummy.

Mara claimed that whenever she accused me of being scum she was right about it, the foundation for her whole push here in getting people to trust her when she said I was scum.

Yet there isn't a single example except for a game where my win con was to act scummy. So it was a total misrep which when I called bullshit on it I was further attacked for doing so.

After all that shit it's vindicating to me that I was right and the case was baseless and a lie.

[Tammy]

And I don't know if you realize this, but I do actually hold your scum game to a higher standard than you do for yourself. Believe it or not, I read you as town in Open 501 for most of the game (and even Regfan did too). I *think* I misread you in the Red Wedding too but I'm not sure since I focused mostly on my Reck scumread while following it. So go fuck yourself if you think this paranoia is fake because I can assure you that it is very very real.

I get part of that. I still don't understand why you would be paranoid of me in this game, especially when the people who were *in* those games with me, and were fooled by me, aren't exhibiting that paranoia. What strikes me as odd is that you have been fooled by Nacho before but you're not exhibiting any signs of paranoia about him.

But if you are just seriously paranoid, go back and read those games. After 501 when Regfan and I talked about the game and he told me that he was reading me as town until read on Tierce seemed off, he said that my scum game has improved but that tonally there's still a big difference. When I told you that, you agreed. So, no matter if my scum game has improved, and I thank you for the compliment if you actually think my scum game isn't super obvious, I can't fake a town one. Maybe one day I could, but I can't not now, not even close.

And fucking lol at you saying that I'm not allowed to be indignant while you are. If you could stop bring self-absorbed for maybe ten fucking seconds then MAYBE you'd see that I'm also asking you these things to field your reactions because I want to be more certain of you because sorting you out early is my #1 priority.

I can't stop being self-absorbed; it's who I am. I didn't say that you are not allowed to be indignant. I'm saying that you can't be indignant at me for not just reading you as town while at the same time questioning me. Because you are not understanding that maybe I have the same doubts you are. You can't go "how dare you not see me as town" and then turn around and go "I'm not confident in my town read on you." That's my point. And you also don't get to tell me that MAYBE I'm asking you things to field your reactions, and then not recognize that I also asked you questions to field your reactions to sort out my read on you. I even literally said that. I told you you were feeling weird to me. After your reaction, I said that I had hoped for that type of reaction. Instead of recognizing that, you went OH MY GOD WAIT WHY AREN'T YOU BEING INDIGNANT? when I made it clear that I liked your reaction. And instead of recognizing what I said to Bert that the problem lay with me and that I was having a weird day, which I shouldn't need to explain you know that yesterday was the first real day at my new job and that I was nervous about it so me feeling weird just in life in general and it maybe bleeding into the game, should be something that you should recognize. Not only that but i've referenced how stupid my paranoia of you was in yoloville more than once, so why would I get indignant. I have no problem recognizing maybe when I'm wrong and when a product of my paranoia is me and not someone else. This is not something new and is exhibited through several games.

And finally, there is literally, postively no way I'd play this way as scum or interact with you like this at all as scum. Why wouldn't I just coast on by hardtownreading you and just filing you away? Why the fuck would I even try this shit?

And you're suggesting there's the possibility that I would interact with you this way if I were scum? That I would have started the game interacting with you the way I did if I were scum?

Literally posting this from my phone at dinner with my friends and now my night's hampered. If you don't think I'm obvious fucking town after this, then you need to hand in your badge because you're off the fucking force which is sad because I have objectively the worst scum game on this site (my last completed scum game being over a year ago now).

The thing is empire, i was satisfied last night. I liked your reaction to me saying that you were feeling weird. I said that. I didn't like how angry you seemed to get about why you started a wagon on gaiden, but I thought your reaction to me read town. I thought you'd recognize that. And then you came out with what you came out with today and had me scratching my head so hard I didn't know what to think.

And sorry, you don't get to tell me to hand in my badge for not hard town reading you when you can't see why I'm obviously town. You can't sorry.

[Bert]

unvote,

crawling in a corner... someone let me know when the metanonsense stops and give me a kick

Oh shush

OK, Bert's first scumread for the game. Wow Bert why are you so slow. OK I did not like Peacebringer but I couldn't point my finger on why.

Anywho...

we look to be getting a good dual run up now with generic and gaiden...
welcome bert...

You keep giving us recaps and not really adding anything new.

I believe he is being overly defensive and reactive for the circumstances.

I agree. Don't really think he needs to claim though.

Then you agree with what other people are saying.

also super defensive over a post that is fishing... yup, comfortable wtih the generic vote.

Your vote has been parked on Generic pretty much for the entire duration of the game. I asked Nacho this, and now I'm asking you - where's the oomph or gumption behind your votes or play in this game so far... You're just taking a seat in the corner and watching all this meta stuff play out, and then you complain about "OH MY GOD IM GONNA COME BACK WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER"

Meta's part of the game. Deal with it.

I've been searching this game for scumreads over the past day or so, and I'm leaning scum on you. Gut doesn't like you; your posts don't really convince my brain otherwise. I've been searching for some semblance of content or scumhunting in your play. I don't see it. I also upon several re-reads/skims didn't remember a thing about you other than not liking you. That is a problem. Let's get you talking.

VOTE: Peacebringer