Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

Are these players you are currently suspicious of/want to get more out of?
I noticed you focused on BRO and started towards questioning AJ, which seems like a progression down this list, but do you intend on working with everyone here before the day ends?

Yes.
Yes. Some people's input is more important than input from others.

Is there a reason to the priority of the list, and if so, what are those reasons?

Priority is my own and not for public eyes. The list is numbered by playerlist number.

[Aj The Epic]

Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?

Because school just started and i'm fucking busy, what exactly would I get out of delaying it?

This. Feels like AJ's talking out of his ass and trying to accuse you of stalling. However, wouldn't the more effective stalling method be to post a good case against a counterwagon?

A 'good case' would no longer be stalling. How can you possibly even accuse my of not knowing what I'm talking about when as to date, I'm one of only two people who have written up a case again Mala and Nick, and one of only three to produce a case on Mala for scum. I didn't even SAY he was stalling. I was suggesting he was having an incredible amount of difficulty putting together reasons that Mala is scum. He's fitting a case to his read which has been incredibly inconsistent on Mala to begin with. Ergo, HE DOESN'T FEEL MALA IS SCUM.

2- I've reiterated, even in the post you reference as bad logic, that they could both be scum. The point is, my alignment doesn't fucking CLEAR anyone. It gives a truthful alignment tell. I'd rather get information on 3 players instead of haphazardly risk a mislynch on two in a row. Blindly fumble around and lynch Mala regardless of evidence D3? Sounds real fuckin' town, AJ. Even as a contingency plan, that's not going to give us the info we could mine out of this situation.

Blindly fumbling? Come on, dude! I've spent tons of times reiterating WHY mala is scum. I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.

(And your alignment isn't really apart of this gambit in theory. Obviously, scum has ulterior motive, but the alignment of the gambiter shouldn't matter.) I was speaking more towards correlating playstyle to alignment having no real connection. Take, for example, if notscience and SoS were scum (confirmed town this game for better example). Does Notscience's scum play resemble gif's scum play? No, not at all. (In fact, I have a game where both of them were scum to prove this). So, can I make a correlation that if ns flips scum, this means that this playstyle (probs inconsistent, short spam posting) is scum this game and Gif/sos posting (case posting, still fairly often, more consistent) is NOT scum? This is the fundamental issue I have with your case: No, it does not and you'd lose the game assuming that. Equally, does this mean here that Mutley and ns are both scum in that game because their post styles are similar? No, because scum aren't determined by style.

3- If you think, in some bizarre world, that everyone sheeping MY OWN POINTS and B&B's against Nick is actually scum hunting, you need to get your head straight. Rushing the day and pushing out this lynch was something I was dead set on, but I stopped and realized how fucking backwards that is. Sure, Nick is a top scum candidate of mine. But Mala's been sending up flags and I've figured out a way to determine THREE PLAYERS' alignments with only a lynch on one of them. That's eons better than your proposed 'scumhunting'. Also, the amount of shit that I've kicked up by doing this has produced lots of amazing reactions and things to look at when we're finally done with Mala and/or Nick, so, yeah, I think you need to take a step back and realize that Varsoon is doing the most scum-hunting in this entire game.

Wait. Have I not made my own case for Nick and mala, as stated before? Many people have had their individual reasons for Mala/nick and they won't be shoving the blame elsewhere either way. Discovering Nacho's alignment doesn't require a gambit. Hell, no one's alignment requires a gambit and I still think it's shaky at best to work. (plus, I think Nacho has strong association to Rach that can pin him regardless of this).

4-You don't know what I'm doing. Part of this gambit is, in fact, to reveal it in such a way. See point 3, man. My gambit has already produced awesome content. And, again, I reiterate, you have no clue what I'm doing, so stop saying it won't work. Just because I don't play by the same little codes and pathways that most players do doesn't mean that what I'm capable of is less effective. Open your mind.

So you want to say I'm not good enough to figure out this idea? And yes, it's produced content: It's given Nick a way out and he immediately bit even with all the contradictions that holds to his own stance. But do I think it will get anything effective enough to change the town's course of action for one person's idea, no.

[Aj The Epic]

Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?

Because school just started and i'm fucking busy, what exactly would I get out of delaying it?

This. Feels like AJ's talking out of his ass and trying to accuse you of stalling. However, wouldn't the more effective stalling method be to post a good case against a counterwagon?

A 'good case' would no longer be stalling. How can you possibly even accuse my of not knowing what I'm talking about when as to date, I'm one of only two people who have written up a case again Mala and Nick, and one of only three to produce a case on Mala for scum. I didn't even SAY he was stalling. I was suggesting he was having an incredible amount of difficulty putting together reasons that Mala is scum. He's fitting a case to his read which has been incredibly inconsistent on Mala to begin with. Ergo, HE DOESN'T FEEL MALA IS SCUM.

2- I've reiterated, even in the post you reference as bad logic, that they could both be scum. The point is, my alignment doesn't fucking CLEAR anyone. It gives a truthful alignment tell. I'd rather get information on 3 players instead of haphazardly risk a mislynch on two in a row. Blindly fumble around and lynch Mala regardless of evidence D3? Sounds real fuckin' town, AJ. Even as a contingency plan, that's not going to give us the info we could mine out of this situation.

Blindly fumbling? Come on, dude! I've spent tons of times reiterating WHY mala is scum. I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.

(And your alignment isn't really apart of this gambit in theory. Obviously, scum has ulterior motive, but the alignment of the gambiter shouldn't matter.) I was speaking more towards correlating playstyle to alignment having no real connection. Take, for example, if notscience and SoS were scum (confirmed town this game for better example). Does Notscience's scum play resemble gif's scum play? No, not at all. (In fact, I have a game where both of them were scum to prove this). So, can I make a correlation that if ns flips scum, this means that this playstyle (probs inconsistent, short spam posting) is scum this game and Gif/sos posting (case posting, still fairly often, more consistent) is NOT scum? This is the fundamental issue I have with your case: No, it does not and you'd lose the game assuming that. Equally, does this mean here that Mutley and ns are both scum in that game because their post styles are similar? No, because scum aren't determined by style.

3- If you think, in some bizarre world, that everyone sheeping MY OWN POINTS and B&B's against Nick is actually scum hunting, you need to get your head straight. Rushing the day and pushing out this lynch was something I was dead set on, but I stopped and realized how fucking backwards that is. Sure, Nick is a top scum candidate of mine. But Mala's been sending up flags and I've figured out a way to determine THREE PLAYERS' alignments with only a lynch on one of them. That's eons better than your proposed 'scumhunting'. Also, the amount of shit that I've kicked up by doing this has produced lots of amazing reactions and things to look at when we're finally done with Mala and/or Nick, so, yeah, I think you need to take a step back and realize that Varsoon is doing the most scum-hunting in this entire game.

Wait. Have I not made my own case for Nick and mala, as stated before? Many people have had their individual reasons for Mala/nick and they won't be shoving the blame elsewhere either way. Discovering Nacho's alignment doesn't require a gambit. Hell, no one's alignment requires a gambit and I still think it's shaky at best to work. (plus, I think Nacho has strong association to Rach that can pin him regardless of this).

4-You don't know what I'm doing. Part of this gambit is, in fact, to reveal it in such a way. See point 3, man. My gambit has already produced awesome content. And, again, I reiterate, you have no clue what I'm doing, so stop saying it won't work. Just because I don't play by the same little codes and pathways that most players do doesn't mean that what I'm capable of is less effective. Open your mind.

So you want to say I'm not good enough to figure out this idea? And yes, it's produced content: It's given Nick a way out and he immediately bit even with all the contradictions that holds to his own stance. But do I think it will get anything effective enough to change the town's course of action for one person's idea, no.

[Faster Than Light]

Ara, ara, I see we can't agree~

-V

[Faster Than Light]

It's not that you aren't good enough, AJ.
You're just not Varsoon enough.

[Nachomamma8]

AJ, I hope that wasn't your only post for the day.

[Aj The Epic]

We'll use the spoiler for this one. Nacho, these are yours. Second quote is a response to FTL, however.

P-edit: Lol Nacho, it isn't.

Spoiler:

Didn't you already compromise once? What makes you think that things will swing back over to Mala with a nick lynch?

Kinda. I wanted Mala, but Mastin and Thez drew the idea that I agree with: There's a connection between them. They wanted Rach more, 2:1 I'm outnumbered. But if you noticed the amount of support Mala had and the fact that Thez's slot isn't in this game anymore, I had no support for a Mala wagon AGAIN today. So I asked BnB if they would help with Mala tomorrow IF I helped with Nick today. The fact that a Mala wagon is there is irrelevant because I really don't like this gambit as of so far and 4/5 isn't enough. I'm comfortable sitting on the case because it will come. I have done everything to garner support to get a wagon on her eventually, even if this isn't traditional methods for it.

AJ seems to be on the ground that Nick and Mala are a cross-bus.

No... I really think Mala is scum and am fine with lynching a scum read of mine I've had vocally since the beginning of d1. The two wagons are both good, but I've stated multiple times, i really don't see a correlation between nick and Mala like I saw between Rach and Mala and maybe even a hint of Nick/Rach.

If you could remind me what Mala's scum play looks like and what games you're pulling that from, that would be great.

JFY, Nacho...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=24201

It's mala's replication of a thoughtful townie. Yes, differences in scum play between games, but i already said I had looked at other meta by Mala to try and get her lynched in the above posted game.

Plenty of other people had reads that disagreed with yours; why did you pick up on TF and no one else?

I spoke in that specific post about all the things I disagreed with. You just re-read it, was any other player combining the same amount of badness together? It was also specifically because they were pushing mastin, a strong town read of mine.

Can you show me the scumgame where Mala AtEd so heavily and often?

This one.

But besides that, no.

I don't like that your initial vote on Rach sets up for another lynch.

You don't have to. I already explained this multiple times, but I saw connections between Mala and Rach and it would help me get Mala lynched if Rach flipped scum (which she did).

Calling drunkposting a scumtell is weird but probably a personality thing so noting but not considering as anything significant.

My initial reason for this was to point out that Andy drunk posting wasn't a town tell. My explanation was purely my reasoning. I never intended to call drunk posting a scum tell, just prove that it wasn't a town tell.

This vote is weird.

Agreed. It was me trying to get a lynch before I wasn't going to be available. I didn't have a lot of time, so I posted to help swing the weight to a wagon and get a secured lynch. Generally, I wouldn't do that but time constrains made it justifiable in my mind.

Yeah and I don't really like that.

Again, you don't have to. Mala's wagon just never picked up any traction and so I went about different ways to try and incriminate her. This also prevented me from just tunneling her and not paying attention to anyone else until she died. Getting Mala lynched is my priority, but I was not afforded the ability to be straightforward to garner support for her wagon.

[TiphaineDeath]

I can't stop this lynch, but I'm still against it.

[BROseidon]

Do you still believe the PGO claim?

Scum PGO, maybe. If those are a thing.

What's your opinion on his recent posts?

I like Varsoon's recent posts for his town-self. That he's trying to push through this gambit, and the way in which he's pushing it, reminds of of the "eff you guys I'm doing what I want" that he has when he's town. There're still the few MS posts I don't like, so the slot's sitting towards the bottom of my townreads.

Nick wagon was built sloooooooooooooooooooow. What does that mean for his alignment?

More likely to be scum. BnB has been pushing this argument, and I've stated agreement multiple times.

Look back on that TD wagon and tell me your opinion now!

Ugh, I didn't do this when I was building my theory. Venmar is the only name on it I don't like. I think this indicates I should rethink FTL, TF, and Mac a bit.

I'm confused how you compare my play with two towngames and get a townread from it. Aren't you supposed to do something like compare my townIC game with a scumIC game?

I was saying, "there's precedent for town-Nacho to play this way, even if this isn't the same way he plays in a lot of his town games." What I should have done more was to check if there's precedent for you also playing that way in scumgames, and what the difference is between the town and scum versions of that style >.>

You're still reading things from the nhammen slot? What did he do, exactly?

I had a fairly recent scumgame with him, and his posting here felt similar to his posting there. He posted a lot of walls with a lot of surface-level stuff that indicate that he's following the game, but he didn't try to move the game forward. His posting here was the same: he has a giant catchup-wall that's mostly IIoA/complaining about fluff, only asks a few easy questions, and... that's it. No insight, no indication that he's actually thinking about the game.

Have you looked at his other scum meta? Generally a deathtunneling scum meta doesn't work at all unless you also have a deathtunneling town meta.

I haven't. I probably should.

[Desperado]

@zMuffin

That's a really stupid idea. How about instead of that, you read and talk and actually try to find scum?

This is such a lazy comment. Not only is the delivery clunky, it's as if he hadn't read anything Muffin said except his last comment.

6. Faster Than Light (Varsoon + Metal Sonic) - Town, shouldn't take explanation.

Can you indulge me anyway?

What I'm getting at here, is that,
Is there a reason to the priority of the list, and if so, what are those reasons?

Why are you trying to get at this?

[Faster Than Light]

@Desp: It shows the priority of Nacho's outward thought process. Ergo, what he wants us to see, and how he wants us to see it. If town's all assholes and doesn't let me gambit, then I need some other ways to read Nacho. Being able to see his cognitive map helps map his approach to the game, which helps me a lot.

[mastin2]

however nicky only got super active when varsoon highlighted what he wanted to hear from him. what do you think about that.

Could be town, could be scum, difficult to say for sure.

[mastin2]

[9] TiphaineDeath (Venmar, zMuffinMan, nickthename, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, Ghostlin, Faster Than Light, Trust Fund, [nhammen/Malakittens])

For the record, people seem to forget that nhammen supported this wagon but critically, avoided joining it.

And since it's been brought up:
Venmar, BeautyAndTheBeast, Ghostlin, and FTL (in no particular order) are definitely not scum, with Trust Fund and zMuffinMan both similarly being eliminated.

That leaves {nick, Mac, nhammen/Malakittens} left. If there's scum on the wagon, it's in those names. (Which, again, is a good piece of evidence for lynching Malakittens.)

[BROseidon]

Ugh, I didn't do this when I was building my theory. Venmar is the only name on it I don't like. I think this indicates I should rethink FTL, TF, and Mac a bit.

I looked at the wrong vote count >.>

Looking at the one Mastin posted, Venmar, Nick, and Mala I don't like, which makes me much more comfortable.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

majiffy you had until i prodded my own lazy ass into gear.
that time is up.

To do what?

to get a lynch before i sorted this game out
but you couldn't ram it through quick enough so now we're taking the long way around

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

okay. first off I am not like 100% sure mac is town, when someone uses my read to ward off an attack it always makes me nervous. mac was scum I didn't read him correctly in poetic justice until fery outed her role and I realised majiffy was scum and that mac was likely his partner. we

do

however hydra together a good bit and it is 1 of the most seamless hydras I have ever been in and so I think I do have insight into how mac thinks. mac reached out to me

right away

and is consitently I maintain I think he would have been more hesitant to do so if he were scum but I am certainly not infallible by any stretch of the imagination

I am sometimes wrong

, in fact, frequently but then there are times when I am right too. for now I am reading/treating him as town.

nacho's post to bro about going to look when he has been scum as IC made me feel icky and I don't know what to do with that. I don't like his attack on aj either. but I like the suspicion on tf cos their fade is making me uneasy too.

bro keeps moving up up up the town tier

andy still makes me sus. I am only leaving him alone cos of nacho.

I am tired of talking about the gambit thing, I think it is based on flawed logic and won't yield good results and I am even slightly scum reading varsoon for pushing it cos he keeps providing excuses for nicky is a definite ewww. people are not assholes just cos they don't want to tie up the game with your antics. trust and confidence have to be earned and you most definitely don't have it and should probably be sus of the people who are automatically giving it to you, especially since I think mala is town telling.

@ nicky

what I know about you and what I know about mac are 2 different animals. we have only played skype mafia this is our first forum mafia game, while with mac we have played a few games and have a pretty active hydra together. the 2 don't compare so how you are even doing so is beyond me.

[Ghostlin]

Des (null/scum and falling): His entry and his entire work Day 2 is atrocious compared to Day 1. Seriously, dude, it's like you've not read the thread at all when you came back from your only 36 hour hiatus.

Dude,

what are you talking about?

What you're referring to as my "entry" into D2 was my 13th post of the day. Can you be more specific?

Your reentry after your 36 hour hiatus was exceedingly weak and poor, and not what I expected from someone who had been trying to keep up with the thread. It made me wince. In a game that's not having a lot that's making me fucking wince, that's pretty bad.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin: So, to simplify things... You've got townreads on Muffin, FTL, notscience, myself, BeautyAndTheBeast, sorta-Nacho, sorta-Mac, Sorta-Mutley, and sorta-Andrius.
You've got a null-read on AJ and scumreads on nick, Desperado, Trust Fund, TiphaineDeath, Venmar, and Malakittens. Is this correct?

If so, then I can help ya. Move Venmar and TD outside of your scum-list, for a start, and we can hash out the rest of the reads.

Essentially correct, yes. BRO fell off again. BRO's a null--I can't say with certainty he's scum, but I can't cite any kind of behavior or post that's makes me fucking secure about BRO, and he's neither pissed me off or reached out to me. This in and of itself bothers me, kind of like AJ.

Alright. I'm willing to work with you minus Ven and TD particularly since they're minor reads--they're more things that are bothering me than 'rawr, scum'. My problem is a lack of certainty, not necessarily a lack of fucking consistency, I want all the scum dead. So let's hash this out. First, let me ask what you find about TD and Ven that makes you secure they're Town...well, you can actually answer that last.

How do you feel about the Mala/Nick pushes, and which one do you feel I should be pushing more. I've been focused on Mala most of today and I'm nervous at the Nick L-1 only because of self-hammer/scum-hammer before he squeals all the information or we finish talking this day.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

ghostlin we have not interacted much what's up

mastin is voting mala so wat does that tell you

ns my love, where did you go

[Andrius]

I am here now
you have my complete undivided attention until N's game starts

boom baby lets do this

[Ghostlin]

You know, Desp's last post made me go, 'Really, someone in this Town still thinks FTL is scum?'

Then I realized I was scum reading Desp. But for my Town reads, I present to you:

The Reasons Why FTL is Town And a Horrible Lynch That's Literally Going To Happen Over My Dead Body.

1) 1141. Scum do not allow themselves that kind of emotional vulnerability. There's a truthfulness, a genuineness the supersedes when most people use the fucking word 'genuine.' Scum do not meaningfully have a soft cry with you, or show that level of frustration. Most scum games are measured. There was a counter point of a C and H game where Var was scum and apparently put on a role to successfully fool town. I read the post indicated. It's not the same level at all. Aggression and anger are easy things to fake, and so's a deathtunnel. That level of what's going on that post is not the balliwick of scum.

But you might not like the 'Ghostlin Sincerity Tell.' That's ok, I've only got at least 2 more fucking reasons why FTL isn't scum.

2) MS is being ludicrous and Var's arranged a gambit, and they've attention whored up the thread again between the two of them. Yeah, they could do this as scum, but the attention seems to be a Town tell. They're not bothering to be low-key about this at all. This seems baseline Town for both of them, keeping in mind I'm actually watching for some variance not having watched their scum play.

3) Var, MS, don't take this the wrong way, but there's no way you've done that much wagon analysis and are scum. I'm not saying scum can't fake reasoning, a lot of scum can, but not many go through the woods like they've done through the wagons, sorted which players have been consistent and inconsistent and formulated an entire theory on that based on stimuli from town. Var's out done himself; his gambit isn't playing roulette anymore, he's running a fucking mafia science project like a motherfucking mad professor.

4) The Nacho Crazy Tell. Nacho told us during Xenosaga that there's no fucking way that Var can be faking that level of crazy. We lynched him Day 4. Spoiler: he was Town. He's still town here, and so is Metal Sonic.

So, no, I don't want to hear theories that come from the paranoia center, or from scum wet dreams of an easy lynch about FTL. They're fucking TOWN.

[Venmar]

Andy knows where my time has been invested

Also school started today, so ummmmmmm

Anyways, Mac should still hang

[Andrius]

omg venmar
ARE YOU ONLINE NOW
IF I LOG IN WOULD YOU QUEUE WITH ME

[Andrius]

AM I GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY A GAME WITH
OR ARE YOU TOO HIGH ELO FOR ME ;_;

[Ghostlin]

ghostlin we have not interacted much what's up

mastin is voting mala so wat does that tell you

ns my love, where did you go

Mastin has good taste and we're trying to synch our reads and I trust him enough to do this. It really doesn't go deeper than that. The Nacho Crazy Tell is in effect partially here, and I've got a few secret things that tell me Mastin's town and 0% likely to be scum with Malakittens. Since he's also pushing Nick, he's not very likely to just be bussing Nick as well. Considering that it's very likely that one of [Nick, Mala] is scum, and Mastin is pushing all over the place on scum, and we're in Mod confirmed not-muitiball, it means Mastin's town.