Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[Ghostlin]

Bro is scum.
Nacho I'm unsure.
Ghost is leaning scum.

Here's a base level question for you. If you're convinced that BRO and I are scum with the total absence of votes upon us, WHY AREN'T YOU VOTING EITHER OF US?

[Ghostlin]

I think Venmar is town.

I'm agnostic about Venmar, I don't like him very much (in the context of this game) but I'm letting a certain someone get his way here.

Who do you think is scum, Nacho? And why, despite some insistence of wanting to interact with me Day 2, haven't you yet?

[Malakittens]

I'm thinking before I do anything. I need to sort Nacho out and I need to reread something that Mollie said.

I also want Mastin to answer my question.

I want others to chime in.

[Ghostlin]

Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.

[Trust Fund]

Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.

I have ~reasons~ for mac-town as of today, fwiw.

[BROseidon]

TF are you actually going to play the game or are you going to keep cruising?

[Trust Fund]

TF are you actually going to play the game or are you going to keep cruising?

Probably cruise until syr gets his head back into the game. I'll just be taking potshots and reads as I roll.

[Malakittens]

Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.

I have ~reasons~ for mac-town as of today, fwiw.

Are these the same "~reasons~" you had for Boro-town because I still don't see myself clearing Boro based on your role.

[zMuffinMan]

scummy as fuck

no.

SCUM
mastin
Venmar

when you start including scum in your scum reads, we'll talk. at least you've got one, maybe two scum in your leaning scum list.

but muffin is also trying really hard to get my attention

then lynch me you fuck

.

it's rather odd that you can't tell how obvtown i am, or you're pretending you can't tell. if you think i'm scum, try to start a wagon on me. i want to see what reasons you can come up with and who joins you.

---

This reeks of an FTL chainsaw.

no. no, it doesn't.

[Venmar]

im really busy

but i had nice and loooooooooooooooooooooooong look at mac and i have decided the dude is town

vote: broseidon

[Venmar]

fucking nick wagon sucked ass too... perhaps its time to sheep me instead

[zMuffinMan]

He posted a lot of IIoA and fence-sitting stuff without engaging with what was actually going on around him.

i don't see that in his early posts this game. the only thing i see in nhammen's early posting that could possibly be called iioa is his comment on #99, and that's a stretch. he was asking decent questions and while his analysis wasn't brilliant, it didn't really come across as scummy. regardless, even if you were right that he's posted similarly as scum before, do you know he doesn't post similarly as town?

Mala comes in, doesn't post anything of substance

what do you consider "substance" then? i suppose you could say that some of her early posts when she just replaced in lacked "substance", but i don't see how you can suggest she posted nothing of substance.

it's her trying to derail a wagon on scum for reasons that were not just bad, but horrible

other than the weird thing mala said at the end of D1 (which, imo, points to mala-town more than mala-scum because RM's lynch was practically inevitable at the point she said this), she spent most of D1 saying that the points against RM were something RM does as either alignment. whether this is true or false, i don't recall seeing any sort of strong push to get people off the RM wagon. yeah, there were mentions of her thinking the cases on RM were not alignment-indicative but it wasn't like an incessant push, and it wasn't even a strong push. it was the kind of disagreement i'd expect to see from someone who doesn't agree with a case, and it didn't seem to be anything more than that.

i felt it's a little strange that mala came into the game with a "bad gut feeling" about RM and never really pursued this (and this one of the only reasons i found myself thinking mala could be scum d2) but i don't see the supposed push against the RM wagon as scummy.

it got pressure off her in the short-term while not giving any content for the rest of us to work with should we decide to ultimately lynch her.

huh? no. her "coasting" did not get any pressure off her, and the fact that you're even suggesting this baffles me.

besides that, she

was

technically posting content, albeit not much. now, whether or not you think the content was good is another matter altogether. i personally didn't mind what little content she did happen to post. and i felt her frustration came across as more town than scum.

do you have a problem with the actual content she was posting? because hey, for someone that has a scum read on her, you strangely neglected to comment on anything she was actually saying D2. i don't recall you even acknowledging, say, 3306 and 3308. if you are (were) so strongly reading mala as scum,

why did you avoid interacting with her for most of D2?

Why did

you

coast on your nick vote for reasons that were plain horrible? (iirc it was... one of nick/bnb is scum because ~reasons~. and nick could be scum because it's hard to get him lynched.)

[Ghostlin]

Des:

@NS: You give content. Don't sell yourself short.


@B&B: I support a Nick Wagon to lynch.

-V

"Didn't support a Nick wagon?"

Try again.

[zMuffinMan]

I think Venmar is town.

when did this happen?

Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.

i am almost certain mac is town. mac replaces bnb in my list of people who should never be touched in this game unless certain things change. along with venmar, TD, FTL and you. mastin is just outside this list.

anyway

Vote: BRO

[Desperado]

I don't have to try again. Are you seriously trying to argue that FTL didn't do everything in its power to derail the nick lynch?

I could pull up quotes of Varsoon exclaiming his intention to do just that, but that would be pretty tedious.

[Ghostlin]

Or, let me get down to more to the point. With the above quote, and Var/MS's only voting Mala to try to confirm Nick gambit; saying that FTL was avoiding Nick is kind of like saying that that hydra was maintaining abstinence by screwing everyone on the block. FTL spent pages talking about Nick and Mala's alignments relative to each other.

Then you are trying to construct the narrative that they wanted to stay off the Nick wagon, who flipped Town, because...

they were scum protecting a buddy

,

being town means they were scum and they wanted to magically avoid the lynch while announcing they were a gambitting with is a Varshoon tell and a drama-whore tell and hence Town..

reasons. You are either suffering from extreme confirmation bias or are scum hoping someone will bite on this narrative.

It's not going to happen, cupcake. Not enough people believe Var and MS drew a scum role. And your vote on me is bullshit. I've not been 'chainsaw defending' anyone. I've been pretty damn clear I feel FTL is Town and that a vote on FTL is a vote for stupidity.

The post you made is insincere for the following reasons:
1) If you legitimately believe that FTL was distancing the Nick wagon after the amount of crap and conjecture done it...no, I don't buy it.
2) If you thought FTL was scum pending the Nick flip being scum...alright, maybe, but it sounds passive aggressive. It would be saying the equivalent of me bussing Mala all game long.
3) The best way to run with that post would be wait for Nick to flip Town, and then push FTL for trying to start a wagon on Nick. Or distancing from the Nick lynch because FTL knew they were Town. It could work fucking either way.

The sad thing? That was the most indictive post you made the latter half of Day 2, and I'm amused that at the prospect that I'd been chainsawing FTL.

[Ghostlin]

I don't have to try again. Are you seriously trying to argue that FTL didn't do everything in its power to derail the nick lynch?

I could pull up quotes of Varsoon exclaiming his intention to do just that, but that would be pretty tedious.

So what's the narrative you're trying to construct?
*FTL is scum that knew Nick was Town hence they distanced his wagon
*FTL is scum that knew Nick was Scum hence thy wanted to save his buddy

You know damn well as I do that FTL essentially said he wanted to lynch Mala for his gambit that'd confirm their alignments. So, why post that at all except you wanted to make something out of the 'derailing of the wagon'. And that's not alignment indicative of FTL, but of you.

[Ghostlin]

Also, and I don't really give a shit how this is taken, a vote for me is a vote for brain injury.

[Desperado]

saying that FTL was avoiding Nick is kind of like saying that that hydra was maintaining abstinence by screwing everyone on the block. FTL spent pages talking about Nick and Mala's alignments relative to each other.

I never said he was avoiding nick?....

Then you are trying to construct the narrative that they wanted to stay off the Nick wagon, who flipped Town, because

No I'm not. You are. Quote me saying anything remotely like this?

1) If you legitimately believe that FTL was distancing the Nick wagon after the amount of crap and conjecture done it...no, I don't buy it.

Good thing I don't believe that.

2) If you thought FTL was scum pending the Nick flip being scum...alright, maybe, but it sounds passive aggressive. It would be saying the equivalent of me bussing Mala all game long.

Nope.

3) The best way to run with that post would be wait for Nick to flip Town, and then push FTL for trying to start a wagon on Nick. Or distancing from the Nick lynch because FTL knew they were Town. It could work fucking either way.

Awesome.

You went through a lot of work for nothing, considering that entire post was based on a faulty assumption.

The original quote of mine was in response to Varsoon saying that Nick's ultimate inability to provide a mala case was null, even though he had been begging him for it for days. It was essential to his gambit. And yet Nick renegs on the deal and it's null? No. Town Varsoon who actually gave a shit about the gambit he was trying to pull should have been livid that nick left us hanging for days only to not deliver anyway.

[BROseidon]

do you have a problem with the actual content she was posting? because hey, for someone that has a scum read on her, you strangely neglected to comment on anything she was actually saying D2. i don't recall you even acknowledging, say, 3306 and 3308. if you are (were) so strongly reading mala as scum, why did you avoid interacting with her for most of D2? Why did you coast on your nick vote for reasons that were plain horrible? (iirc it was... one of nick/bnb is scum because ~reasons~. and nick could be scum because it's hard to get him lynched.)

You mean how through day two she posted shit like 3306 and 3308 that's "let me talk about how frustrated I am because people think I'm scum and aren't listening to me. Oh and I'll post reads with minor explanations?" What am I supposed to do with that, exactly?

And it wasn't ~reasons~, it was stuff that I clearly articulated in my first post coming into day 2. Turns out I had a wrong read on the gamestate. Hey, it happens, but I did post that I thought one of them was scum and posted the reasoning behind why I thought that. Multiple times, in fact, because mollie attacked me hard for it. Why do you keep insisting that I have not been posting reasons when, of everyone in the game, I have consistently stated what my logic has been behind everything at a deeper level than anyone else. Seriously, compare:

If I do nothing I'm lynched and if I do something I'm lynched.

well you wouldn't be lynched if you did something and it actually looked town.

i'm personally not convinced you're scum, but i wouldn't feel particularly bad if you're lynched because you're being antitown.

if you're town, why don't you help us find scum.

i'm not convinced ftl is scum, change my mind.

while you're at it, talk about who else you think is scum, and who you think is town.

You don't get it do you?

I tried to do something during Day 1. I was getting scum read for catching up and interacting with players and posting my thoughts and chasing after my highest scum read.

These same said people who were voting me for being scum D1 are still alive and voting for me D2.

Although some of the people on my wagon currently I feel are town. So there's a chance this may be a town driven wagon (AJ, Mastin)

Nick did a crazy flip flop on me from Day 1 and it looks survivalist at this point. Which in both ways can be a town tell or a scum tell, but I might be leaning on a scum tell at this point with one scum dead.

BRO is probably scum due to the NK.

Ghostlin is fuck tunneling so I'm not sure, but due to him misrepping me I'm leaning scum.

Mac is just a confused townie.

I'm "eh" on FTL at this point. Something in Day 2 that was posted is making me think town. No I won't point it out. so I'm having mixed feels right now.

to

HOLY FUCK I SAID I THINK ONE OF YOU IS SCUM. YOU MADE A GOOD CASE AGAINST HIM, BUT THE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE (BEING COUNTER TO THE RACH WAGON) MAKES ME EYE IT SUSPICIOUSLY. YOU WOULD KNOW HER ALIGNMENT IF YOU'RE HER PARTNER, WHICH IS, Y'KNOW, WHAT I'M SAYING IS PLAUSIBLE. YOU SEEM TO BE FAILING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I AM VIEWING THIS GAME: SCUM KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SCUM TRY TO CONSTRUCT A NARRATIVE THAT LEADS TO THEIR WIN. TOWN'S JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT THIS NARRATIVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE SCUM ARE. YOU AND NICK BOTH MAKE SENSE BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, DEPENDING ON WHICH OF TWO VERY LIKELY NARRATIVES WAS IN PLAY.

Notice how I articulate a theory about why I hold my opinions. Notice that this is what I've been doing consistently.

And Nacho is right we should stop talking about nhammen. What I object to about Mala is that her entire point about Rach was "she does this as either alignment" WAS NOT WHAT SHE DOES AS EITHER ALIGNMENT. SHE DOES ALWAYS HAVE A DECENT AMOUNT OF FLUFF, BUT SHE DOESN'T ALWAYS COMPLETELY LACK CONTENT. THERE'S A KEY DIFFERENCE THERE; RACH HAS SCUMHUNTING WHEN SHE'S TOWN. HERE THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF SCUMHUNTING.

Let's look at the above Mala post, btw. What we have is:

1) Whining about nobody listening to her.
2) "Oh my wagon might be town driven." Watch me sit on this fence and not actually try to analyze anything.
3) "Let me sit on the fence about Nick more"
4) "Let me make an unsubstantiated claim about BRO because the NK points to him being scum, despite the fact that the NK makes sense for a fuckton of other people as scum as well given that SoS was a huge threat to any scumteam."
5) "Let me both fencesit and have a weak read on Ghost"
6) "Let me just discredit what Mac is saying"
7) "Let me fencesit some more"

There's no conviction behind any of that. It's a lot of confused, jarbled, and hedged reads, which look a lot like scum trying not to really ruffle any more feathers.

And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.

[Ghostlin]

The original quote of mine was in response to Varsoon saying that Nick's ultimate inability to provide a mala case was null, even though he had been begging him for it for days. It was essential to his gambit. And yet Nick renegs on the deal and it's null? No. Town Varsoon who actually gave a shit about the gambit he was trying to pull should have been livid that nick left us hanging for days only to not deliver anyway.

Yeah, you're full of shit. You based you're entire predicate on a REACTION TELL? Varshoon didn't shit himself and scream, hence he's scum?

Am I the only one aware how fucking weak that sounds?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Second you're=your

[Desperado]

This was the progression of Varsoon's nick read:

Scum, scum, scum, scum, WAIT HE'S REALLY COOL LET'S TRY THIS GAMBIT INSTEAD, nope he's town now hahaha

Also check out these three posts:

Yeah.
What Nick has to say about Mala right now, on his L-1 deathbed, is priceless. Regardless of who we lynch today, it'll give a shitload of content to work with moving towards tomorrow.

-V

Oh, no, if he doesn't deliver his Mala case before the deadline, I will hammer him.


-V

It's null to me. :/

Bullshit.

[Desperado]

The original quote of mine was in response to Varsoon saying that Nick's ultimate inability to provide a mala case was null, even though he had been begging him for it for days. It was essential to his gambit. And yet Nick renegs on the deal and it's null? No. Town Varsoon who actually gave a shit about the gambit he was trying to pull should have been livid that nick left us hanging for days only to not deliver anyway.

Yeah, you're full of shit. You based you're entire predicate on a REACTION TELL? Varshoon didn't shit himself and scream, hence he's scum?

Am I the only one aware how fucking weak that sounds?

Considering what he had said earlier? Yes, I'm basing it on a reaction tell.

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not saying there wasn't "logic" behind your suspicion that one of nick/BnB could be scum. i'm saying the reason you thought that was shit. which makes your vote on nick shit. the thing is, you seemed to have so much more conviction that mala is scum, but you were perfectly fine with sitting on a nick vote because you thought one of bnb/nick could be scum. . . . . . . and if you were so convinced that mala is scum, why did you not take every opportunity to show why you thought this when mala was actually posting. why not talk about the posts from her that you thought were bad? why were you ignoring posts like 3306/3308 if they were so bad?

which look a lot like scum trying not to really ruffle any more feathers.

it looks more like town who's trying to figure out the game, imo.

And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.

yeah but the push for andrius's lynch was

mainly

from the same person trying to push the nick lynch. mala herself was saying she didn't like the reasons for the RM lynch but there was no strong counter-push from her. i suppose you could argue that she didn't need to strongly counter-push because others were doing it, but then your case would boil down to "mala was wrong, so i think she's scum"

btw, since you're calling the d1 nick wagon a counter-wagon, who do you think was scum on it? mastin, FTL or mutley? because the others are conftown.