Newbie 1419 - GAME OVER

[Flammus]

It's sooo quiet here. People really need to post before our mod starts prodding a third of our town.

Wants disscussion to continue. +1 town point.

on that note neither is "too scummy to be scum"

I'll this just in case. Don't just vote verbs. Please declare intent and allow him to make a case. Early mislynches will only serve to hurt us in the long run.

He uses "us" and doesnt want a quickhammer. Probably a "of course. thats obvious to say that" to most of you guys, but it sits well with me.

[Shiidaji]

Shii, you don't know how I work.

I'm not a clear, concise, detailed and methodical person

I wing things

I like meta

Oh, I know your kind of player ns, but even your type has a clear thought process with their actions that can be explained later - Winging things doesn't work if you can't. You say you picked up on something from my response to the Nacho vote - Elaborate. Just because

you

play in the vein of Fate doesn't mean we do, and if you start explaining things we can work together much better. What have you picked up on Nacho from him ignoring you?
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My titus scumread is dissipating a little bit, moving to nullscum as I like his responses to notscience at the end of page 6, 140 in particular has me re-thinking, I feel townvibes coming from that smiley use.
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Post 111 (the infamous "3 > 2" post) is posted entirely from the assumption that m-m is town, yet tries to paint m-m as scum for it. Also the post analyses whether or not the gambit is good for town, not whether or not it comes from a scummy mindset.
Verbs is scum, let's lynch.

I don't see that logic, I only see my version of the argument. Don't really like your argument, but we agree on Verbs, I suppose. Not sure I like this slot as much anymore.
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Gaiden townread has dropped to null at the bottom of page 6, I get a general feeling of activity from him but I don't 'FEEL' him being that townish anymore.
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i don't agree that post111 is assuming that mail is town, i wrote it to list the positives and the negatives that the gambit has on the game. im using positives here to distinguish things that help the town, whereas negatives are things that help the mafia team. why do you think that i am scum? is it because of the first sentence of the above quoted section? because if so i don't understand where you found an assumption within that post that you mention and without that assumption i don't see how you reach the conclusion that i am scum.

Nacho, Here's the thing about Verbs, and what I was stressing:

He listed positives and negatives of the gambit, then instead of showing a logical thought process of reasoning out which side is heavier, he simply put 3 > 2. That's a perfect way to do something you want as scum, considering how easy it is to just add/remove reasoning to suit you. Say he just pulled two more reasons of his ass to make it 3 < 4, he just as easily could have painted Mail as town, with little to no effort. I don't feel town would come up with this method of deciding on who is scummy and who isn't, do you get what I'm saying?
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Shiidaji - what "further comments" would you like? Just because I haven't made a post that consolidates all my thoughts, I'd be surprised if you couldn't figure out where I stood with most people.

More content to read you off of in general, since upon rereading I wavered on my read of you.
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@Titus

Although, my new analysis of the gambit gives you a slight town read instead of the initial scum-read I had earlier.

I'm inexperienced, my original reads don't mean jack.

SE voice:

Do not qualify something by lack of experience. Seasoned players will do that anyway and you've given players a reason to ignore you. Sometimes new players get it right, sometimes new players get it wrong.

I apologize. I didn't mean for you guys to ignore my initial reads. I just wanted for you to realize that my current reads may have changed considerably since then.

This is a good example of why Brian is town, I feel. He has malleable reads, that's especially important as a newbie since newscum would be afraid of suddenly changing their opinion, thinking it would attract attention.
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Verbs, do you have a claim for us? Or do you believe it is too early for you to claim? You are at L-1 after all.

Despite my above posting about Titus, this still feels pretty slimy, especially considering Titus is an SE. Early asking for claims on page 7, even in a newbie, isn't something I can say has ever crossed my mind whenever I'm town.
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notscience, I take you as an aggressive player. If this is true why are you so sensitive about early lynches? I'm not a fan of them either, but you're extremely vocal about it and it feels strange coming from you, it's not like we're

actually

going to quicklynch shit.
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If you read closely you'll see I actually want him lynched, but you know, procedure and all...

: )
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I already gave him heat, because both of you wanting a claim and a hammer this early is mad as hell.

How you all are "confident" he's scum is beyond me, especially given his activity.

Hell, we don't even have a formal reads list from him.

Yes, he is scummy.

No, he shouldn't be lynched this fast.

@The bolded, aren't you a guy who 'wings' it? Tell me about your playstyle again, I thought that you're the type to trust your gut instincts, where'd the bravado go?

@Nacho sunset, please look up and tell me what you think.
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Nacho, Brian,

what do you think about Gaiden? notscience?
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Find myself agreeing with Nacho w/r/t JKM, about 196 in particular: 'Also why not give this level of heat to Titus for asking for a claim?" has me feeling uncomfortable.
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unvote

Flammus what is your read on me?

[Amrun]

VC 1.6

(2) Titus - Verbs, JKMatthews
(1) Flammus - Brian Skies
(1) JKMatthews - Nachomamma8
(1) Nachomamma8 - notscience
(1) Verbs - SXTLHGaiden


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Not Voting: Flammus, Titus, Shiidaji

V/LA:

Deadline: Tuesday, August 27, 12pm EDT

Spoiler: Vote History

SXTLHGaiden

- notscience > mail-mi > Verbs

Shiidaji

Medoner

- mail-mi > unvote

Verbs

- Titus

Flammus

mail-mi

- mail-mi > unvote

Brian Skies

advocatus

- Medoner > unvote > mail-mi

JKMatthews

- mail-mi > Titus > Brian Skies > Verbs > Titus

Titus

- JKMatthews > notscience > Verbs > unvote

notscience

- Nachomamma8 > Titus > Nachomamma8

Nachomamma8

- Verbs > JKMatthews

If you spot any mistakes, please let me know.

[Brian Skies]

Sorry for the late post. Was waiting for the replacement and lost track of time. I'll read over what's happened and state my thought.

[Flammus]

Also, if you have any assumptions regarding jailors and roleblockers, mention them now. When I came here, assuming the wrong things greatly derailed my first scum game as jkmatthews can attest.

Titus, yeah that really was your undoing in that game. So... if you're town you'd think it was possible m-m was scum... so why give this friendly bit of advice to help scum not slip?

This is a newbie game to help people understand the mechanics. It would feel greatly wrong to take advantage of a newbie's deficiencies in a newbie game when that happened to myself and I felt it was a little unfair. So yeah, I have no hard feelings but it doesn't mean I need to recreate the cycle.

I feel like this is just a good thing to do. This game is for learning, and if a newbie is scum and has no idea what is happening, then it's gonna be no fun for them.

If this train is bad, I want to turn it around ASAP. If not, then I don't want Verbs to have time to think about his claim.

I'm getting great feels from this one. Being wary of a mislynch and wanting to prevent one is town, because by theory the mafia doesn't care who gets lynched. As long as it isn't them.

You seem to be committed to voting near randomly, so your vote has little meaning.

A vote is a vote, and always has meaning. Unless he truly just used random.org to pick a target, then he has a reason. It may be small and subtle, but it is a reason. It's our job to get it out of him now.

Shii, all your posts are detailed and have good content. As far as I'm concerned, your my best town read so far. I'll reread your ISO to make sure I'm not being hasty, but so far so good.

[notscience]

Wants disscussion to continue. +1 town point.

That's a null thing.

And Shii, that's the thing.

My gut isn't pinging hard about him and people are decreeing he's scum and want him to claim.

[Brian Skies]

After reading through, these are my new reads.

Nacho

- Townread. I asked for more content, and Nacho responded in kind. I agree with most, if not all, of his content. Furthermore, Nacho invites more discussion which I find to be extremely beneficial to town.

Shiidaji

- Townread. Mostly the same as Nacho. Points out many things that I have noticed, but is better able to clearly define his thoughts.

notscience

- Slight townread. If she is truly the type of player she claims to be, then I will have a lot of trouble reading her (based on own experiences). However, even random players have to play this game logically at some point. At the very least, her recent actions give off a pro-town vibe for me.

lettersGaiden

- Nullread. I originally felt a good vibe from lettersGaiden, but the recent lack of activity makes me concerned (especially when you remember how she won her first game). But from the same note, my recent lack of activity would make me suspicious as well. It seems that a lot of her posts are used more to dodge prods than actually being beneficial to the town.

titus

- Nullread. I currently have him wavering back and forth on my spectrum of townies and scum. He has his moments where I believe he is town and he is making pro-town plays. Then he goes and makes an L-1 and asks for a claim.

Flammus

- Nullread. This is based on the slot, not Flammus himself. I believe the gambit would be considered "pro-town." However, M-M's actions didn't seem to support this. I expressed concerns, but with M-M's recent departure, I guess I will never know.

Verbs

- Slight scumread. In my opinion, his analysis on the gambit is still flawed. However, having terrible logic doesn't necessarily make a person scum (purposely flawing the logic, on the other hand, is different). I still don't see the supposed push on M-M that other people claimed.

JKM

- Slight scumread. At first, he had pretty consistent reasoning for his voting process. Then he avoids a prod dodge with a pretty worthless vote on me (no reasoning, concerns, etc.). When he comes back, he claims Verbs is scum and asks for a lynch. Then when M-M gets replaced, he conveniently uses the excuse that he thought Verbs was getting replaced (not going to argue whether or not this is true).

UNVOTE : FLAMMUS
VOTE : JKM

After M-M disappearing into the abyss, there is now a giant gaping hole in my soul that Flammus will never be able to fill. However, now that M-M is gone, JKM is now the most suspicious to me and I believe he deserves my vote (for now at least).

[Flammus]

I'll give my opinion on the gambit. M M didn't seem like the most expierenced of players. I doubt that he could've pulled a scum self-vote out. It attracts attention and the spotlight to himself, which goes against the general mindset of newbies which is "please don't notice. Please don't ask me any questions". I think his train of thought was "if I self-vote and show the town how I like to move out of RVS, then I'll get town reads."
Now I can just hear someone saying "get town reads? WTF! Why would a town need town reads? Obviously it's scum needing to avoid suspicion." But it's not just scum who need to be recognized by town. The whole town all bandwagoning a town player does no good for the overall town game.
This whole post problaby made no sense, but I'm tired. I don't know why exactly he used that gambit, and all we can do is speculate. My point is, usually a self-vote should be a red flag. But in a newbie game, where he said (I'm pretty sure he said this) that he played on other websites, then it might be an acceptable strategy there. He problaby didn't know the negativity it would bring him, but it DID get the game rolling.

[JKMatthews]

JKM

- Slight scumread. At first, he had pretty consistent reasoning for his voting process. Then he avoids a prod dodge with a pretty worthless vote on me (no reasoning, concerns, etc.). When he comes back, he claims Verbs is scum and asks for a lynch. Then when M-M gets replaced, he conveniently uses the excuse that he thought Verbs was getting replaced (not going to argue whether or not this is true).[/b]

A few things. A "prod dodge" is exactly that. A post to say "I'm aware I'm still in the game and it's going on, but I don't have time to post any real content". Calling me scum for not posting content in a post that by its very nature is saying "I know there's not content here" is sketchy at best.
No denying that I was keen for some Verbs pressure.
Then, in response to the replacement request:

Ugh, get his replacement to claim then kill it!

I'm clearly asking for a single slot to be forced to claim and then lynched. I can't be talking about the Verbs slot, because it was never being replaced. I can't be talking about the m-m slot, because I never wanted it to be lynched. So clearly I made a mistake. The statement is complete nonsense otherwise.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to suspect me that I'm happy to address, but your post really reads like you're just trying to make up reasons to join the popular wagon.
All your reads seem to be taking the safe option of what the majority thinks.

As for the general question of "If it was Verbs being replaced, why was I so eager for a lynch?", it's because I've seen replacements being given essentially a clean slate too many times. They come in, say "I dunno what that guy was doing!", give a bunch of reads, and people lose interest. It was simply my way of encouraging those who were suspicious to remain suspicious (and trying to encourage people to still be ok to lynch if they were thinking about it).

[Titus]

I am really liking Flammus's recent posts. In particular his response to my 218 and 232. I like 218 because I sometimes can be very dismissive of behaviors when I feel there is no evidence there. It's a flaw that I do need to work on. 232 has a good chunk of theory but it also gives a decent explanation of how Flammus feels about the gambit and the theory cannot be separated from the explanation so it is excusable.

Brian's comments about both himself and Letters Garden seem to be coming from a place similar to my own, like I expected. I would cede the points I know must be ceded and he has done so before even being attacked for his perceived lack of inactivity. That being said, neither of the players seem that inactive to me, so Brian's argument is valid but not sound. I'm much more worried about Verbs's disappearing act.

Mod, can we get a prod?

Shiidaji seems to have a set of expectations for normal and abnormal play. That might be a problem. I do proceed logically but I tend not to always follow social norms. I'm leaning town here.


@JKM, That was a pretty big overreaction to me giving a slight town read to M-M's slot if you never had any intention of getting M-M lynched.

[Amrun]

Once again, I do not prod unless the person is within prod range. Verbs isn't.

[JKMatthews]

@JKM, That was a pretty big overreaction to me giving a slight town read to M-M's slot if you never had any intention of getting M-M lynched.

What are you talking about here? What was an overreaction?

[Titus]

Your reaction at the start. You and notscience seemed to be real quick to attack on me when I gave a slight town read on M-M due to his gambit. I find that inconsistent with then arguing you never wanted him lynched.

[JKMatthews]

Why does early suspicion have to lead to a lynch? Also, I think you're confusing the issue - that line of enquiry was because I was more suspicious of

you

for giving the townread.

[notscience]

VOTE: shii

[SXTLHGaiden]

^ care to elaborate.

[SXTLHGaiden]

I don't like naked votes.

[notscience]

I don't either!

[Titus]

Why does early suspicion have to lead to a lynch? Also, I think you're confusing the issue - that line of enquiry was because I was more suspicious of

you

for giving the townread.

Why? Disagreement does not means suspicious. Why would you react that way if you had no intention to see mm lynched? It looks like you really did and were pushing that hard which is in contrast to your later post.

[JKMatthews]

I was suspicious of you because giving the townread didn't make sense. I couldn't see town motivation behind it, there's was a possibility you were trying to make an early friend, so I followed that line of enquiry...
And I would react that way because following leads and applying pressure with aggression is an effective way of scumhunting and generating discussion that early in the game. It sickens me to basically have to say "because I'm doing townie things" - why do I have to spell that out for you?

[Verbs]

VOTE: gaiden

pretty reactive player in terms of producing content.

[notscience]

^?

[SXTLHGaiden]

Yeah... i'm confused too.

[notscience]

It just looks like an RVS vote

[Titus]

@JKM, Really, you cannot see town motivation behind analyzing players early? If you didn't want MM lynched, like you claimed, then you just immediately turned your attention to the first player to post content and attacked. That doesn't make much sense either.

@Verbs, explain now please.