Now that I'm finally back, let's play the "why this is bullshit and varsoon needs to get his head out of his ass" game.
In post 1700, Faster Than Light wrote:TRUST FUND : 178 POSTS : SCUM
WHY: Trust Fund’s contributions to the game are high-noise and low content, often sheeping out popular and pushable wagons such as Mastin, Skull, and me.
Quote the posts. Since you skipped doing a post by post breakdown, actually, just the numbers are fine, but go quote/list where exactly I merely sheeped without having my own reasons.
Post 1077 really epitomizes this, as the kill list goes for days on people who town is iffy about/has a current scummy read on. TF doesn’t broker wagons or even do significant scum hunting, but just sits in the thread, gut reacts to posts, and passes off reads that magically change and come out of nowhere when it’s convenient to the hydra to have someone in the scum or town slot.
This post?
In post 1077, Trust Fund wrote:Syr's "cabd just post this shit I'm going to bed" reads list:
Town as fuck:
3. BeautyAndTheBeast (pirate mollie + Majiffy) - HELLO MOLLIE HAVE SOME COOKIES WITH ME
11. thezmon221 Nachopappa - you, I like you.
5. Desperado - lots of goodwalls and content. Little misguided on who needs to die today, but he's town.
12. Malakittens nhammen - HI MISS YOU CAN HAVE COOKIES TOO
19. Trust Fund (Cabd + Syryana) - TAG POWAHS
20. Venmar - It's venny, what's not to love
1. Aj The Epic - I read like three posts in this dude's ISO and went "town"
8. Mac - I don't have the words for how town this guy is
People trying to be cool people, and not quite there:
18. TiphaineDeath - didnt like him early, newer shit is good shit
17. Sound of Silence (fferyllt + GuyInFreezer) - hello fery, earn your townread harder pls
Kill this just cuz:
14. notscience - VI's always die
6. Faster Than Light (Varsoon + Metal Sonic) - shitlord and lurkaderp, what's not to vig
Rope needs to be on fire:
2. Andrius - your posting makes me sad
9. mastin2 - my bathroom is cleaner than this guy
15. RachMarie - that fence rides, doesn't it
Would not cry if dead:
16. Skullduggery - she's got like 2 posts, and they suck
7. Ghostlin - something feels off
I don't fucking know, and that bugs me:
4. BROseidon - he's being weird with this liar tell shit
10. Nachomamma8 - your posts suck nacho, where's the love
13. nickthename - this dude and the other dude i dont care enough about right now
21. zMuffinMan - this is the other dude
Because that was a pretty substantial reads list that was a result of our sync up, aka "syr finally starts paying the goddamn game" and I could say the same about your shit reads list.
MS agrees on the points about insubstantial and loud contributions and posits that TF has a lot of fluff and he has no clue who Sasha is.
MS edit: I later realize that sasha is cabd
If that is the case then cabd has lots of explaining to do(because this is poor considering my high expectations from him)
Vars Edit: I think Sasha is supposed to be Syrana?
Yeah not like I talked about who was who super early or anything. Oh, wait.
PS: I'm not voting yet, deal with it. Syr needs to have time to post troll gifs first.
So how about you ask me real questions instead of "derp cabd has some explaining to do" because your entire reason for scumreading me is shittier than your custom title.
majiffy wrote:... Except there's nothing absurd whatsoever with my theory, counterwagons and splitting up wagons is a common scum tactic in games.
No, I'm not saying it's an absurd theory in that it couldn't happen, but that it's an absurd theory if you're saying that
is what's happening
- if you're basing your vote on nick on a theory like that, then I'm calling it absurd. And I could just as easily make up an absurd theory for why the RM wagon is stalling (it's on scum, scum don't want to bus, if she was town, she'd have been lynched already, etc).
majiffy wrote:
(1)
Because RM can be scatter-brained in games with high activity like this. And that explains the first two.
(2)
I'm assuming your argument on the third probably relies on the first two being some kind of alignment-indicative sticking point.
(1) OK. At least you're acknowledging that these reasons apply to RM just as much as nick, so that's a start. The only problem I have here is that you're differentiating between nick and RM because you apparently know RM can do this as town, but you're not sure whether nick does this as town. If you know someone can do this as town, why are these reasons to find nick suspicious and not RM?
(2) The third has to do with, for example, the questions both of them have been asking (whereas nick has been asking questions that actually pertain to scum hunting, like questioning people when their reads differ from his, or asking for explanations of cases, etc, RM has been primarily asking useless questions that didn't have anything to do with her reads or getting a better idea of the thought processes of the people she's questioning) and the way each of them has gone about pursuing their reads (whereas nick has been making cases and giving reasons for his thought processes throughout the game, RM has given two weak scum reads and then gave really, really poor justification for voting Andrius). How easily I can follow the thought processes of a player, and how genuine it looks, is how I discern town motivation from scum motivation. Is it different for you, or do you simply disagree with my assessment?
In post 1158, Sound of Silence wrote:BRO - leaning scum. He looks really uncomfortable wearing the scum-win mantle, which could be coming from a townish place. But, I'm not seeing the well defined observations and really spot-on quote-and-call-out posts that I associate with his play. Everything is kind of mushy and even inaccurate (e.g., the comment about GiF/me not posting much).
In post 579, zMuffinMan wrote:Mac isn't a controversial read. Only you and TD are reading her as scum, and you're both wrong about it. If I need to go over why, I will later. Currently in the process of doing something else at the moment that requires much more of my attention.
As for FTL, the back-and-forth with the MS head is what gave me the town read, and again if I need to go into more detail, later.
...Ignores that I am also scumreading Mac.
The general ease with which people are handing out townreads is making me nervous, given that I abused the fuck out of that last game to coast to the win.
Now that I'm fully caught up, I would be down for wagoning Mac or Rach. I could easily want to wagon Mala depending on what she posts when she comes in.
VOTE: Mac
Everyone took meta from that game and used the shit out of it in their ongoings. This is just another ongoing.
I'm thinking about day 1 and I'm not seeing a lot of parallels in reactions to the negative utility PGO claim vs the first game's miller claim.
MS, Varsoon, Cabd, Ghostlin, Majiffy, and Nacho's 1 substantive post. None of them look like they are trying to reprise how they played early in Xeno 1.
You could argue that mollie is, but it just looks like her usual town game to me so far.
In post 979, Trust Fund wrote:This list? Mostly okay with it, I'm with giffy about skull. Nhammen/mala slot is something I'd like to sort myself, with you there. I've heard several other people call bro scum but not your reasonings yet I think, unless I missed it in my skim. Why?
My reasons are mostly tone/motivation related. He sounded uncomfortable and like he's trying too hard to acknowledge while distancing himself from his role in the first xeno game in his early posts. And I feel like he's overreacted a little here and there, including his reaction to my FoS, which generated a spread-out multi-post no u.
I find this post slightly amusing for we're the second most posted player in this game.
In post 1158, Sound of Silence wrote:You could ISO us and ctl-f and probably find what you are looking for. But, a quick summary goes like this
BRO - leaning scum. He looks really uncomfortable wearing the scum-win mantle, which could be coming from a townish place. But, I'm not seeing the well defined observations and really spot-on quote-and-call-out posts that I associate with his play. Everything is kind of mushy and even inaccurate (e.g., the comment about GiF/me not posting much).
Mastin - Null. I see why people are reading him as scum, but I'm not there right now. He looks like town having a bad hair day, basically, and I can think of a couple recent games where I really struggled to get a handle on the game on day 1 (and beyond). That's what I feel like I'm seeing with Mastin.
BnB - Town. Mollie is totally town. Majiffy's reads list looks town to me, and I liked the way he broke up the TD flash wagon.
TF - I'm very cautious about the Cabd head of this hydra (the one who's been most active. I think there have been 2-3 Syr posts, though his reads list shows that he's following along and discussing the game with Cabd). Earlier, when Cabd was actively reaching out for data - reads and impressions - I thought that looked pretty town. Now that he's in the mode of herding votes onto his preferred wagon(s) I'm a little paranoid.
GiF thinks Mala's aggressive, even angry at times, play looks town. I'm not there, not yet anyway.
I'm not sure that he would be less cautious as scum this game and more likely to miss things like that. What do you think of his push on you for a liar tell?
I feel like you're not really addressing the more substantive point there.
I thought it was pretty dumb. And I thought it was odd that he didn't push harder if he was serious about me dropping a liar tell.
In post 1192, Sound of Silence wrote:You could ISO us and ctl-f and probably find what you are looking for. But, a quick summary goes like this
BRO - leaning scum. He looks really uncomfortable wearing the scum-win mantle, which could be coming from a townish place. But, I'm not seeing the well defined observations and really spot-on quote-and-call-out posts that I associate with his play. Everything is kind of mushy and even inaccurate (e.g., the comment about GiF/me not posting much).
Mastin - Null. I see why people are reading him as scum, but I'm not there right now. He looks like town having a bad hair day, basically, and I can think of a couple recent games where I really struggled to get a handle on the game on day 1 (and beyond). That's what I feel like I'm seeing with Mastin.
BnB - Town. Mollie is totally town. Majiffy's reads list looks town to me, and I liked the way he broke up the TD flash wagon.
TF - I'm very cautious about the Cabd head of this hydra (the one who's been most active. I think there have been 2-3 Syr posts, though his reads list shows that he's following along and discussing the game with Cabd). Earlier, when Cabd was actively reaching out for data - reads and impressions - I thought that looked pretty town. Now that he's in the mode of herding votes onto his preferred wagon(s) I'm a little paranoid.
GiF thinks Mala's aggressive, even angry at times, play looks town. I'm not there, not yet anyway.
BRO's the only one I didn't mention in my reads post, but I'm kind of on the same page. There's some warping of perceptions that are going on with his reads/posts that ring wrong to me. The words 'horribly inaccurate' spring to mind.
I understand why you're torn about Mastin from a certain perspective, but if you trust I'm town(ish), trust me on my Mastin read.
Alright. Yeah, TF rang the wrong bells with his interaction with Skull that I will continue to bore this game to fucking death with. There's getting votes and then there's letting players get away with crap they shouldn't.
GiF: I think Mala's aggressive, angry play seems to be coming from the perspective of hyper-defensiveness you can see in certain scum.
I can see where you're coming from. I understand your reads, and I think we're close enough to the same page I don't think we'd be shouting each other down.
Our mala read is evolving. So is our rach read.
nick is in our kinda town pile. I may be making a really really thin soup from the newbie game we played together a while back, but if I have enough data to cobble together a sketchy model I like to try, and like to see if it turns out to be useful.
He spent the early game saying there was scum on the TD wagon, and then did nothing to really dissect it (except name a few names, which later changed anyway). I also think the way in which he wrote TD off as town purely for the speed of the wagon was fake. He later adds that TD's "trajectory" on mac was part of the reason, but none of this was mentioned in BRO's early posts calling TD town. He literally said the speed of the wagon alone makes TD town.
Also his posts are essentially void of content. Take 267 for example. If you really break down the things he's saying there, it's all empty bullshit. I don't sense any real scum hunting ther. It looks like he was just commenting on stuff for the sake of commenting on stuff and making up fake reads based on whatever, which relates to what SoS was talking about when he described them as mushy and sometimes inaccurate.
One thing that GiF and I have talked about but I'm not sure made it into the thread is BRO's trajectory stuff on TD. He claimed TD had good trajectory on Mac, but his posts in response to Nacho pushing him for details was a case on Mac, not really much about how TD's read on Mac progressed.
It looked kinda like he overstated TD's progression and rather than acknowledging that, built up reasons why a vote on Mac at that point would be justified.
That could be a pretty uncharitable characterization on my part, but I think Nacho was also dissatisfied with that convo.
In post 2102, zMuffinMan wrote:No, I'm not saying it's an absurd theory in that it couldn't happen, but that it's an absurd theory if you're saying that
is what's happening
- if you're basing your vote on nick on a theory like that, then I'm calling it absurd. And I could just as easily make up an absurd theory for why the RM wagon is stalling (it's on scum, scum don't want to bus, if she was town, she'd have been lynched already, etc).
I'm basing my vote on nick because he's a scumbutt. I'm supporting the wagon based on the fact that his wagon just can't seem to gain any traction despite plenty of support.
In post 2102, zMuffinMan wrote:
(1) OK. At least you're acknowledging that these reasons apply to RM just as much as nick, so that's a start. The only problem I have here is that you're differentiating between nick and RM because you apparently know RM can do this as town, but you're not sure whether nick does this as town. If you know someone can do this as town, why are these reasons to find nick suspicious and not RM?
... Because one instance =/= everyone?
Someone can reliably do things as town that are generally scummy. Rach is one of these people.
That's why people are calling her lynchbait.
Herp a derp.
In post 2102, zMuffinMan wrote:
(2) The third has to do with, for example, the questions both of them have been asking (whereas nick has been asking questions that actually pertain to scum hunting, like questioning people when their reads differ from his, or asking for explanations of cases, etc, RM has been primarily asking useless questions that didn't have anything to do with her reads or getting a better idea of the thought processes of the people she's questioning) and the way each of them has gone about pursuing their reads (whereas nick has been making cases and giving reasons for his thought processes throughout the game, RM has given two weak scum reads and then gave really, really poor justification for voting Andrius). How easily I can follow the thought processes of a player, and how genuine it looks, is how I discern town motivation from scum motivation. Is it different for you, or do you simply disagree with my assessment?
Ask Mollie if she can dig up the last game we played with RachScum and take a look at it. Or look at her town play in general. You're barking up a tree with her.
@B&B : I'd be good with a Nick wagon, but I'm staying put on this Andrius one until it's obvious I can't have it.
@Saki : Why don't you read and get some substantive reads on everyone? Just saying you'll hammer anyone doesn't give town much to go on, and makes you seem too uninvolved.
-V
This is a Hydra of Metal Sonic and Varsoon. Be prepared.
In post 2047, Faster Than Light wrote:MyScum:
Andrius (I want this one most)
Trust Fund (Lots of info to get here, too)
nickthename
(pretty low on my list, tbh)
thezmon (Same as nick--I don't want to lynch them without D2 info and a flip/NK to inform. Mac and Desperado fall in those places, too, but I definitely won't see them lynched D1.)
: AJ: I'm not sure it's lack of posts of lack of him saying something useful, but AJ stays in this kind of dangerous spot. Nothing's he's said has struck me one way or another.
Nickthename
: I'm agnostic about Nick. Everything I've read -sounds- Town, but I see other players don't like him, and like AJ, I'm not impressed.
In post 1256, Trust Fund wrote:Of the people on that wagon, I have townreads on everyone excepting Skull, nick, BRO. So if there's scum in there, it would be in those three. Which ones? Don't know yet.
Neither of these have strong town feelings for nick. It would not be hard to garner these votes at a deadline lynch. If we include these with the above 8 scum reads, we total 10 votes;
it only takes 11 to lynch. However, the nick wagon has stalled at 3.
Why is that?
One theory proposed is that the active players have voiced town reads on Nick. Lets look at the town reads;
Spoiler: Town Readings (6): RachMarie, SoS, TiphaneDeath, Muffin, Desperado, BROseidon
In post 1381, RachMarie wrote:13. nickthename--- Not much experience with this dude, though he did very well as scum in a skype mafia game and I did not realize he was scum even in LYLO so watching this dude carefully.... Leaning town but watching....
In post 2090, zMuffinMan wrote:Actually a wagon on nick never developed because some of the more vocal players have either called nick town (like myself)
In post 1021, Desperado wrote:nick's content and engagement with the thread has him in my townpile.
So we have a weak read by Rach, a "kinda town" by SoS, strong support from TD, Muffin, Desperado and BRO.
That means of the 4 strong-nick-town votes, there is a massive 293 collective posts. Beyond that; if you check the ISOs, only half of these 6 total town-reading-nick players have mounted any kind of legitimate defense / argument for nick-town.
Which brings us to the rest of the playerlist;
Spoiler: Other (4): Malakittens, Mutley, Saki, Mac
In post 756, Malakittens wrote:Really Nick? Do you not like that Mollie and Fery are trying to communicate reads together. Does this make scum you not able to force fake scum reads and push their wagons?
Mala has largely ignored any and all questions about Nick, and has interacted minimally with the slot. This is about the extent of it.
No stance from Mutley, Saki, Mac
For shame, you four.
So, with 10 pretty-much-guaranteed votes on Nick, and only 11 to lynch, why has this wagon stalled at 3 votes, while other wagons have had no problems growing and dying out naturally? No one wants to talk about nick. When he's brought up, people just kind of ... ignore it.
I posit nick is scum, he's got at least one or two bussers, and the rest of his team is hiding in the null/no-opinion categories with a MaybeRach for her epic fence sitting.
In post 2113, Faster Than Light wrote:@B&B : I'd be good with a Nick wagon, but I'm staying put on this Andrius one until it's obvious I can't have it.
Hey mate; it's obvious. You can't have it.
Support for Andylynch has completely petered out. Blame it on AtE, but he isn't happening today. Help me get this nick wagon moving so we can start hunting down his teammates next.
In post 2113, Faster Than Light wrote:@Saki : Why don't you read and get some substantive reads on everyone? Just saying you'll hammer anyone doesn't give town much to go on, and makes you seem too uninvolved.
i don't neeeed coaching
and i like hammers
I'll even hammer my townreads
retired
LoL - Atlantica / Viera Assassin (NA)
FFXIV - Seiina Araki of
bnb wrote:Someone can reliably do things as town that are generally scummy. Rach is one of these people.
The thing with tells is if they don't apply universally, then they aren't reliable tells, and thus shouldn't be used in a case against someone (except maybe as extra evidence to go along with a real case).
You can't just say, "well A does X, and B does X, but A does X is town... B is still scummy for doing X"
Logic doesn't work that way.
bnb wrote:Or look at her town play in general.
I have. I gave my thoughts on the town game she herself linked in this game, in a back-and-forth with her that ended when with me telling her that, in this game, she's not doing what she did as town in the game she linked.
bnb wrote:One theory proposed is that the active players have voiced town reads on Nick.
No, I said "vocal" players. I probably should have elaborated that I meant people who were actually putting out analysis in decent volume as opposed to people who were merely calling people scum/town without really elaborating on their reads.
It's hard to really push a lynch through when you don't have a case vs people who are analysing posts and questioning the cases (or lack thereof).
bnb wrote:why has this wagon stalled at 3 votes, while other wagons have had no problems growing and dying out naturally?
This is actually something I commented on much earlier in the game when I was talking with mastin in one of my posts. I cbf going back and finding which one specifically, but I said I really didn't know why the wagon was stalling if I'm right about nick and who was on the wagon at the time, but I thought it might have something to do with the lack of cases or the people opposing it at the time. It would also make sense if there were different town wagons occurring at the time. And it would also make sense if a majority of scum weren't all that active in the game (which actually coincides with who I think is scum, so I like this theory).
bnb wrote:only half of these 6 total town-reading-nick players have mounted any kind of legitimate defense / argument for nick-town.
I imagine if I look through the ISOs of the people who have said nick is either scum or maybescum, the amount of people making a case is basically.... FTL? Off the top of my head, he's the only one who has legitimately analysed nick's posts and said why he think's nick is scum, and that was only relatively recently, when the Andrius/RM wagons were the main ones.
Yeah I'm going through the ISOs of the people you have listed as calling nick scum.
- mastin has no case on nick. at all.
- Your case on nick is (was originally) that his reads are bad and he's playing "hyper-aggressive" which apparently makes him scum because he's done this in skype mafia games.
- AJ had nick as scum for "bad" votes and I talked with AJ a little about what I thought of this (specifically, that I didn't think he was analysing the motivation behind the posts properly)
- FTL's case which came long after the wagon on nick had evaporated (and I've already given my thoughts on that, too)
- Nothing from the rest, really.
If you really,
reeeeeaaaaally
push it, you can maybe call it three cases on nick being scum given in this thread so far, which are all essentially about how "bad" his scum suspects are with little analysis of his actual play.
