Newbie 1433 - Game Over

[Skelda]

2Pac, that is mad. Do not do that the whole game, please. It is already annoying.

I don't understand the votes on me. What exactly have I done? I've checked my own IS and still don't see it.

[archaebob]

Scum are distinguished from town by exactly three attributes:

1) Objective
2) Information
3) Number

I misspoke when I said there were two.

The objective of town is to successfully identify the alignment of each player in the game, and secure the lynch of those who are scum. Since they begin the game with no knowledge of the roles, they find themselves in an environment extremely hostile to these ends. Thus, town are in a position where in order to win they have to generate as much information as possible about each player, before forcefully arguing for the lynches they can never be %100 confident in. In order to get these lynches through, they have to cooperate with players they have few reasons to trust, but are generally more likely to be town than otherwise. Also, the town outnumber the mafia by quite a bit, meaning the cost of an individual town person dying will in most cases be much less than the cost of an individual mafioso dying.

The objective of scum is to prevent the town from successfully identifying them, and redirect the lynch to people who are actually town. Since they begin the game fully cognizant of the roles (at least with respect to town-aligned versus non-town aligned), scum can only win by making arguments they know to be false. Thus, in order to win scum have to prevent as much information from being generated as possible, as they agree with and argue in favor of reasoning that in the back of their heads they know to be wrong. They also do not have much incentive to go above and beyond, because everything they post risks a misstep, and all they really have to do is avoid the lynch. At first, with almost zero information and a large number of townies to mislynch, this is not a terrifying prospect. However, the only way they can avoid the lynch for long is by successfully

simulating

the objectives, access to information, and confidence in numbers of the town.

A couple things we can note here that follow directly from these differences:

- Town will tend to want more information rather than less, more activity rather than less, and more transparency from the players who are not them rather than less. After all, they don't know the answer to the puzzle, and victory depends on figuring it out.
- Town will tend to be insecure in their reads, because in most cases they cannot ever actually know for certain that they have chosen correctly. This insecurity will

not

necessarily manifest itself in nervousness or indecisiveness, as many town players (experienced and inexperienced alike) present their reads confidently as a tactic or as part of their personality. However, in most cases a basic uncertainty will show up elsewhere - they'll keep combing the thread, they'll keep asking questions, they'll keep up the pressure on whoever they've voted for in the hope of information that will confirm their read of the game. They'll never get this confirmation, and the paranoia will never truly leave.
- Town will tend to be less concerned than mafia when suspicion is directed at them. This is because 1) they

know

that they are town, and 2) dying is not as catastrophic to their win condition as it is for a mafioso (PRs complicate this a little). As a result of this, town tends to be bolder, more determined, and less taken aback by minor things.

- Scum will tend to contradict itself. This is because they do not actually have opinions. Only goals. Since their beliefs are simulated, they require effort to maintain.
- Scum will tend to over-explain. In the back of their head they know their reasoning is fabricated. Fear of discovery leads them to paste things over with excess contingencies and justifications.
- Scum will tend to hide behind logic. Scum

love

logic because it works the same way for them as it does for town. It's easy to come up with an airtight rationale for doing just about anything. It's

not

easy to fake a fluid and impulsive gut read. That requires real skill, and scum avoid doing it when they can.
- Scum will tend to lurk. The less they post, the less they have to fabricate, the less they slip. Also, they don't actually care about solving the puzzle, so when they feel confident about things politically, they don't have the same incentive to show up after hours.
- Scum will tend to tunnel. It's easy. Also, if an ineffective player provides a plausible enough reason for being suspected, scum can minimize their risk by leaving their vote parked in one place and justifying it repeatedly instead of making more unstable plays.

Of course, none of these tells will work universally, and when they do make their appearance, it's not always in the way you would expect. For example, it's a common scum tactic to feign being totally confident by going to the opposite extreme (i.e. brushing off attacks sarcastically). It takes a smart town player to see through this smoke-screen and identify it as a another type of nervousness. Similar things apply to everything I've said above.

This is worth taking a step further. You can usefully think of everything I've written above as the "Tier 1" of mafia psychology. It's the obvious, essential core of mafia; the ultimate cause of all differences in behavior between town and scum. However, in order to get to "Tier 2" you have to take into account the fact that the scum is aware of Tier 1 and is actively trying to avoid making those tells. For example, you call this a Tier 2 tell: "scum knows that town is suspicious of tunneling, so they tend to go out of their way to post about

everyone

". Then Tier 3 is when the scum has taken steps to account for Tier 2, and you're off! You're now spiraling indefinitely up the WIFOM ladder, never to return.

The short answer: What good scum-hunters are looking for more than any one specific thing is insincerity. Exaggerations, distortions, manipulations. You're trying to find calculated, self-conscious, over-confident, or lazy play that is not easily explainable by the poster's apparent personality. You have to form a model of the person you are reading based on their personality, and then contrast that model with what they are doing. Then you have to trust your gut. It's really that simple.

[Mr_Ree]

Too much theory at once. This isn't school ya know...

It is all good stuff though. The trick is bringing theory into practice. Everyone has their own groove, you just have to find yours.

Sometimes, the easiest way is just to jump in.

As town, you should feel bad about your lynch. It means you were either not transparent enough or you were playing anti-town. Remember, the goal of the game is to find scum, not see who can be the biggest troll.

now, back to your regularly scheduled gaming.

[Ranawey]

Wow, that was a nice read, archaebon. Thanks. I've never seen a game where someone was so open and dedicated to show this tips.

I'm currently on my mobile, I'll read the other posts if I can get in a computer. I have a 24 hours trip by bus, I hope I can plug my laptop :p

[TheFuzzylogic99]

I am starting to read Satan as just an inexperience player rather than a scum. It kind of feels like he just doesn't quite have a grip on how to play the game and game theory. Its possible he's newbie scum but Im getting a newbie town vibe just from what has been said between him and Archie . What do you guys think. It could be that Im misreading things

I am not sure whats the deal on Skelda ..Im not getting a scummy read on him at all.

The only scummy read Im getting except for Satan is Mr.Ree. The fact he came in and claimed someone absolute 100% scum makes me a bit weary of him.When asked he refused to back his vote with any reasoning logical or otherwise. That and he placed a third vote on Satan. His action to do so seems a bit opportunistic to me . I honestly cant tell if Mr.Ree has a good read on Satan or if he scum trying to get an easy lynch. There is a possible third option which is the reason Mr.Ree is getting a good read on Satan is because both are scum buddies and Ree is bussing him trying to hedge his bets. Than again i might just be misreading the whole thing and neither one of them are scum. Thoughts???

There seems not to be to much info on most of the other player as the have not posted too much. Though 2pac seems to be lurking a bit and not adding to the game. I wouldn't mind his rhyming as much if he contributed to the game more.

[Mr_Ree]

Crap.... busted...

That was actually a reaction test. There is no solid foolproof tell for finding scum. I wanted HIM to think there was though, so I could gauge his reactions. Sometimes you have to bring people out of their comfort zone to see how they act under pressure. Once you've seen a few of these reaction tests, you will start to realize the intent behind them. Reaction tests are an excellentaddition to any scumhunting repertoire.

[2Pac]

@Mr_Ree
Found the scum buddy for you son.

@Fuzzy
Explain how I am "lurking" playah when your scum buddy Nominull has posted half as much and you don't even mention that fool! Better bus him son, get on my bus.

[Skelda]

Crap.... busted...

That was actually a reaction test. There is no solid foolproof tell for finding scum. I wanted HIM to think there was though, so I could gauge his reactions. Sometimes you have to bring people out of their comfort zone to see how they act under pressure. Once you've seen a few of these reaction tests, you will start to realize the intent behind them. Reaction tests are an excellentaddition to any scumhunting repertoire.

I buy that. I'm thinking a Ranawey-Satan scumteam right now, but Ranawey may just be Satan's buddy victim, I'm not sure.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

[Skelda]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

[Skelda]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

I agree, there is no way he can it all game. But, I'd prefer to lynch someone scummish to someone annoying.

[Mr_Ree]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

I agree, there is no way he can it all game. But, I'd prefer to lynch someone scummish to someone annoying.

This is town.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

I agree, there is no way he can it all game. But, I'd prefer to lynch someone scummish to someone annoying.

When do you expect him to stop?

[Skelda]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

I agree, there is no way he can it all game. But, I'd prefer to lynch someone scummish to someone annoying.

When do you expect him to stop?

When we ask him nicely? I don't know how reasonable he is, but I'm sure we can teach him that this isn't a roleplaying site.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

@2Pac - yes in my mind you were lurking ... you were posting without adding anything to conversastion. I was maining talking about your ryhming which was getting on a lot of players nerves. I never said or implied you were scum. Like other players I was wanting you to add more to the game.I think you are overacting over nothing.

I think 2Pac is townie. I have seen him do anything scummy .Yes he has done things that kind of annoying but nothing scummy.

@Ree- I do not understand your logic. If Satan really is new how would he know that there is no sure tell. .Btw while there is no sure method of scumreading a combinstion of them can give a pretty good read. Feels like you are basing your reads on assumed ideas. I dont get how your test are at all acurate. Honestly I feel like they are not good at all. Seems like you are making up some stuff and using that to attack players. Sorrry but in my eyes you are looking more and more scummy. Can you explain your method bc im honestly not getting your test or your qusi reads.

[Mr_Ree]

He wouldn't. That WAS the point.

The reaction test was to see how he reacted to having a decent wagon on him and being called 100% scum for committing a "sure fire scumtell"

I feel he didn't react the way I would have thought he would act if scum. Therefore, I am more inclined to believe he is town.

Truth is, there is no tell that is 100% all of the time. Once it has been used and called town, scum tend to adopt it and use it to gain towncred, thus, the game is ever evolving.

[Mr_Ree]

Yes. Satan is 100% pure scum. There is no denying it. That tell is flawless.

Let me see if I can find his scumbuddy before we end the day.

You ready to go 1-vs-1 against him? The IC shouldn't say stuff like this, the poor newbies will take you seriously.

@ SatanHellYeah -

I'm giving you exactly

one

chance to prove your innocence. I want a paragraph-length read of every player who has posted so far. I don't care if they've only posted once, or if you think you know next to nothing about them. I'm looking for the feeblest, most spontaneous, most honest gut reactions you can give me. Reach into your psyche and spit out the truth. Pick

something

about everyone and write about it. Minimum 3-4 sentences each. Also, label them as probably town or probably scum, based on your best guess so far.

If you're town, do NOT try to calculate your response based on what you think the town wants to hear. Just be completely honest, even if you think it might look bad. Trust me.

If you're scum, good look pretending that you've taken the above advice.

Also, if you argue with the prompt I've given you for any reason I can promise you that your ass is grass. Comply first, and ask questions after.

@ everyone else -

DO NOT

comment on or make reference to the request I just made of SatanHellYeah until AFTER he responds to it. We don't want to taint his answers. This is extremely important, for reasons I'll be more than happy to explain afterwards.

See these two posts following it Fuzzy, Nominull hints that it is a reaction test and Archaebob takes it a step further with his own reaction test.

Sometimes putting people off guard is a good way to get GENUINE reactions.

[Skelda]

I'm kind of wondering about archaebob to be honest. That whole wall of theory added nothing to this game that couldn't be found with a bit of research, and his "one chance to prove yourself" thing, even if it was supposed to be a reaction test, could have been him jumping on an IC with a read that was supposedly so certain. But of course, if that were the case Satan would be innocent, which I'm still not convinced of. My vote stays for now...

[Mr_Ree]

Now you're thinking!

I do wonder about SE's taking on the IC role and being overly helpful but frankly, Archaebob hasn'tactually done anything I can call him on. For now, I'm willing to view it as he saw and recognized my RT and decided to roll with it. Truthfully, if he was scum, he probably would have pushed ahead with a Satan lynch.

[2Pac]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick.

@Nomiscum
Good morrow Nomiscum how are you this fine enchanted day my good man! I continue to accuseth you of being scum because you readily admit you are only voting for me based on playstyle, oh dear!

Man shut that crap up...real talk playa, you are such squirming scum,
Better come at me with more than ad hominum attacks son.

But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it.

My boy T-Lake sang it best, "Cry me a river", and it's noted that all you have done so far this game is attack my playa style rather then explain my legit accusations SON! Doesn't scream town to me SON! Screams SCUM!

@Skelda
Can't teach me nothing, I was raised in the streets, you was raised on a farm.

@Fuzzyscum
Don't buddy me scum.

@Ree, Satan, Ranawey, Bob
Why haven't you sheeped me yet?

Got me worried, stressin, my vision's blurried
The question is will I live? No one in the world loves me
I'm headed for danger, don't trust strangers
Put one in the chamber whenever I'm feelin this anger
Don't wanna make excuses, cause this is how it is
What's the use unless we're shootin no one notices the youth
It's just me against the world baby

[TheFuzzylogic99]

@2Pac

If you want to accuse players of being scum strictly based on them calling you out on annoying behavior than go ahead. I am just saying using this method is not helping the town .Btw it is not nessarilly the amount but the quality. It is better to have five posts that is helpful than 10 posts that are filler.

I think that Archie was just trying to helpful though it is possible he doing it just to look townie. I dont see that being the case bc I reading him as pretty much a townie.

[Mr_Ree]

No response to my post Fuzzy?

[archaebob]

I suspected Skelda because his posts seemed plodding and calculated. He is no longer a priority because 1) meta-research has revealed a plodding, calculated writing style, and

2)

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much

until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

Lazy, unhelpful, and you know better. This is a newbie game. We aren't going to get the play styles we want every time. 2Pac is just like any another stubborn moron who wanders on this site, plays stupidly and infuriatingly for a game, and then disappears. There's thousands of these guys, and we can't just policy lynch all of them and expect to win. Your vote reads like a plausible way to keep your vote parked on someone while you avoid the difficult work of pretending to scumhunt.

unvote vote: Nominull

[TheFuzzylogic99]

@ Reese_ still getting use to reaction test. Have never seen them use before . I played occansionally but but itwas just for pure fun. Im trying to figure out if I realy believe you are doing a reaction test or just BSing saying you were to make yourself look good

Honestly I dont know what to make 2Pac-he has made very little real contribution as far as scum hunting. His going around asking people to sheep him as if he has good scum hunting credibility. His reads are purely OMGUS responsess. Everything about him says stuborn newbie but I cant ignore that his action are starting to seem scummy. He starting to act like a desperate scum trying to get a wagon.

@ Archie_ definently bad stratergy but the question is if just a bad townie or scum. You do make some good points but I am not quite sold . I think you need to make your case a bit stronger before you get me to vote for him.