Mini 1496: The Cash Cabd (Game Over)

[Rail Tracer]

also stubbs' question in 136 is bad given that hc already answered the question 3 posts earlier. . . .

[Rail Tracer]

well at least the first question, second is legit and what i wanna know too

[Daniel Bryan]

14 is pretty much just something that someone who doesnt like hydras would say, but I felt like all those "excuses" he isn't willing to accept is in anyway, feels like something to add more meat to the whole hydra hating thing, idk if you hate hydras then these things kinda don't need to be said anymore, its pretty obvious.
To answer your question, idk, it seems like you're willing to vote people on the virtue of them being a hydra, discounting dissonance or all those other things you wont tolerate as auto scum actions, thats the vibe i got.

In any case, its probably not alignment indicative that he hates hydras, but those questions seemed like they were there to give excuses to vote for hydras.

28 what? I thought you pretty much agreed with what he said earlier. You literally said that when the opinion was brought upon by someone else (SoS) so Im not convinced thats how you felt at first, its like you thought Poirot will give an opinion that would be favorable, and when it was questioned you back tracked immediately. You are my biggest suspect right now.

32 I dont get where she poopoo'd his strangeness, seems like a soft defense of Brian

37 thats an interesting claim. I take it you'll be more serious later on? If so, why claim PGO and not do anything else?

39 you liked his stance but you "never said you liked his questions" well why didnt you say that earlier? Your stance looked like you were in complete agreement with him. If you had a real problem with it, then you could have easily said those things on your first comment of his post

50 discrediting already? So like all early blips of suspicion are invalid?

57 a serious vote on someone who hadn't posted yet? Seems like a good way to show concern with "Serious vote" without actually taking a stance on anything. Scared?

83 great point, why dont ou just vote him seeing as he is your biggest suspect

84 pipebomb? Im sorry sir, I met CMPunk. I've trained with him for over 10 years. That. Was. Not. A. Pipebomb.

In all seriousness I that helped. It seemed more like a discredit than an actual attack. And youre talking about how not voting is like a scum tell, but youre not exactly voting for your suspect either.

86 kinda feels like "i dont want to look like we're having hydra dissonance because theres a player here who doesnt like hydras and has stated he wont accept dissonance as an excuse".

103 So if you dont vote Cynical and simply tell her to react or something, then she wont react. Its like "person A is scummy, but I'd rather not vote yet"

107 okay i think I like HP for town. Hs analysis on brian was spot on.

108 im not sure, i dont feel like theres much scum hunting going on here, or in any of rebel's posts for that matter, except for the point about Dessew.

116 its only been like 4 pages and youre already saying "im fine with being lynched"? Uhm, seems like an Appeal to Emotion right there. "Yah I dont care, just lynch me" during a time where no one is in any real danger of being lynched.

120 "You are both correct in thinking Im scummy" theres a level of self awareness I not liking here. Agree with your FuDuzn point but you saying youre scummy feels off to me. Like "I know it was scummy, hence im not scum"

125 i do think that yes, he could have just said that he doesnt like hydras, lists a few reasons why, then end it. I've said this too in this very ISO. But you did say nothing he said was alignment indicative, I would think you'd have other reasons to paint him as being scummy other than "his posts about hydras wasnt relevant". It makes it seem like he's doing something when he really isnt is something that would matter if he kept saying this later in the game but as it comes to early posting, its not really the case here.

126 im feeling Mario town, I like the analysis of the HC random feg vote about being under the radar, especially when HC did find something scummy about someone else.

131 when do you plan on doing something? What did you hope to achieve with a PGO claim?

133 yes but youre more likely to get a reaction from active people. People like Feg, may have just been inactive, they may have not read the thread as much. Putting a vote on someone who doesnt even participate or a person who hasnt read up, is a good way to put a vote without giving away info

135 thats my line.

In one post you were okay with being lynched, which felt like an Appeal to Emotion. In this one, youre like "blood will be over sheep" i feel like youre flailing.

143 I actually have no idea why you read that game instead of just commenting here. Or just ASK him to explain what happened. And you saying all this is like you questioning his own stance on his own game. This posts in off itself seems like a bad discredit attempt. Why use a bad game? Because he had a bad game with hydras. Duhh.

Okay so my early scum reads are Brian, FuDuzn and HC
Leaning scum on Dessew

Im getting town vibes from HP, Rebel, Mario and SoS
Rail is null leaning town.

VOTE: FuDuzn

Anyone else feeling Brian scum?

[artemiskitty]

@RT:

We are talking together. We should have our reads solidified after our skype chat.

[artemiskitty]

Fu: I think your early posts are "nothing" for town. There's an RVS vote, and you ask a question that was already answered. They gave me the impression that you post only to have enough amount of posts with "content", so you won't get accused of (active) lurking.

speaking of piggybacking on page 4... ^this might be an example

[artemiskitty]

Humble, or I could be town frustrated that I am being scum read for something I don't understand how it could possibly be scummy.

If you want lunch me than get it over with, I am used to micro games where losing one townie makes a big difference, losing me probably won't matter much here. And then you can all focus on actual scummy players.

^i keep reading fuzduzn's posts as towntowntown

[Brian Skies]

To answer your question, idk, it seems like you're willing to vote people on the virtue of them being a hydra, discounting dissonance or all those other things you wont tolerate as auto scum actions, thats the vibe i got.

In any case, its probably not alignment indicative that he hates hydras, but those questions seemed like they were there to give excuses to vote for hydras.

This is the original gut feeling I had. I'm a logical player, so I thought I may have read it wrong. HP's later reaction to Rail Tracer refusing to answer his questions brought back this feeling.

28 what? I thought you pretty much agreed with what he said earlier. You literally said that when the opinion was brought upon by someone else (SoS) so Im not convinced thats how you felt at first, its like you thought Poirot will give an opinion that would be favorable, and when it was questioned you back tracked immediately. You are my biggest suspect right now.

Reread post #16. I explicitly (and it should be pretty clear; if not, then that is my fault) stated that I agreed with the way he was going to hold hydras responsible for their actions in the same way he was going to hold regular slots responsible. Nowhere in there does it say I agreed with his stance against hydras or the questions he was asking them.

As for post #28, I didn't like HP's reaction to Rail Tracer refusing to answer his questions. Some of Rail Tracer's following comments (not SoS's mind you), made me go back towards my initial reaction towards HP's stance against hydras.

39 you liked his stance but you "never said you liked his questions" well why didnt you say that earlier? Your stance looked like you were in complete agreement with him. If you had a real problem with it, then you could have easily said those things on your first comment of his post

You're still misinterpreting me. I didn't think I needed to clarify myself, but after SoS's initial comments, I felt there was a pretty strong possibility someone was going to misinterpret or misrepresent me. You just proved that my suspicions were right.

Like I said before, I never agreed to HP's "stance" against hydras, only the way he was going to treat hydras the same way as any other slot.

143 I actually have no idea why you read that game instead of just commenting here. Or just ASK him to explain what happened. And you saying all this is like you questioning his own stance on his own game. This posts in off itself seems like a bad discredit attempt. Why use a bad game? Because he had a bad game with hydras. Duhh.

I read the game because I don't take arguments at face value. There is always evidence presented in a case, but it doesn't mean the evidence is relevant or accurate. And I'm not discrediting the possibility of him knowingly using bad evidence to support his claim (this is WIFOM and I didn't want to mention it, but it's still a suspicion I had). The important thing for me to read him is to discern how much of it is him just having bad experiences with hydras and how much (if any) of it is him intentionally painting them as suspicious or directing the attention towards them.

[artemiskitty]

that post is somewhat in line with my own thinking on cynical so far (particularly the ps part). additionally i'm having a hard time believing that cynical had so much trouble figuring out what a hydra is and was playing it up a lot.

i don't think so.
i remember when i first started playing here, i was having the exact confusion. plus, no one was answering him

[artemiskitty]

No! No! No!

I am not concerned with suspicion on me I am concerned with how the suspicion got there. All I have been doing is trying to get a solid reason to how questioning someone about they worded a post leads to 'oh so fu is obv scum', and the frustration has built because all I get is 'well fu has reacted strangely' and no explanae of my question.

To those leading my wagon, answer my damm question please. To those sheeping, I am getting ready to vote one of you.

If I am lynched, the blood will be all over one of the sheep.

^town

[Sound of Silence]

Anyone else feeling Brian scum?

I'm leaning kinda town on him.

[artemiskitty]

S.O.S - realllly not liking your stance on Fuz.
this post here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5291560
kinda seems like you're drilling it into the ground.
his question made sense to me. you did look like you were casting suspicion on brian. it was a fair question to ask, on fuz's part, if you were going to follow through with it.

speaking of brian - he seems town.

[artemiskitty]

VOTE: S.O.S

[Sound of Silence]

S.O.S - realllly not liking your stance on Fuz.
this post here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5291560
kinda seems like you're drilling it into the ground.
his question made sense to me. you did look like you were casting suspicion on brian. it was a fair question to ask, on fuz's part, if you were going to follow through with it.

speaking of brian - he seems town.

43 and 47 were my follow-up. That gave me an experience baseline to interpret his posts, and I found his later questions pretty incisive. Like I said in my reply just above yours I'm leaning town on Brian.

I've taken in your and Nacho's comments about FuDuzn and I'm thinking about it.

[Humble Poirot]

@FuDuzn:

116: One vote and a little pressure and you start appealing to emotion calling for people to "lynch you and get over with"? Claiming you're a victim (using the word townie) and talking about "actual scummy players"...

Why would a town player act so defeated so fast? This looks like misdirection. It's not done after a wagon, it's done immediatly and without actual intent of showing who you think is scum.

To those leading my wagon, answer my damm question please. To those sheeping, I am getting ready to vote one of you.

What wagon? The one in your head? how many players where voting you when you asked this? Specify who was sheeping. What makes you so important that you keep talking as if others should treat you as town because you say so and leave you alone?
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@HC:

I think you need to work on your own opinions instead of thanking everyone so much and repeating the same things the majority seems to think.
Mario makes a good point about you curiously calling out feng but not mario. When I looked at the "inactive players". I spotted mario immediatly (which is why I said this in my post "hope to hear from mario and feng soon." which you allegedly read)

The difference between you and Fegelein is that you already have contributed to the game much more than he has.

LIE. BIG FAT LIE. At the point you chose to omit Mario. Mario hadn't done anything.

Saying "there's scum on a wagon" is the most useless thing one can do. Statistically, in every grouping of 4 players there's likely to a scum player.

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@Dessew:

134: So... You're saying that every mistake I consider suspicious from HC actually strikes you as town? how so?
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@Saki

: I'd normally be annoyed about the fake claim but it might have stirred some reactions so I'll allow it but you need to step up your game and do it fast.

This bullshit one line nonsense posting you seem to hide behind is not helpful at all.

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@SOS & related to @Saki

:
SOS excusing saki for DOING NOTHING (retracting a fake claim) is absurd. We don't need to reward that kind of playstyle. "Playing more conservatively" means town? Why? Why can't he be scum who sees he's getting lynched to fast for joking around?
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@brian:

Your take on the game is different from my recollection. Maybe you're right but the gist of it is that it's confusing and a game changer. Which is why I'm trying to amass a set of tools to be able to read them. As for those concerned that I will only focus on hydras, not to worry, there's scummy players all around.

I used the game as reference because that's what I had in mind when I saw the hydra in the queue. I simply don't like the concept but this will be a good game to prove me otherwise.

I want to know if it is warranted or if he's just directing the attention towards them.

Wait, weren't you voting me? I thought you thought I was "pretending to be active" or something like that. Is this a continued inquiry or you forgot what you seemed to think, earlier?

HP's later reaction to Rail Tracer refusing to answer his questions brought back this feeling.

Can you develop on this, please? What reaction and why did they bring the feeling back?
156: Did you eat a lawyer or something? You seem to be circling around defining exactly why you think/thought I'm/was scum/scummy.

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DB:

14: see, 107 and my replies to Rail.
I'm puzzled. You attack brian saying my analysis was spot on and yet you too said (in 152, the very same post you attacked brian):

if you hate hydras then these things kinda don't need to be said anymore, its pretty obvious.

What gives?
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@artemiskitty:

You're a machine of calling people town without actually bothering to explain why. In fact, you don't even explain why you think people are scum either.
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@Rail Tracer:

You still haven't explained why I had to prod you for an explanation after you voted me.

If you mean brian (isaac? huh?) then the answer lies in the very same post you replied to.
You're forcing a self-fullfilling profesy.
You claimed I was making a big deal about hydras and we had a back and forth. You asked more questions which I replied to (amongst a sizeable amount of non-hydra stuff) and you know KEEP going on about the hydras and pretending that's all I'm talking about.

If you ASK me questions relating to hydras I will answers questions relating to hydras. Your confirmation bias is horrible, the more you talk about them the more you pretend I do too. In a way, you're doing what you accuse me of in a worse degree.

Also, you keep misrepresenting me about "Hating" (in fact, several players are) hydras when I made it clear I don't. I'm just terribly wary of the concept. Which no one can deny its confusing. And NO, you can't deny it.

You need to shake that crappy confirmation bias you seem to have an pay attention to what I write instead of working so hard to convince yourself.

re: FuDuzn: It was a mild read so far, but yeah. That's why I said he made me think of a "scum player who..."
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After the FuDuzn AtE I was willing to vote him but then I encountered HC's big fat lie and finally we have saki that warrants a wagon until she demonstrates she can play (if you don't think she can or are willing to excuse her meta I can show you a game where she was she made descriptive posts - check her history).

It doesn't happen often that I find 3 vote-worthy players that easily

Big fat lie trumps anti-town start and AtE though.

Vote HopefullyCynical

[Mario and the Diamonds]

Do people actually still believe that AtE is a scumtell, or do they insist on bringing it up simply for nostalgia's sake?

[Sound of Silence]

@SOS & related to @Saki:
SOS excusing saki for DOING NOTHING (retracting a fake claim) is absurd. We don't need to reward that kind of playstyle. "Playing more conservatively" means town? Why?

Why can't he be scum who sees he's getting lynched to fast for joking around?

Because he wasn't getting lynched fast if at all?

He could be scum changing his meta, but he looked like he was on his town meta earlier, and I kinda think it's his town meta he's trying to change.

Nacho, you have any thoughts about this?

[Saki]

im immune to meta

[Humble Poirot]

Do people actually still believe that AtE is a scumtell, or do they insist on bringing it up simply for nostalgia's sake?

There's no rulebook of scumtells for me. I try to fit motives with people and decide what their actions mean based on themselves and context.

AtE can certainly be used by scum to avoid their lynch. In any case, it's extremely anti-town and should be discouraged.

@Sos: I'm not saying this game. I'm saying that, maybe he has realized his play style doesn't yield results and is trying to keep "hiding behind crazy" but doing it in a more conservative fashion. I'm just speculating because I don't have time to really study him but he has, with this preview edit, already shown that he is going to defiantly keep playing like this.

Do Not excuse that kind of play style. It's not helpful in any case.

@saki: You're lucky HC lied. Otherwise, responses like that will guarantee I'll do my utmost effort to lynch you asap.

[Mario and the Diamonds]

Ew.

[Rail Tracer]

83 great point, why dont ou just vote him seeing as he is your biggest suspect

i unfortunately do not have multiple votes

But you did say nothing he said was alignment indicative

you don't seem to understand. it's the fact that i'm not reading anything he's said as alignment-indicative that's making me think scum. generally someone who's writing as many words as he is should be doing a little more in the way of scum hunting, and the fact it's mostly iioa is what bothers me. i've sene some semblance of what could be scum hunting in his recent posts but it feels mechanical and i'm not seeing the town you apparently see in him. unlike the emotion apparent in his talking about hydras, i don't sense any such emotion in his 'scum hunting'. *shrug*

Anyone else feeling Brian scum?

no

---

^i keep reading fuzduzn's posts as towntowntown

i haven't been scumreading fuduzn since about p5, but for the purposes of gauging reactions, i've been quiet about my read reversing on him. i am a sucker for ate that looks genuine. i still want his current reads. and i think he needs to tone down on the overreacting because i'm getting sick of it regardless of his alignment.

VOTE: S.O.S

i'm not in agreement with some of sos's reads, and i'm not currently town reading him, but i don't see the scum in his posts.

is this just because of the way he's attacking fuduzn? what do you think of some of the other players who are currently voting fuduzn (particularly dessew and hc)?

---

You still haven't explained why I had to prod you for an explanation after you voted me.

two things. first, i only give reasons early on when i feel they're necessary. i feel i get more telling reactions from someone when they don't know exactly why i'm voting them. second, why does it even matter?

You asked more questions which I replied to (amongst a sizeable amount of non-hydra stuff) and you know KEEP going on about the hydras and pretending that's all I'm talking about.

no. this is just wrong. i wanted the conversation to die immediately and made it pretty clear this is what i wanted. you kept/keep bringing it up. i only mention it later because it's part of what i dislike about your posts so far.

If you ASK me questions relating to hydras I will answers questions relating to hydras.

i haven't asked you

any

questions relating to hydras. quote me.

pay attention to what I write instead of working so hard to convince yourself.

i am paying attention to what you write. that is why i don't think you're town.

[Rail Tracer]

btw

@HP,

what do you think hc would have to gain by lying about something so easily verifiable? isn't the more likely scenario that hc is mistaken?

[Humble Poirot]

re HC:
The point is that:

- he could've admitted he had missed mario's lack of activity (specially when, upon being asked, he said " He hasn't posted anything worthwhile and seems content to fly under the radar")
- he could've said he was influenced by others talking about Fegelein (more presence in his mind due to more talk about him).

Any of those, I'd understood. Those are what you could call "mistakes" in a sense. What he did was lie.

He chose to, on the spot, justify himself making up, in the process, what he considered a suitable excuse.

As for it being easily verifiable, that assumes no one ever would slip up. It's easily verifiable if you pay a degree of attention, if you respond impulsively because you want to defend yourself and make up something in the process, you might just miss the fact that it you can be found in a lie.

two things. first, i only give reasons early on when i feel they're necessary. i feel i get more telling reactions from someone when they don't know exactly why i'm voting them. second, why does it even matter?

It matters because, whatever you may think. I'm hunting too and you're part of the people I need to read. I need to know if what you did and how you act is consistent with how you characterize yourself.

I need to know if you started what I consider confirmation bias after I "pestered" you with questions early on or if there's malice behind your instant dismissiveness of most I do (For example, calling my non-hydra posting mechanical and lacking emotion - why should I display emotion? - but also calling my hydra game emotion-full but fake to appear active, or something of the sort).

As for you continuing the hydra conversation, I can now see you're right in that you didn't ask me questions directly but:

you asked me to explain things

hopefully hp will explain why his hatred for hydras from 2 years ago has carried over into this game.

which prompted much of what you later described as :

but he's making a much bigger deal out of it than he should be considering a single bad experience with a single hydra.

So you ask me why I think this benefits him as scum? In the short run, it makes it seem like he's doing something when he really isn't. Compare the game-relevant content of his posts so far to the amount of times he's mentioned his feelings about his hatred for hydras. It appears he's written a lot, but only a very tiny fraction of what he's written is game-relevant.

Which is frankly bullshit (and part of the self-fulfilling prophecy of pretending I write nothing but hydrae stuff) and I can't stand by idle and not reply to your opinions (I get it, you didn't ask me) in 125.

So, what I'd like to clearly show is that:
- YES. Absolutely yes. You're fueling the talk about hydrea using it as a mean of attack and dismissing anything else I might say or do and later, when I refute your opinions or explain things you pretend I keep "making a bigger deal about hydras to appear active".

i am paying attention to what you write. that is why i don't think you're town.

Heh, it's funny that, only after me saying you're not paying attention, you dared ask me about anything I'd done that wasn't hydra related. I realize I might risk your confirmation bias going even further if I damage your ego with observations like this one but, who knows, I might be surprised.

[Dessew]

I read HC as leaning town. We played a game together and his behaviour is rather similar now. Okay, his chronology thing isn't convincing, but I can't see any reason why one would ever fuck it up (as I know myself I will on the next two pages, let's hope I'm wrong.) 2.: I hope nobody belived that my serious vote was serious. He hadn't done anything before I voted... But my vote had to stay because I wanted him to react to a vote on him.

Brian is null. He must be very busy with arguing over hydrae and defending his point about his first three posts.

HP&RT: I'm sure there's only a difference in playstyle between the two of you. I see the points of both of yours but I don't see where this debate could lead. HP just likes to write at least two paragraphs when it comes to hydrae, and RT is basing his scumread on HP on his paragraphs about hydrae. HP feels obligated to answer these accusations and the whole thing starts again from the beginning. So one one accuses the other that he's posting exclusively hydrae (yeah, you never said that, it's not the point here), and the other one has to explain something about hydrae because he was asked about it along with the accusation. Both of you are null, btw.

Daniel's #152 seems genuine, I definitely like it.

kitty: Could you, please, elaborate your reads? And I'm genuinely curious: if you discussed your reads etc., why didn't you read, edit, design one single post instead of several put in chronological order?

Frankly, I don't see how AtE is a towntell (did I get your posts right?)

[Rail Tracer]

As for it being easily verifiable, that assumes no one ever would slip up.

not really. i know people can slip up, but that isn't an example of someone being caught in a lie.

i personally don't even think it was a mistake or a lie, but i think your reason for thinking it's a lie is ridiculous. it's quite obvious what hc was actually saying if you read the first part of the post.

(For example, calling my non-hydra posting mechanical and lacking emotion - why should I display emotion? - but also calling my hydra game emotion-full but fake to appear active, or something of the sort).

the hydra stuff is iioa, the scum hunting you've been doing hasn't look genuine to me. i don't personally care whether you show emotion or not, i just found it strange that you seemed emotional about the hydra stuff (which was rather irrelevant) and this doesn't carry over into other aspects of your game.

part of the self-fulfilling prophecy of pretending I write nothing but hydrae stuff

not really. my issue with your early posts is that there was nothing

but

hydra noise. my issue with your more recent posts is i don't feel your scum hunting is genuine, and the amount of iioa (mostly hydra talk) in comparison to the scum hunting you've done has been underwhelming. quite frankly i don't care how much you talk about hydras as long as it's secondary to scum hunting.

also don't pretend i am the one forcing this. you could have dropped it page one like i wanted. but you didn't. so of course i'm going to comment on how you didn't drop it. *shrug*

only after me saying you're not paying attention, you dared ask me about anything I'd done that wasn't hydra related.

it's not my job to make you post relevant content. i've been reading your posts and it's first thing you've said that was worth questioning.

---

Frankly, I don't see how AtE is a towntell

it's not "ate" that's a town tell. it's the tone of his posts and how genuine this specific instance seems.

who

aren't

you "null" on besides HC (town) and fuduzn (scum)?

[Humble Poirot]

Yet again. Everything I do or say is "ridiculous", "irrelevant", "fake".

Instead of demeaning words, try to back up your statements with arguments. I know you're not going to convince me but you don't seem to be trying to convince anyone else either, just tarnishing me and asking "why" to whoever has a different read.

Explain why the scumhunting isn't genuine and offer examples of people with genuine scumhunting (and, if there are, people with fake scumhunting as well).

Dropping or ignoring a subject that's of inquiry would simply be bad play. You don't seem to have minded what dessew said about me feeling obligated to answer you (which is pretty much what I said earlier).

What are your reads on the players of this game?