Mini 1486: Fruit Basket Mafia (Game Over)

[Desperado]

So was your hop onto the Buffy wagon.

[Elyse]

well you clearly don't agree with me since i don't think bvd is scum.

I somewhat agree with you. I will be surprised if BvD flips scum. but facts remain. we are defined by our actions more than our words. at least imo.

Why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?

[don_johnson]

how so? aren't we nearing a deadline? I have no sway with anyone in this town as I am a replacement who hasn't even fully caught up. BvD's play pinged town for me, but the facts remain about how they acted around the scum wagon. I find empirical evidence much more effective than what people post. i.e. scummy players can post townie things and townie players can post scummy things, but when a player actually

does

something scummy, that should overrule what they are posting. if there was more time, we could feel it out a bit more, but if we need to agree on a lynch I am fine by following the actual evidence of actions here.

p-edit: elyse, if that doesn't answer your question just let me know. I don't

know

BvD's alignment. just because I would be surprised if they flip scum, does not make them innocent. if I can tonight or tomorrow I can go back and draw up why they might be scum. it is mainly(for me) based on the end of day actions around the scum wagon. otherwise they were a town read of mine. around deadline is not a time to be obstinate when my reads aren't super concrete anyway.

[Desperado]

Votecount:
Buffy VS Dracula - 1 (Elyse)
don_johnson - 1 (UberKang)
MnemonicDevice - 2 (Buffy VS Dracula, FormerFish)
Slandaar - 1 (mnemonicdevice)
Desperado - 2 (zMuffinMan, Kid A)
zMuffinMan - 1 (Desperado)
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

The day comes to a close on

September 17th

at

noon

.

Searching for a replacement for Uberkang, sadly.

So why did you pick the Buffy wagon? Literally every vote was on the table for you. Your vote implies that Buffy is your strongest scum read but your words say otherwise. And "somewhat agreeing" with muffin and then voting someone he explicitly called town is almost exactly how ASP got caught.

[don_johnson]

responding fully lwill take more time than I have right now so I will try and revisit this, but I really don't see the issue. mnem is an enigma to me atm, and his two voters are not super town reads. i'm not sure how a compromise vote made to satisfy a deadline would translate into my "strongest scumread". in fact, I clearly stated that BvD was not my strongest scum read. i will go over muffin's post later to explain it better as to what i agreed with. the word somewhat was placed there intentionally to explain that i don't fully agree with muffin. hence the dissonance between muffin's read and my vote. i don't think another wagon is gonna gain steam here and BvD's play at the end of the day seemed to be aimed at countering the scum wagon. so regardless of me town reading them, their actions show that they very well might be scum. i am not so egotistical as to think that my reads are infallible. i will address this more later. i actually have to go back and reread BvD at the end of the day, but i'd rather have my vote out there than risk a no lynch.

[Desperado]

When you voted Buffy he had 1 vote. Two wagons have 2 and several other players have 1. You could have chosen anyone to vote and compromise on, and you chose Buffy.

There is no reason for you to be compromising right now, and your choice of compromise doesn't make sense given the current game state.

[Desperado]

Also, your vote on Buffy is doing nothing to prevent a NL. In fact, putting a third player to L-5 makes a NL an even more likely prospect.

[StubbsKVM]

Prod Dodge.

[Elyse]

Yeah basically what Desperado is saying.

[Kid A]

@Mod:

awestfie and RagnarokCometh.

Me and my other head agree that Simple Plan is leaning town right about now.

hey i found a thing

[Kid A]

ok i think i see where desp is coming from with the uberkang/don theory, definitely going to look in to that more if buffy flips town

[Peabody]

Hello. I'm the new replacement. I got my role PM sent, but I don't see an introduction to my replacing in thread. I'm assuming I'm replacing Uber.

I'll do some reading and post.

[don_johnson]

When you voted Buffy he had 1 vote. Two wagons have 2 and several other players have 1. You could have chosen anyone to vote and compromise on, and you chose Buffy.

There is no reason for you to be compromising right now, and your choice of compromise doesn't make sense given the current game state.

I thought BvD had two votes on them. my bad. if you would rather I vote someone else, let me know who and why. why is there no reason for me to be compromising? ok. I will try it your way.

unvote

I will vote when I am fully caught up.

Also, your vote on Buffy is doing nothing to prevent a NL. In fact, putting a third player to L-5 makes a NL an even more likely prospect.

as opposed to me not voting? I disagree. but whatevz. i'll do it your way.

@Mod:

awestfie and RagnarokCometh.

Me and my other head agree that Simple Plan is leaning town right about now.

hey i found a thing

meh. that is a thing. of course, gee gee had 7 posts all game and that one came at the top of page 5.

BvD is a tough read, just scrolling through page 8 and BvD is talking about why Fish and ASP can't be scum together.

on page 9 VC is this: A Simple Plan - 6 (Formerfish, Elyse, Desperado, Slandaar, Kid A, Alexcellent)

I would imagine one of ASP's partners is already on this wagon.

I'm pretty confident that ASP is likely scum, especially given that he hasn't posted since #171 yet has been fairly active for the rest of the day. But still, no one hammer until he comes back!
Also I really don't like FormerFish's #198. It just comes across as blatant bandwagoning after seeing everyone else jumping on ASP's wagon. Could be scum wanting to bus their partner at the last minute maybe?

trying to implicate fish with ASP.

And yes-- Formerfish's behavior is weirding me out as well. Primarily because he went from buddying ASP to voting ASP. I think he's being much scummier than ASP, actually.

^^ this is one of those things. fish is scummier than ASP, but BvD's vote is on KidA. its like a soft way of detracting from the scumwagon, but still supporting it just enough.

Buffy keeps kind of sort of supporting an ASP lynch or a formerfish lynch while vote parking on me without pushing on me and not voting formerfish even though theyre apparently scummy

BOOOOOMMM!!! thanks for playin. this is another one of those things. you know, the things I was talking about before that made me ever so suspicious of BvD. its actions folks. and what were BvD's

actions

.

here is BvD's response:

We kind of sort of kind of poke in different directions than what seems to be the norm. I'm not too content with "yay, this one must be scum, let's call it a day", cause I'm just not that certain. Also, this reads as your vote would be better suited at us than ASP, logically.

its basically the "no, you!" defense. no substance here.

I'm not voting for ASP because that would be a hammer, much as Drac would like to pound his head in.

interesting. not because there are players scummier than ASP? this voices support for the wagon even though by my account, ASP is at least third down the scumlist for BvD.

You're implying that because I must be scum because I'm keeping on my vote on a player I'm certain is scum rather than changing it to one of two players I think could maybe be scum? That's just silly. I put my vote on the person who I think is most likely to be scum.

read this carefully. its not what KidA said. this reads like a runaround.

And this is ignoring the blatant misrep here. When did I "sort of support" an ASP or Fish lynch? I said that they couldn't be scum together and my suspicions of Fish have been... mild at best.

^^ nah. he's been voicing support all along. sure he hasn't come out and say "lynch that guy!" but read BvD's posts and tell me you don't feel support for those wagons.

Final retort-- you are voting for ASP, presumably because you think he's scum. Why are you saying that ASP is a potential scumbuddy of mine if you've already suggested he's scum?

^^ because you are acting like ASP's scumbuddy. so instead of letting it happen, BvD is trying to make it look like KidA is acting like ASP's scumbuddy. BvD knows the scumflip is coming. BvD is trying to connect others to ASP while trying to distance themselves while trying to make it look like they are not distancing themselves. that made my brain hurt. but whatevz.

it concerns me that lucky's catch up includes pdmed. at all.

[don_johnson]

sorry, pc is acting up. had to hit submit.

ASP and Fish were both trying to push their wagons on each other, which would be a lose-lose scenario if they were both scum. I'm going to say that this means one of them is scum and the other is town.

^^ this is one of those things that makes me think, "hm, BvD could be town." IF they were to follow through on the ASP wagon. but using this logic to avoid the ASP wagon, and/or push the fish wagon, is scummy. so its a tough call. considering BvD stated these two were not suspects and that fish was barely suspicious at all, it just seems odd that BvD is devoting so much time to explaining this read.

slaandar's fish vote is odd as well.

238 means mnem is probably town. scum wouldn't bus that hard.

Here's a different question-- looking at Formerfish's early game behavior (and specifically, his fear of being rung up to L-1 early in the game), does he strike you as the type who would be comfortable bringing his scumbuddy to L-1? I'm not getting that vibe.

^^ another post which gives me pause, but again, what is the action taken here? BvD's vote is still camped on KidA. no push on that wagon. no real support for ASP. some defense of Fish, but its based on ASP possibly being scum, which BvD states is not the case. in fact, this is reading like BvD thinks fish is more likely scum than ASP, which is what they stated earlier if i'm not mistaken.

lucky 245 seems like they are trying to appease slaandar. makes me think slaan is town.

mnem's reads in 254 make very little sense.

BvD's 259 could easily be read as BvD trying to goad KidA to remove their vote from ASP. sure they are daring them to put their vote on BvD, but one vote on BvD is better than L-1 on their scumbuddy. especially when steam is building on that Fish wagon.

stubbs reads town on the hammer. the lucky wagon did not read like it was inevitable.

Wow. Two vots on Buffy right away

Why your vote on him Elyse?

kind of obvious why. why do you care about BvD?

funny how my thoughts are mirroring some other players early in day 2.

now I just have to read up and find out why this BvD wagon dissolved.

if BvD is scum, UK is probably last scum.

BvD could be mafia traitor? or UK could?

Drac thought ASP was lynch-worthy.

^^ can this be proven? anywhere? cause I didn't really see that.

And saying that Fish was scummier than ASP hardly counts as steering the wagon.

sure it does.

I disagree that we tried to steer the lynch away, and I actually thought ASP was a good lynch, probably one of the best.

probably one of the best

probably one of the best

no no no no no.

What is your thoughts on Gee Gee and Fishy?

kind of an odd question considering gee gee has seven posts and fish is the guy who can't possibly be scum now according to your own logic.

read 320 for a laugh.

fuck it. i'm tunneled now. i'll continue catching up, but

vote: BvD

[don_johnson]

alright i'm at the top of page 14. eyes need a break. does someone want to summarize why the BvD wagon lost steam today?

[Peabody]

Mnemonic obviously thought Slandaar was scum, so why is he doing nothing to push the lynch? Especially when he wants the town to start scumhunting. Which by the way, that whole post was weird. Wouldn't you see an argument between Des and Slandaar a form of scumhunting if you already had it in your head that Slandaar is scum?

On that note, What caused you to change your TOWN read on Slandaar to a scum read?

Buffy's town.
Slandaar is town.
Muffin is town.

Considering Lucky/ASP was on L-2 when Mne voted for him, I don't see this as a convincing argument he is town. The vote for Lucky was a sheep although it wasn't acknowledged as a sheep.

unvote; vote MnenomicDevice

I'm getting a gut scum read from Des, mainly because his top scum list are against my town read list. I'll investigate this more when I have time tomorrow.

Also I'll be doing more iso'ing tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

i'm slowly parsing the latest posts right now, but dj's vote on bvd is the 4th vote, so desp's #530 is wrong.

[zMuffinMan]

Why are you so interested in it?

i'm interested in

your thoughts

on it because the three options i see are that he's scum faking it for some reason, or he's scum who slipped, or he's town who derped. in the first option, i'd assume you have some reason you think he's faking it (you claim WIFOM apparently). in the second and third options, it makes no sense to think i'm scum with him. this may be totally irrelevant now though because you're apparently changed your mind about it with the dj vote.

And when he flips scum muffin and buffy are confirmed town.

i can somewhat understand the bvd thing, but how does what dj said in any way relate to me?

[zMuffinMan]

scummy players can post townie things and townie players can post scummy things, but when a player actually does something scummy, that should overrule what they are posting.

i don't see the inherent scumminess in what bvd did. why is it scummy as opposed to town being wrong, and how do you tell the difference if you're just looking at actions, not words?

just because I would be surprised if they flip scum, does not make them innocent.

it does, however, make your vote bad.

---

hey i found a thing

what are your thoughts on it?

---

i disagree with most of the interpretations and conclusions in #537.

the thing is, i'm looking at it in the context of what was happening at the time and struggling to see how any of what bvd was saying/doing points to bvd scum.

at the point bvd was talking about formerfish vs ASP, ASP was pretty much a guaranteed lynch. i didn't see typical behaviour i'd expect from scum who sees their buddy at L-1. the talk of formerfish never really felt like an attempt to derail the ASP wagon, it felt like honest thoughts on formerfish. furthermore, if it

was

an attempt to derail the ASP wagon, then it makes no sense for bvd to be voting kid A. . .

and i didn't see the sort of distancing from ASP i'd expect when scum sees their buddy suspected by virtually the entire game. it was stubborn adherence to their previous reads, there was no flip-flopping appeasing the crowd sort of thing.

the conversation with kid A looked fairly typical of what i'd expect from town-bvd interacting with someone they think is scum (kid A at the time). especially where bvd points out that, given what kid A was saying, he'd be better off voting them.

^^ can this be proven? anywhere? cause I didn't really see that.

it was written in one of the things you quoted. here:

I'm not voting for ASP because that would be a hammer, much as Drac would like to pound his head in.

[zMuffinMan]

@peabody,

i agree that mnem's posts as of late have been a bit off (and would probably be willing to vote him at this point as a compromise), but the read progression on slandaar came from the ISO he did in 369. do you think mnem is the type of player who would attack slandaar like this as scum, when slandaar isn't really under any strong suspicion? this is kind of making me lean town on mnem when i would otherwise probably be leaning scum on him at this point.

his case is somewhat terrible, and the lack of pushing is strange, but i think the lack of pushing is more a playstyle thing than an alignment thing.

[Slandaar]

OR we could just lynch Buffy who is scum.

Speaking of whom, Buffy, you did not tell me who you are. Why is that?

[zMuffinMan]

if buffy is town, who would you think is scum?

[Slandaar]

Also, Muffin, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I am afraid no compromise votes are allowed in this town so please refrain from bringing MD up as a possible lynch candidate again.

The town thanks you for your cooperation.

[zMuffinMan]

I think the most protown thing anyone can do is pretend Slandaar isn't in this game. I'm going to do this from now on.

[Slandaar]

Deadline is tomorrow at noon. Which sounds cool, lets be honest, showdown at noon! but actually is quite confusing with its ambiguity.

Point is, people should be voting and Buffy should be claiming.