Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[Malakittens]

Mastin, Andy and AJ I am sure are solid town.
TF/Mac are high leaning town.

[Nachomamma8]

What's with the TF and AJ leans?

[Malakittens]

Aj is solid town.

I want to see more of TF and more from Mac. They are high town leaning town. So very close to the solid town list.

[Andrius]

Mala, Ghost is town.

[Mac]

am I missing something here?

Aj claims 1 shot BP townie and says he tried his hardest to get shot on night one by being townie as fuck, right? meaning he used up his BP expecting to get shot.

...so how the fuck didnt he die n2?

[Mac]

Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.

Seriously, though: The writing is on the wall that Mala is scum this game.

I didn't realize that I became so damn outspoken when I had caught scum. The FTL thing was not TvT, that's a terrible assumption. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to end up on my second choice (nick) because I have two townreads and a conftown there right now.

(I thought this would be slightly more obvious than it was in hindsight, though I didn't really want to go blatant hint cop, draw a real claim and get the town in a whole shitton of trouble. I used an old religious reference of death after a truthful telling to reference where I'd go [hand of god, stated that he was displeased with Belshazzar, killed the King for his sins being to stating displeasure and going to get a guilty read] My major attempt was to make a soft hint at a possible action going to mala here. Leads to a stronger hint:)

Apparently, however, you have enough support that unless I really wanted to ram this case down everyone's throat, I'm just wasting my time on you.

I will be going for something more solid

. But Mala, inwardly you have to know this isn't your town game.

Mastin, who do you suggest we lynch first, then? Mala, since she has the strongest associative tells?

(I also was thinking of some of the nacho-relations that didn't make me feel too good about the slot, but I was thinking I was jumping at shadows to have him tied to Rach. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it).

Out of your reads, I think Andrius is wrong. It's Rach's counterwagon and Rach IS the connection to which everyone else (other than Nick, I really haven't found a place for him yet) fits. I really think today's lynch is rach or mala, then the other the next day.

P-edit: Mala, you tie to Rach, not nacho. If Nacho flipped scum, Rach still has to flip to incriminate you. And vice versa.

Mastin, walk me through Nick's connections and THEN we can talk about taking him first. Rach is my candidate right now, because if you're also seeing Nacho, she sticks at the center of this web.


...............Andrius
..................|
Mala-Rach-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

And then Nick's all by himself. That's why I don't get why go to nick first. Sure the wagons help a bit, but I think that's a little more random than actual textual interaction.

This was me trying to see if Nick was

our traitor.

I couldn't find any real connection between him and the rest, and so I wanted to see if Mastin had an idea. Also, on the day 2 when he didn't go after mala with a case, I couldn't word that he might've been the mafia traitor without having to explain my own role in relation. It made sense to me, though, as the day went on. I had scum read him for a long time, he didn't seen to have any connections to mala yet flipped on her and the refused a case. So in my head, I had the traitor who felt he was owned and didn't want to drag a partner he may have known about down. Even without possibly knowing his partner, Mala was as good a guess as any for scum at that point and it was best for him not to tear at his own team.

Do I think Nick is scum? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. His posting hasn't been fantastic (As I will expand upon seeing as you so kindly asked) but it would be a little bit of a curve ball to my own thinking if he turned up scum. Throughout, as I've stated, his only consistent interactions with town reads are Bro and TD, both of which I have at varying degrees of town.

So after quoting through his iso, I found one post on top of what I saw that I really didn't like before (it's the last one in this, and I believe it's out of order so I can address it a bit more)

Spoiler:

@1381
Wow, you managed to make an entire reads list without saying or committing to anything. Scummy, although I don't know the meta, maybe this is par for the course.

I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though, but if she keeps sitting on the fence day 2 i'll most certainly want to lynch her then.

We should be lynching Mastin

This.

Alright. This is part of the two-post important special for Nick and the main foundation of anything I have for him. First, we see he DISLIKES Rach's read list (which, fyi, is worse than anything Mastin put up this game), but denies that Rach is a good d1 lynch, saying they should be lynching mastin (off of wagon support formed from that '5 scum' comment mastin had). But,

I don't understand the Andrius case and don't like this idea of lynching Rach today. That said, I'd prefer Rach to nothing, so I guess I'll vote her, unless something convinces me Andrius is scum, which is actually possible, since I perhaps if someone actually explains that case I'll understand it.

I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though

Why not?

Rach hasn't provided much content at all today, her reads sit on the fence so hard it's ver difficult to tell what she thinks of anyone. However, she has promised better reads and commentary day 2.

I agree that her behavior today has been scummy,

but hear me out.

Assume for the sake of argument that she doesn't provide any useful content during the rest of Day 1, which I think is a fairly passable assumption considering her current behavior.
During day 2, if she still fails to provide any useful content, we lynch her.
If she does provide useful content day 2, we should be able to use that content to get a more accurate read on her. If we decide she's town, we avoid a mislynch. If scum, we still lynch her, but now we have her better reads to use against her partners.

---

It's plainly obvious to me that a mac lynch isn't going to happen, so i'm in favor of a mastin lynch.

His reads look very artificial

, mimicking popular town ideas without providing any decent reasons, and his posts are largely useless and fluffy, either in the form of talking about how towny he is, talking about

how he has secret reads he won't tell us

, or talking about how he's lying about how confident he is. This comes accross to me as scum trying to look engaged while lacking any real scumhunting.

As to Andy, I need to Iso him again, if anyone could post a non-meta based case against him, that would be nice.

Bad all around. First, he suggests leaving a 'scummy player' around to get a better read on her. He suggests multiple times he sees her as scummy, but doesn't want her dead day 1. Now with her flip, I can almost tie Nick to Rach just for this. He's protecting a buddy. More than that, he's giving her a chance at a free pass in his mind, in favor of a mastin lynch which is made worse by his three expressed reasons.

1: Artificial reads. This really isn't true. Mastin had been giving and re-explaining reads all day. Plus, as mentioned by me (and Nick!) Rach's reads are awful. Terrible amounts of coaching would've gone on in the scum qt had Rach lived.
2: Lying about confidence. Come on, I explained this: You don't employ LaL for this.
3. Looking engaged, no scum hunting: Mastin was the first to voice that he thought Nacho/Rach could be a thing. He admitted that he was having trouble with this game at the begining and Nick has unfairly tried to pin this as an issue when, guess what, Rach had the same issue without ever trying to fix it. This post willingly admits that Nick has a connection to Rach.

Most importantly here, I was trying to find a way to bend Nick:Rach without saying "I think Nick is a traitor who possibly knows his partners and they don't know him" because that sounds stupid. He asserted Mala to be town with low interaction between them day 1. It turns out it was just an honest read, but I had that tagged as him supporting mala when her wagon had the least support. Rach was more obvious tying, as he took a weird "I can agree with lynching rach later" stance that I associated with "I can steer a lynch off today". And it, to me, made perfect sense why no one seemed to reciprocate anything to nick. (Oh, anything in green was me pointing out more to this post specifically)

It could, but it could also mean scum have leashed him in favor of keeping Mala alive. His case is delayed even with school (spoiler: 50% of this game is probably in school or college right about now) and I have a feeling it's going to come over really weak or mirroring one of the cases that has already been said. Though, you know as well as I do it isn't a hard task to find scummy posts in Mala's iso.

So FTL, now that Nick is 'playing against his wincon', what is your read on him? I figured as much for him not having anything for Malascum... but here's what's odd: He still holds that Mala is his strongest scum read. Even though he's too lazy/can't be bothered for a case like he promised for basically the last five days and stalled this day to hell and back. I think this is basically the nail confirming nick as scum.

Again, I was trying to suggest there was a connection without ever suggesting mala had reason to defend nick. To me, it made more sense if Nick WAS a traitor that he'd decide to stall out and hope for the best when he might've been infringing on his own team's plan. Everything he did was so non-committed with Mala, I felt as if he didn't no where to go that wouldn't hurt the team more. Theoretically, as traitor, Nick's hands would've been tied and he wouldn't have been able to make a move without seriously endangering his team, hence the 'leash' comment. Plus, Nick town reading mala and suddenly flipping when his wagon started seemed like more of an attempt to save mala than his own life.


Bro, it was a tad obvious Mutt was lying... Just the fact of a one shot vig in a large game with only one fraction would make this game take forever even with lynches and night kills consistent. Plus, I've never seen a one shot vig in a game this large. I suspect that he stayed alive more because scum didn't categorize him as a threat when he was away and inactive the majority of D2's latter half.

our traitor

our traitor

vote: AJ

[zMuffinMan]

nah, as much as i'm considering the possibility AJ is scum, the language choice there isn't a slip.

[zMuffinMan]

well, it might have been a slip, but i can see situations where it's not. e.g. "i think we have a traitor in the game... i think X is our traitor" <- it's odd language structure, but it's not necessarily a scum slip

[Nachomamma8]

Aj is solid town.

Why?

[waynegg]

Mala, Ghost is town.

Why?

[waynegg]

'If Skull is scum' is crazy weak for the theory we have here.

Thez, I know. I think Rach is the ideal lynch. All the major roots extend from her, and she hasn't proven anything useful. Mala will be incriminated, I get my lynch, and we then proceed to wreck the scum team.

AJ ~
Just two questions.

What's your definition of "to incriminate"?

Why were you bulletproof N2?

I personally prefer lexical definitions, and as such: To make one appear guilty of a specific crime.

Then, can you explain this?

[zMuffinMan]

Whenever I read wayne's posts, I find myself asking, "is he confused, or am I?"

[BROseidon]

Those semantics are null.

[borkjerfkin]

Venmar has requested replacement.

[Faster Than Light]

Mala, Ghost is town.

Why?

yeah I'm pretty sure ghost is town too

also welcome waynegg another member of the xenoblade cast

look who im hydra-ing with xD



@mala
if you call me scummy i will vote you Dx
but i still <3 you

[Faster Than Light]

@AJ

: I really like this post. It makes sense if I'm reading it correctly. However, I'm confused about a few things;

What the fuck does a traitor do? (Wiki says they can't do any QT chat/make kills, but is there something I'm missing?)
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor? The way you're writing about it makes it seem like they don't, but the wiki says sometimes the scum-team does.
What's your basis for saying there must be a traitor? Is it solely based in the fact you've never seen these PRs without a traitor to counterbalance them? How the fuck does a traitor even counterbalance them?
So... Nick's not a traitor, so what does that mean for us now?

The only reason I'd see for scum to keep Muttley alive is that his first shot hit town. It's clear that he wasn't a good judge of who to shoot, from an alignment standpoint. Getting two kills in one night? Seems pretty damn appealing, despite the risks.

Where I'm at right now, I'm really damn hesitant to believe you, AJ. How do I know you're not a 1-shot bulletproof Traitor, and all the crumbs you've had are false-crumbs so you could claim BP at this moment? This whole traitor thing out of nowhere feels out of left-field, because I'm not seeing much reason for you to figure that there's a traitor in the game unless you absolutely knew it--what's here doesn't seem like speculation, either. The easiest way I see to know it is if you are actually the traitor. Then again, I don't really know how the fuck that role works, or what a one-shot BP // Multi-shot Vig would entail that'd make you so sure there'd be a traitor in this game.

Does that make sense?

-V

and I'm totally seconding this by Varsoon, my own hydra head


AJ pls explain we r confused

[mastin2]

Yup. I live between Snohomish (the city! not the county!) and Monroe, in what I believe is called "The Foothills". My address is considered Snohomish, but I have much stronger associations with Monroe. (Mainly, because there's more in Monroe for me to be attached to. )

I only ask because there's this thing we call seattlemeet that happened every so often. The more I think about it, the more I think it should happen today.

Eh, I'd go if I could fit it into my schedule, but as a fair warning, I'm pretty much nothing like what you'd expect me to be. Sloppy, unkempt, long wavy hair, a goat beard, an overgrown mustache, sideburns that have grown too far, skinny-framed, etc. I seriously think people believe me to be a druggie because of my overall aesthetic. Oh, and then there's the voice. You probably read my posts the way my internal voice is, mid-ranged with a hint of optimism. My actual voice is a fairly-monotonous low voice, making me sound nothing like you'd think I would. And my whole personality's different, too. You'd probably never be able to tell that Brian D. Lewis and mastin2 are the same person if not for me telling you.

Mala, Ghost is town.

Why?

Because WE said so.

Mastin, why is Venmar town?

Because he is. That's as much as you're getting, and as much as you're ever getting.

TiphaineDeath and Mac are also both town, too.

Also, your scum-list is way too short. And there's no explanations for any of your reads. They're just flung out there.

Please do point out to why it's different.

My memory was correct: effort.

This game, you've given none. That game, you gave a ton.

Like, seriously. Difference between night and day. That game, you fought bitterly to the end. You were AtEing, yes. Begging, pleading, for townreads to show reason and logic. But you were doing more than just the AtE. You were putting in analysis. You gave reasons for you being town--some of them were meta, yes, but you didn't rely on just meta; you gave strong, in-thread evidence that was fairly convincing. Heck, if I weren't scum, it WOULD have convinced me that you were town, there. And in addition to that solid defense you put on, you put up an incredible offense. You pushed scumreads with some degree of certainty, and only in desperation changed one of said scumreads to include a former townread.

There's literally none of that in this game at all.
Seriously, Read her iso, guys. Read that game, and tell me she's shown any of it in here, other than the AtE.

[Aj The Epic]

This requires another spoiler. Inside, I have responses to FTL, Muffin, and kinda Mac...

Spoiler:

@AJ

: I really like this post. It makes sense if I'm reading it correctly. However, I'm confused about a few things;

What the fuck does a traitor do? (Wiki says they can't do any QT chat/make kills, but is there something I'm missing?)
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor? The way you're writing about it makes it seem like they don't, but the wiki says sometimes the scum-team does.
What's your basis for saying there must be a traitor? Is it solely based in the fact you've never seen these PRs without a traitor to counterbalance them? How the fuck does a traitor even counterbalance them?
So... Nick's not a traitor, so what does that mean for us now?

The only reason I'd see for scum to keep Muttley alive is that his first shot hit town. It's clear that he wasn't a good judge of who to shoot, from an alignment standpoint. Getting two kills in one night? Seems pretty damn appealing, despite the risks.

Where I'm at right now, I'm really damn hesitant to believe you, AJ. How do I know you're not a 1-shot bulletproof Traitor, and all the crumbs you've had are false-crumbs so you could claim BP at this moment? This whole traitor thing out of nowhere feels out of left-field, because I'm not seeing much reason for you to figure that there's a traitor in the game

unless you absolutely knew it

--what's here doesn't seem like speculation, either. The easiest way I see to know it is if you are actually the traitor. Then again, I don't really know how the fuck that role works, or what a one-shot BP // Multi-shot Vig would entail that'd make you so sure there'd be a traitor in this game.

Does that make sense?

-V

From a recent thread I remember in the Mafia discussion, I think they said there were three major changable parts for a traitor:
Traitor knows scum team (or part)

Y

/N
Traitor killed by scum team rejoins

Y

/N
Scum team knows to look for traitor Y/

N

Mafiascum generally follows by the bold. Yeah, they don’t make kills (which is seen by the fact that all kills are accounted for scum/vig so far) and they can’t communicate with their team
My role inherently wouldn't mean a traitor exists. However, given that there is one, it would suggest the second part of the above being yes. I am not running simply on theory here. Let's just say the bold portion is most likely true.
1-shot BP traitor is incredibly rare as is to the point I've never even heard of one. If I really was a bullet proof traitor (or, infinity more likely, Godfather), I guarantee my claim would've been something like "I am not bullet proof and can't help you there".

That second question goes both ways, actually--
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor?
and
Does the traitor know who the scum team is?

EBWOP: you make it seem like the scum team knows they do*, but the traitor and the scum team don't know who each other are, if that makes sense.


-V

I think the more likely conclusion is they guessed at it. It is completely possible they knew a traitor exists (no question now). My theory was the scum team had no idea who the traitor was. When I was looking at Nick, I first assumed that he didn’t know the scum team (correct assumption) but later assumed he knew a member or two, or even had found slips by himself to give him an idea on the team. The scum team might not have known of a traitor at all (which is why I kept quiet) and finding a traitor might lead them to make a fake claim to explain the lack of kill and try to gain town points. I could, of course, challenge this if I felt the people involved had any reason to be scummy. So the logic went.

Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.

no, not really. i don't remember you doing much with RM or the RM wagon, and i barely remember anything you were saying about mala D1, so while you may have had suspicions of mala D1, you certainly weren't taking an active role in pushing that.

i also have issues with these "crumbs"

the reasoning for your obscure 'cop crumbs' makes little sense. firstly, no cop claims because they see someone crumbing cop. secondly, if your crumbs were so obscure that a real cop wouldn't pick up on them, then they're essentially fucking useless because how would scum pick up on them, especially if a real cop crumbed in a more obvious way.............................................

i don't see how you came to the conclusion that nick was a traitor in the first place. him not making sense as scum with some of your other reads doesn't automatically suggest "oh, he's a traitor!" you could have been wrong about nick (hint: you were), you could have been wrong in your scum reads, etc etc

also, i can't think of any town reason you'd 'crumb' that you thought nick was a traitor. traitor is scum like any other scum, so why would town-AJ need to crumb this? it only benefits scum, and i can think of reasons you'd do this as scum (say, letting your partners know that you think nick is the traitor)... but i can't think of any reason you'd do it as town.

also, i can't think of a town reason for why you'd automatically assume a traitor knows who their scum partners are. they don't always know.

not to mention, you thinking nick was a traitor doesn't even make any sense with the way you were talking about nick yesterday.

for example, you were constantly talking about how you trusted the people on the nick wagon more than those on the mala wagon. if you genuinely thought nick was a traitor that scum weren't aware of and mala was actual scum, then surely you should have thought that the nick wagon was more likely to be scum-infested than the mala wagon.....................................

then there's also the following quote, which makes no sense if you genuinely believe nick is a traitor that scum aren't aware of:

Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town

First: Yes, cops might counterclaim. In mafia theory, a VIG claim is safe because the vig can kill the liar at night. Especially if there has been a second kill. Therefore, trust vig claims. A cop, on the other hand, will counterclaim because they lack a way to handle guilties without lynching. The other issue with claiming cop is NO ONE DOES IT. Therefore, I crumbed an investigation attempt in hope that they’d pick it up. I’ve learned scum are pretty good at picking up crumbs as I got blasted by hiraki in another game when I accidentally dropped a crumb day 1. He found it and shot me that night to take out the town seer. So I was simply replicating my own cop play by crumbing once or twice day 1. As I’ve learned, it is actually improper to crumb cop unless you’re in danger of getting lynched d1, so I wasn’t worried about someone crumbing it over me.

You’re beating a dead horse there, muffin. I KNOW I was wrong now, but it’s slightly too late to change that (all mislynches represent a logical error somewhere). To me, he was an obvious candidate for a traitor in that situation since I figured a core of Rach/mala/nacho/venmar day 1 and Nick was a scum read from the beginning of D1. Having nothing in the way of connections, I figured he’d be a good candidate for traitor. I can explain the connections I saw now (and I’ve tried), unfortunately I don’t have nearly the same conviction because I know they’re wrong and invalid.

I didn’t crumb that nick was a traitor. I crumbed a cop claim, and then proceeded to recently show you how believing Nick was a traitor affected my playing. I agree, crumbing nick as a traitor is stupid and nowhere did I do that. But as scum, the easier way for me would’ve been just wait until the QT was up and explain that. Nick wasn't getting lynched that day, and wouldn’t the correct move for me as scum to lynch off a potential traitor I had scum read and keep the core team together? Wouldn’t a nick lynch benefit me in every way more than a Rach lynch?

Explained that to FTL. They generally know at least one in MS.net games. There’s a mafia discussion on the topic that I read through after Posh mafia and IaI turning traitor.

But my own reads take precedence here. I had many people on the Nick wagon as town, as I’ve explained. How do we know scum just didn’t plan on bussing mala day 2? I had given enough reason that, for me, rach as scum gave reason to Mala scum. Inherently, I didn’t truly mind the majority of the mala wagon, I just really dislike the idea of gambits. They fail far too often for me to be an active part of them. It still was a numbers game yesterday, as well. You certainly weren’t keen on lynching mala. At one time, I had run through and figured at most, there could be 6 votes that day on mala.

That quote isn’t really relevant for the simple reason that I’m trying to argue logical issues with FTL in his gambit. The statement basically was “Theoretically, Nick and Nacho are opposite alignments”, not “Theoretically, Nick and nacho could be the same alignment and Nick know they were but Nacho not know this”. It just doesn’t make sense to argue a gambit with someone using information he doesn’t have access to. Remember, the whole point for me was to sit on this knowledge until finding a good time to use it and arguing FTL’s gambit wasn’t that time. Also, as I said, I wasn’t crumbing the fact I knew there was a traitor, so why would I crumb it in a logical instance that had very little to do with the game other than if FTL’s gambit would work.

am I missing something here?

Aj claims 1 shot BP townie and says he tried his hardest to get shot on night one by being townie as fuck, right? meaning he used up his BP expecting to get shot.

...so how the fuck didnt he die n2?

Passive role. Bullet proof is used when shot, not employed to guard against potential shots. If I had to actively start this role, do you know how hard it would be to make this role useful?

[Desperado]

Focus, Mastin, focus. We can't lynch this today, tempting as it is. We'll have to wait 'til D5.


For the record--this is not what I remember of a town-Mala being mislynched. Granted, I don't have much experience with a town-Malakittens being mislynched (Mind-reader Mafia is the only one to come to mind, and I don't really remember it all too well), but I distinctly recall that a town-Mala being mislynched puts in :effort: which I am entirely lacking in seeing from her. Yeah, she'll have AtE as well, but she gives a much greater fight than what I've been seeing from her.

What was scum Mala's plan here? She's been a helpless damsel since she replaced in, and her AtE and lack of effort have both only intensified since getting called out on it. She doesn't seem interested in doing anything to work against her death.

Because you are making a conditional statement (If Mala is scum, I am not) and then applying the statement in a way to make you appear to be town without satisfying the condition first. It's really underhanded.

And scum don't exist in a vacuum, but what constitutes scum-scum interaction and how associative tells actually work are just about the most subjective aspect of mafia in my opinion, and the argument that because you've been FOSing Mala since day one, you couldn't possibly be scum together, does not align with my perspective. Do you honestly believe that a Mala scum flip would clear you as town?

Re the first paragraph:

Also, muffin and mastin, you are scumreading both me and Mala.

You would have to conclude that I've been hard-bussing the slot all game.

Is this correct, and would you still push for me tomorrow if Mala flips scum?

This is not a defense. This is me trying to gauge where other people stand (also, this wasn't addressed to you and you felt compelled to respond to it. Why?). That you paint this as me defending myself when, at best, it's an incredibly indirect defense, compared to the insane amount of actual defense I have done over the past two days is extremely scummy.

Second, this entire game is subjective. I'm not saying, "OMG I SCUMREAD MALA EARLY THEREFORE CAN'T BE SCUM TOGETHER." What I'm

asking

is "does this look like S/S interaction to you."

A Mala scumflip only clears me as town if enough people think that it wasn't a S/S interaction. I'm not going to argue more than that.

The tone of the bolded sentence is clearly meant to imply a defense, i.e. "how could you possibly be so stupid as to conclude that I've been hardbussing the slot all game?" Sugar coating it with the sentence that follows doesn't change the fact that you are steering muffin and mastin towards one conclusion based on the alignment of an unflipped player.

Mod: if an X-shot role is roleblocked, is their shot refunded?

Wayne, you should check to make sure your shot was used up. I'm running through the possibilities, between roleblocker (a fairly likely scum role in the game), *OTHERS REDACTED*, but needless to say, aside from the roleblocker possibility, none of these bode well for Aj at all.
(Oh, and even in the case of a roleblocker, still not great. )

Mastin, why would wayne being blocked bode poorly for AJ?

I'm wondering the same thing.

Spoiler: Varsoon scumming it up

Mastin, why are you claiming Wayne got roleblocked?

I'd like to see this answered and explored a bit, as well.

And FTL, how many is Mastin up to now?

x 8 turned sideways.


Hey, don't know if I welcomed you to the game yet. Things are slow right now. I feel like, given your interaction, the day is going to speed up a bit.

Still don't like Mala, but that's in my back pocket now. Gotta get things done today.

I'm a bit unsettled by your "No, I had two shots" reveal. I don't really like working with exclusive information and forming decisions based on that. Can you prove that you had a second shot your slot used on AJ? How do I know you're not just scum trying to cause confusion? It certainly seems like the perfect kind of gambit, to claim you shot someone and then go "Welp! Something's amiss!" and direct blame and stuff. That said, I've never seen a scum dayvig, so even though I like to entertain the possibility, I've been roughly reassured in the past that it just isn't a scum role.

-V

Basically, Waynegg, what I want to know is your purpose behind revealing you were a 2-shot and why you decided to also reveal that the second shot didn't go through.

-V

Then stop trying to mud sling a slot.

I agree, speculation on PRs is trouble. That's why I hate dealing with claimed PRs, it's a huge can of worms.

Then why bring it up at all if you think it's trouble?

Then stop trying to mud sling a slot.

I agree, speculation on PRs is trouble. That's why I hate dealing with claimed PRs, it's a huge can of worms.

Then why bring it up at all if you think it's trouble?

I'm not the one who brought it up. Can's been opened. I'm just doing my part in putting a lid on it.

-V

Town-Varsoon has no reason to be pursuing any of this.

AJ ~
Just two questions.

What's your definition of "to incriminate"?

Why were you bulletproof N2?

I personally prefer lexical definitions, and as such: To make one appear guilty of a specific crime.

Considering that there's about no chance of you being scum, I mine as well just claim. I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit. I wanted to remove any ambiguity because I had/have strong reasons to believe a traitor exists in this game and my role's job was to add a counterbalance to it. Not only do I have a strong reason to suspect much, but this is generally the key reason a bullet proof townie is added in (I can point a few games I was in recently with the same role).

Unfortunately, I received no notification to recognize anyone having removed this from me. I can, however, show a trail of crumbs I left to try to get this removed and how it has affected my logical progression through the game.

Why does BP = Traitor?

Well, there's a minor logical jump involved. If wayne's slot was blocked, then they were blocked for a reason. If they were blocked for a reason, then it's typically because they had a reason to be blocked. One reason to block a claimed 1-shot vig who's taken a shot is that you fear scum will be hit and the vig was lying about being 1-shot.

Except I ISO'd Mutt to see if he left any indication of who he'd have targeted next. I found nothing. He spent all of day two with "I SHOT MY WHOLE LOAD ON SAKI LAWL."

So why would scum be afraid of him hitting again if 1) He'd claimed 1-shot and 2) There was no indication of who he'd target next if he were lying, and would thus be more likely to hit town than scum.

My thoughts exactly. Hey Mastin, why did you ignore this in 4116?

TOWN:
notscience
waynegg
Faster Than Light
Ghostlin
Mac
mastin2
Muffin

Lean town:
Andrius
Trust Fund
AJ
Venmar?
BROseidon

LEFTOVERS:
Malakittens
TiphaineDeath

These are my reads. Towngroup is obviously the strongest.
Mastin, why is Venmar town?

What am I, chopped liver? And how was what TF said wildly different?

[Malakittens]

I'm giving effort, but this time it's not walls. Styles change, people change.

[Malakittens]

Why is AJ town?

I'm going with Thezmon's read on him which I think them playing offsite he would know how to read him better than the rest of it. Along with the fact AJ's been chasing down me along with others. I do think he's solidly town.

Although I'm a bit clouded because I haven't played with scum-AJ, but it is what it is.

Spoiler:

I have seen town-AJ once and I'm not really seeing it, but I will need to take a closer look. So they were impatient and started w/o me on League. (fuck you andy </3)

This post should be pretty justifiable. Instead of jumping on the shit wagon that was TD, he decides to pursue his own reads. But if you have me as town (which I am going to assume you do), then you should let me deal with Aj. Right now, he's looking pretty town.

Of course, sometimes that read changes after flips have happened, but for the most part I have been accurate on D1 reads of him.

You mean this?

Current scum candidates: FTL, TD (for reasons described by 81 and 91)

Where are these reasons? I didn't see them. You also did not quote any posts numbered 81 or 91 in this post. Please elaborate immediately.

This is literally the only feasible post of your reasoning for nhammen being scum. So uhh... Reasons or I call bullshit.

Let me ask you something; did he elaborate? No. Mmkay then.

Looked to me like he was more concerned with the fact that there were a hell of a lot of posts that he had to read, such as the beginning of mollie's quoted (about Breaking Bad).

But humor me, then. How strong was your read on nhammen, and how much has Mala's entry skewed that?

Thez have you played with AJ scum before?

Have I played with AJ-scum before, hah. I taught him how to play scum. Or, well, I was one of his mentors when he first played scum.

Let me reiterate to you - we're from the same offsite. He's played about 2 years, and I've played about 3, approaching 4. Almost every game he's played on that site has been with me, or with me modding it. Granted, he's evolved over the years (as have I, and just about everyone else), but I still read him fairly well.

[BROseidon]

The tone of the bolded sentence is clearly meant to imply a defense

Feel free to read into stuff that isn't there more.

[BROseidon]

I'm giving effort, but this time it's not walls. Styles change, people change.

Apparently we have very different definitions of effort.

[waynegg]

Whenever I read wayne's posts, I find myself asking, "is he confused, or am I?"

Im not confused. Been reading and taking notes since the game started

Mala, Ghost is town.

Why?

Because WE said so.

I'm specifically asking Andy why he thinks that because I'm not on the same page. Nor do I believe you're town, so I'll wait for Andy, but thanks.

Mastin, why is Venmar town?

Because he is. That's as much as you're getting, and as much as you're ever getting.

Yeah. Not a good answer

This requires another spoiler. Inside, I have responses to FTL, Muffin, and kinda Mac...

Where's the love AJ?

[Nachomamma8]

And how was what TF said wildly different?

Hmmm?

I'm going with Thezmon's read on him which I think them playing offsite he would know how to read him better than the rest of it.

OK.