Big Brother: HoH Mafia (We have a winner at last)

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

RBD, I don't want a HoH that's tied to a little box, simply because scum can manipulate town opinion, and they can easily drive the town and the game with the A/B nomination method.

Just like any game with a lynch mechanic. Dang pesky lynches!

By all means, let's suggest people to be nominated for the nightly lynch, but let's not bind the HoH to only the popular opinions. When I'm voting for a HoH, I'm voting for someone in the town that I can trust to make that tough decision for the betterment of the town

by themselves.

And there will be plenty of accountability, since we can still say who we voted for on the following day, and we should be questioned on those choices and have to defend them. Thus, the voting and nomination becomes less paint by numbers and more a method for scumhunting.

IF it wasn't for the following rule I may be willing to move on that one:

3.) once the HoH has been selected, night begins. The new HoH has 48 hours to send me two people to be put on the chopping block for eviction. If they cannot decide, I will choose them at random.
4.) Once the two people have been selected, all players have 72 hours to choose who they would like to evict. This is done privately via PMs. Note that the two up for eviction are not eligible to choose.

Im not going to just support a system where we enter night with a "whatever" stance as to who is going up. There is a very distinct difference between what essentially is just a normal lynch and putting up opinions that you don't have to defend until after the lynch has occurred. Reasoning after the fact is rationalizing. We should not be rationalizing lynches. That just allows scum to make votes unchalleneged. If it wasn't a night phase and we still could discuss, meh I still don't like it but don't hate it. No discussion is bad.

We should turn this into an actual normal game the best we can, because the mechanic is not town sided. If we make this a normal game we should be at an advantage as should have been designed with scum having a mild mechanical advantage

[Bulbazak]

How about a compromise? We use FoS's, or whatever, as pseudo-votes. Whoever has the most p-votes by the end of the day is the first one to be nominated. The second one to be nominated is entirely decided by the HoH, which allows them to put one of their own scumreads on the chopping block. There is still accountability, night votes can still be a basis for scumhunting, and we get information based off of this random factor.

[Toogeloo]

There's accountability though with a small box. People who are laying down the FoS's for their pick for the two nominees are at least on record for that. If we start seeing a trend of people in a voting (FOSing) bloc, it also becomes suspicious. There's more to work with when the flips happen than if we get two randoms up on the block that have very little reason to be.

[Toogeloo]

night votes can still be a basis for scumhunting

Night votes are hidden. We'll have no idea who voted who, unless you suspect that everyone will be telling the truth when asked who they voted for.

[Bulbazak]

But the fact of the matter is that they wouldn't be random, or at least they shouldn't be if everyone is legitimately scumhunting. It should be no surprise who the HoH nominates in a scumhunting environment. However, everyone is ignoring what would happen during the scumhunting phase and are jumping straight to imagining a HoH that has not done any scumhunting, which would be untrue.

P-edit: If they don't tell the truth, the HoH will notice the discrepancy, and then we'll have more information PLUS a pool to hunt from.

[Titus]

@Desperado, Why are these posts town? He basically is FoSing me because I refuse to be painted into a corner by popular opinion. He's called me town, misrepped my opposition to a HoH being bound by popular opinion as derailing scumhunting (far from it considering I suggested the FoS voting) to me, his posts are anti town enough for me to

FoS Jake From Rainbow Dash

I know the timing is very OMGUS like but Jake just seems to argue anyone who doesn't agree with him or the popular consensus is scummy.


I really like Bulbazak's idea to have one nominee be totally within the HoH's choosing and the other to be popular FoSing. Once the HoH reveals the nominees, he makes a case for each of them over 24 hours. We then officially hammer him as HoH and move to the night phase.

VOTE: Bulbazak


@Jake, why he hell did you think I vote and left?

[Bulbazak]

Titus, RBD tends to be like that, and he was the one speaking. They're town.

[Titus]

I'll treat the hydras as one person when I speak until they start signing their posts.

As for the conclusions that JRB is town, I'll make a special effort to look for town indicators from them given the people have already vouched for him but I just don't see it yet.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'll treat the hydras as one person when I speak until they start signing their posts.

As for the conclusions that JRB is town, I'll make a special effort to look for town indicators from them given the people have already vouched for him but I just don't see it yet.

I think anypony who actually reads what im writing can tell its me. The spelling, punctuation, disjointed thought process when im not really trying to make it look nice, use of the the word "pony".

Anyways, im calling you scum because you are behaving in such a way that directly removes a great deal of what the strongest aspect the town has is (discussion) by removing the accountability. When I get in games like this (or really almost any game once roles start being claimed) I start trying to see how scum would optimize things and work against it. At the same time I always try and optimize things for the town, even if it make the game more "boring". I would rather win a game then have it be "extra wacky" and lose. Most setups can be optimized, and this is just a method of doing so. Again I pull out Hard Boiled setup. There is the rigid path that is historically and statistically more likely to result in a town in and there is the "free" path that while more stuff goes on, town has a harder time winning.

If we just let a town read dictate the lynches its going to be much easier for scum to take the lynch that will benefit them instead of have to step up and justify their vote. Im fighting hard against you giving us an inferior strategy. 10:4 nightless is MASSIVELY town sided, why try and change it from that?

Also that you basically complained about "nopony is scumhunting" after I called you scum, pushed for a policy lynch, and that PL was supported.

[Titus]

I think you are massively misunderstanding me if you think I am against any form of accountability whatsoever. The FoSes work as accountability. I'm even for a dual nomination where the HoH controls an aspect. However, the scum can and likely will try to mainuplate the will of the group. In no way should the group dictate both HoH nominations.

Revealing the votes gives that accountability. Discussing reasons for why people are scummy is pro-accountability.

You are stating I'm removing the accountability. Hell no. There is a massive misunderstanding here if you think there is a lack of accountability with how I want to proceed.

Please provide an example of where what I'm suggesting lacks accountability.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Please provide an example of where what I'm suggesting lacks accountability.

It has less than my idea.

With mine the "night" phase becomes essentially unnecessary. We know exactly what the final vote count will be, and we know exactly the two who will be up for lynch. The more we don't know what either of those are going to be the more options scum have to make a "convenient" vote.

The unknown and randomness is bane of the town. Its why scum are the INFORMED minority, they know more about things. The less we can keep hidden from the rest of us, especially in a situation where its really easy to put in the open, the better its going to be.

[Titus]

The problem is, if the scum know all the of the votes before nightfalls, they will essentially be in control of who is evicted. This gravely worries me.

Let's say the votes are 8 to 6 to evict Player A. The votes come back 8 to 6 to evict player B. The scum have caused chaos and drama. We have no way of knowing who voted who despite everyone "having it out there".


Even then with my plan of an HoH who isn't beholden to the majority, we'd have time to discuss who the HoH nominated prior to the de facto HoH crowning and nominations. If the scum don't know who is being nominated, they cannot create the scenario I have just described above. If they suddenly start herpalurking after the HoH is selected, then it's obvious they are scums. Blind siding scums is much easier to get them out.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Which is why its better to decide who is going to get lynched, put them and alternative up and lynch the mane target with every vote.

No room for that to happen.

Although that wouldn't be the worst thing in a 8-6 (im assuming you mean 7-5) vote. It confirms at least two of seven are scum and at most two of five.

I mean, I see your point but I just don't trust somepony who is HoH to just lob up their gut suspects instead of the ones everypony else thinks is scum, of that they really really think A is scum so put up A and a really town looking player. We need some very high level of accountability.

Also we really should policy lynch KBW.

[PeaceBringer]

this is going to be interesting...

[Titus]

If KBW doesn't post in 24 hours, we should do that.

I find your theory hard to do in practice. It prevents some tactics such as drawing suspicion as a cop and claiming later. I will reflect on this in the evening.

The alternative should be scummy in their own right in case the target claims an important town role. That's why I want the HoH to at least have the say in one nominee and have some influence as to who the target is.

[Bulbazak]

I thought I'd make things easier for the Type A nominations and keep track of the FoS's (or whatever they're being called). I've gone back and counted everything up, and with this:

FoS Minions

This is how things stand.

FoS Count:

Imperium (0):
Keybladewielder (0):
Titus (1): Jake from Rainbowdash
Minions (1): Bulbazak
Gnomeo (0):
Bulbazak (0):
BBmolla (0):
Peacebringer (0):
Blackberry (0):
Jake from Rainbowdash (1): Titus
ToastyToast (0):
RachMarie (0):
Toogeloo (0):
Desperado (0):

Not FoSing (11): Imperium, Keybladewielder, Minions, Gnomeo, BBmolla, Peacebringer, Blackberry, ToastyToast, RachMarie, Toogeloo, Desperado

We can change the terminology later if we want, but now there is as much accountability for your FoS's than as a vote in a typical game, and the FoS in this game holds a similar role pressure-wise. If anyone else wants to occasionally update this, feel free.

[ToastyToast]

Which is why its better to decide who is going to get lynched, put them and alternative up and lynch the mane target with every vote.

That pun deserves an award.
And honestly I think we have to start steering away from flavor talk now. Everyone is going to want different things. I'm okay with the FoS thing, but if I don't like the main wagon I'm not going to put them up.

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 1.01:

Gnomeo - Minions
Toasty - BBMolla
Jake - Bulb, Desp
bulb - Toasty, Titus

Not Voting - Imperium, keybladewielder, Gnomeo, peacebringer, blackberry, Jake from Rainbow Dash, RachMarie, Toogeloo

With 14 alive it takes 8 to elect an HoH. Currently Jake from State Farm will be elected HoH, as he was brought to N-6 first.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-09-05 12:03:01) or by 11:00 AM on September 5th, 2013

Also, in case it wasn't clear (I may have accidentally deleted it from the ruleset when editing it for this game), days are 2 weeks long, not 3.

[Minions]

First of all,

unvote, vote toogaloo

I can't speak for my brothers but I have always advocated that if you elect a kingmaker you put the decision on their shoulders, it's how you get to then read them through the lynch. Yes, here we have to vote between his/her two options but if you take that decision out of thier hands you get no analysis of them through the choices.
A person willing to put that pressure on the position is a person I trust to make an intelligent one.

And as for bulbazak throwing down an fos on us when I'm the only one to post and it was the RVS first posts of the game... That's either an agenda or thinking we are low hanging fruit. Either way you are on our radar even before I get to the attempt to dictate how we will all handle this unique system.

~ Jerry

[PeaceBringer]

So basically:

We're a group of 14.
Four of us are in an "Alliance" (the mafia).

How I picture this playing out:

All votes for eviction will be private. I propose the next day everyone reveals who they voted for. Everyone must reveal. If there is a discrepancy we will then know Mafia has to do with the discrepancy. Everyone outing their votes will force mafia to WIFOM themselves as to whether to vote together or split their votes, etc. Although I don't know how useful this will be and/or what powers the Mafia may have up their sleeves?

I have a question for the mod. I will ask in private and may or may not reveal publicly depending on the answer.

I also have a proposal for HoH: If the HoH's evicted nominee flips Mafia, we will renominate that HoH as a reward. If the HoH's evicted nominee flips Town, we will select a new HoH. This will pressure the mafia to bus themselves. I think we should use this as a 'standard rule' for the beginning of the game (unless other information comes up).

...

Also, I really like Titus' proposal.

VOTE: Toasty

for now.

Actually, this is Big Brother HOH mafia... if I were to run such a game there would not be only one faction. There would be potential recruitment and other stuff as well. So I am not sold on only one faction.

[PeaceBringer]

Can we not do theory talk, it's boring and unhelpful

Just choose a HoH and then decide who to lynch before they choose the two, it's not that hard.

FOS- BBmolla-
Gotta do theory talk in an unorthodox game like this... nervous?

[PeaceBringer]

So basically:

We're a group of 14.
Four of us are in an "Alliance" (the mafia).

How I picture this playing out:

All votes for eviction will be private. I propose the next day everyone reveals who they voted for. Everyone must reveal. If there is a discrepancy we will then know Mafia has to do with the discrepancy. Everyone outing their votes will force mafia to WIFOM themselves as to whether to vote together or split their votes, etc. Although I don't know how useful this will be and/or what powers the Mafia may have up their sleeves?

I have a question for the mod. I will ask in private and may or may not reveal publicly depending on the answer.

I also have a proposal for HoH: If the HoH's evicted nominee flips Mafia, we will renominate that HoH as a reward. If the HoH's evicted nominee flips Town, we will select a new HoH. This will pressure the mafia to bus themselves. I think we should use this as a 'standard rule' for the beginning of the game (unless other information comes up).

...

Also, I really like Titus' proposal.

VOTE: Toasty

for now.

Actually, this is Big Brother HOH mafia... if I were to run such a game there would not be only one faction. There would be potential recruitment and other stuff as well. So I am not sold on only one faction.

okay read the 1st post now actually and suggests only one faction. I woulda done it different

[PeaceBringer]

night votes can still be a basis for scumhunting

Night votes are hidden. We'll have no idea who voted who, unless you suspect that everyone will be telling the truth when asked who they voted for.

lol- like that will happen. At least 4 may or may not tell the truth... but we will need to get into who voted whom and use that for scum hunting. Lies may eventually be sorted.

[PeaceBringer]

Please provide an example of where what I'm suggesting lacks accountability.

It has less than my idea.

With mine the "night" phase becomes essentially unnecessary. We know exactly what the final vote count will be, and we know exactly the two who will be up for lynch. The more we don't know what either of those are going to be the more options scum have to make a "convenient" vote.

The unknown and randomness is bane of the town. Its why scum are the INFORMED minority, they know more about things. The less we can keep hidden from the rest of us, especially in a situation where its really easy to put in the open, the better its going to be.

so when folks lie, how actually do you sort that out in your opitimization. Voting is private. I can see both scum and/or town not necessarily being truthful. Kinda have to get pseudo voting with top 2 canidates and go from there. But folks will be lying.

[PeaceBringer]

well I have time and ability to post and none around... :shrug:

we need to get 2 targets for HOH
we need to agree on an HOH
HOH makes their call
We get a vote report in AM
sort things out from there