A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Thor665]

It just kind of made my head explode. Like, omg, vote Thor because he has claimed that a miller works exactly the way a miller works! wut

Yeah...it just felt strident, like maybe you knew I was town and were looking for the bonus points for the easy defense.
You don't think it looked that way?

In related news, I have no idea who Casso is. Someone refresh my memory?

Casso is the King of The Seals and currently resides in Braavos where he serves as an inspiration and friend to everyone's favorite character Arya/Arry/Weasel/et al.
He's sort of a big deal.

Also, I'm not scumreading Thor but am I the only one who doesn't buy the "lol Casso" claim

Seriously?
It's times like this I wonder if I should go back to using [sarcasm][/sarcasm].

thor, here is your cake:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4798828

That's an example of a Cop fakeclaiming Miller and not being lynched Day one...seems in line with what I've said wherein Miller claims are never lynched Day 1, and indeed are highly unlikely lynches ever.

2) Did Thor misuse site meta, and come in way to high and mighty that he's conftown. Yes

I think you are confusing 'site meta' with 'how I think reality should be' and also, seriously, are you saying I'm scum because I'm faking what I believe site meta to be?
Seriously?
What am I, like a...013?

-He himself agrees the logic to write a miller claim off as conftown doesn't add up. I ask him for a meta reference.. he gives me the ropeadope.. and I'm the jackSmurf .

You'll note I also asked you to provide meta, and you gave me an equivalent ropeadope - so that's a pretty weak backhand coming from you.
If we want to do this seriously one of us would need to dig up all the Miller claims for the past year and examine them.
I'm personally never going to do that - but I bet I'm dead right about what went down with the majority of them.
That's what makes it site meta.

How many times must I say... I find him scummy not for his claim, but rather the way he auto-confirmed himself town.

My bad, was I supposed to suggest my role confirmed me as scum or something?
I didn't realize by saying that my slightly oddball role strongly indicated I was town when I invited any non-regular cop to check and confirm me as town.
Blow me down, how scummy of me.

Are we really going to play the join date elitism game in this thread? I'd be willing to bet join date is not statistically significant for anything except possibly being mislynched D1. Most 2013s are probably better scumhunters than me. So kindly take that argument and [redacted for decency].

Oh posh, you're a 006, you're *way* better than Benmage.
Says it on the label.

Yes, it is. That's how I figured out he was lying. He carries the same opinion you have over miller claims, and absolutely was not trying to pull a legitimate miller claim in thread.

I was specifically trying to pull a Miller claim in this thread and indicated again after the fact that it was a legit claim.
I will now do so for a third time - react accordingly.

[PeaceBringer]

Okay, I know it may be that I come from a different culture, but honestly when I read that last post it just comes off as noise. There is nothing in that wall that makes me go, hmm, need to consider that... just blah blah blah... so that sets of alarms-

pedit: not thor's post, the one before it.

[Thor665]

Yes, it is. That's how I figured out he was lying. He carries the same opinion you have over miller claims, and absolutely was not trying to pull a legitimate miller claim in thread.

I was specifically trying to pull a Miller claim in this thread and indicated again after the fact that it was a legit claim.
I will now do so for a third time - react accordingly.

[Cephrir]

Okay, I know it may be that I come from a different culture, but honestly when I read that last post it just comes off as noise. There is nothing in that wall that makes me go, hmm, need to consider that... just blah blah blah... so that sets of alarms-

pedit: not thor's post, the one before it.

It seems fine to me and not particularly worse than any of the actual noise going on in this thread... if you can't explain this better than I don't know what you're talking about

You'll note I also asked you to provide meta, and you gave me an equivalent ropeadope - so that's a pretty weak backhand coming from you.
If we want to do this seriously one of us would need to dig up all the Miller claims for the past year and examine them.
I'm personally never going to do that - but I bet I'm dead right about what went down with the majority of them.
That's what makes it site meta.

I would imagine their rate of being lynched is roughly what random chance would dictate. Just like it will be here, I plan on judging as though it didn't happen. I suppose this means all scum should claim miller in games with me, but, whatever.

[Cephrir]

I will say, I feel kinda like you're using the whole miller deal as a way to play purely reactively and I'd like to see you do some legitimate scumhunting rather than continue replying to Benmage.

[Nautilius]

I can pretty much assure you that Tierce is town in this game

Can you assure me with Tammy as well? I don't think I need it, but it's nice to be reassured.

Yes, it is. That's how I figured out he was lying. He carries the same opinion you have over miller claims, and absolutely was not trying to pull a legitimate miller claim in thread.

I was specifically trying to pull a Miller claim in this thread and indicated again after the fact that it was a legit claim.
I will now do so for a third time - react accordingly.

Apologies, I admit that I fucked up.
The rest of my reaction is somewhere in the realms of ignoring you and continuing to lynch scum if you don't mind.

[Benmage]

Are we really going to play the join date elitism game in this thread? I'd be willing to bet join date is not statistically significant for anything except possibly being mislynched D1. Most 2013s are probably better scumhunters than me. So kindly take that argument and [redacted for decency].

Okay, thats not what I meant (and old players who barely play 1-2 times a year... dont really count).. I got hooked, and was speaking in generalities. Yes Tierce new players can be good. But obviously thats more the anomaly then the norm. Simply because mafia is a complex game, our site there's a learning curve. Do you want someone straight out of med school operating on you, or someone whose done the procedure a thousand times... Thats all my point is, whether you think Im good or not, or like me or not.. I've been around the block.

Anywhoseee sorry for getting hooked I am going thru a bit and at my wits end. I think I've properly beaten this horse.

[PeaceBringer]

It seems fine to me and not particularly worse than any of the actual noise going on in this thread... if you can't explain this better than I don't know what you're talking about

did you not get maybe culture, when you are used to the noise factor it is not quite as noted but there was nothing of meaning there...just space. There is a lot of that... please note I come from where no one really explains thoughts and a paragraph would be considered a lot of detail... it is quite different than when I played before where there was a distinct lack of noise or any real engagement... but that is a side note, just to me came off as a lot of words with little meaning

[Benmage]

-He himself agrees the logic to write a miller claim off as conftown doesn't add up. I ask him for a meta reference.. he gives me the ropeadope.. and I'm the jackSmurf .

You'll note I also asked you to provide meta, and you gave me an equivalent ropeadope - so that's a pretty weak backhand coming from you.
If we want to do this seriously one of us would need to dig up all the Miller claims for the past year and examine them.
I'm personally never going to do that - but I bet I'm dead right about what went down with the majority of them.
That's what makes it site meta.

I missed you requesting me to provide source material. I did specifically mention that our mod himself, successfully had a partner as scum fake claim miller. I also referenced which I'm sure you must be aware of the infamous KK fakemiller claim, win. I asked you for specifics... not to check every miller claim on site, but just where your version may have stemmed from.

So that has been my point... That being Miller in no way confirms you town.

Are you merely saying now, that claiming miller will just make you a subject of disagreement and therefore be tough to lynch? Cause I agree there, but that's not the first impression I got. Is this the case?

[Benmage]

I didn't realize by saying that my slightly oddball role strongly indicated I was town when I invited any non-regular cop to check and confirm me as town.

How would confirming you "role" confirm your alignment?

[Cephrir]

Roles were assigned before alignments. THerefore Thor is almost certainly a miller and that almost certainly has no bearing on his alignment. Now can we please move on.

[Amrun]

Yeah...it just felt strident, like maybe you knew I was town and were looking for the bonus points for the easy defense.
You don't think it looked that way?

Why the fuck would I think it looked that way?

What kind of question is this?


Seriously - what did you hope to accomplish by asking this question? (I don't mind questions in general, but this one irks me.)

[Benmage]

Ceph, that in no way changes the fact that Thor could be fakeclaiming miller.

So yeah... judge him on his play has still be my statement. I guess the "auto-confirm town" was a joke, and I didn't see that.

henceinternetsarcasmishardtoreadandyesthoryoushouldusetags

[Alfred Borden]

@Nacho:

Let's talk about some stuff while I'm still around (well, I'll have to reply to it later but you know what I mean <_<).

I need you to go into more detail on the

Cephrir

townread since I was kinda vacillating earlier between scum and now null for him. I had a line of questioning going with him about his Shadoweh read but I kinda hit a wall with it and feel like I don't have anything really alignment revealing from him. #152 struck me as off when I read it in that he lists two popular-ish townreads and then downgrades his read on Shadoweh based off of one post at a time when a few people started FoSing her on the side. That read shift seemed suspicious to me because it seemed more like it was borne out of opportunism than anything else and it seemed like he shoved the two extra reads in there for padding. I caught the earlier townread he had in #77 so I questioned him about it and the read change. When asked, he says the earlier townread was based on gut, which is fine as that's valid but it's also something easy for scum to hide behind so I didn't really get anything from it. The rest of his play seems fairly textbook/inoffensive to me? There's a bit of stuff that I like (for example, how he's dealt with the Thor/Benmage argument in the thread) but nothing that's unequivocally town from him.

As far as

Goat

is concerned, I didn't find him voting for Ceph when the P&J wagon was going despite approving of it to be scummy as that's pretty standard CDB from what I remember of his meta. What bothered me was that there was no follow-up on P&J (e.g., what happened to his P&J read). I asked him about it and got what I felt was a pretty boilerplate (?) response from him. Aside from that, if I channel my inner Dutch Nibbler, I'd say they feel vaguely uncomfortable and haven't been as strong a presence in the thread but nothing substantial.

I'll give my own thoughts on

mollie

later but I want them to answer Tammy's #431 as that's the same question I had while going through this thread and, to my knowledge, they haven't answered it yet.

I read through your reasons for

ooba

being town but he seems like the kind of dude who's competent as scum and as such his posting seems pretty fakeable to me. Don't have as much time to talk about it right now since my time's running out but I will later.

Also, has Elli taken a look at this thread yet? If so, what are his thoughts (especially on P&J)?

[Alfred Borden]

did you not get maybe culture, when you are used to the noise factor it is not quite as noted but there was nothing of meaning there...just space. There is a lot of that... please note I come from where no one really explains thoughts and a paragraph would be considered a lot of detail... it is quite different than when I played before where there was a distinct lack of noise or any real engagement... but that is a side note, just to me came off as a lot of words with little meaning

Yawn.

I write lots of words because I actually value complete transparency and engagement, especially when the game's of this size (it becomes easier to miss things). Sometimes, I'll direct things at specific people because either I'm trying to sort the player in question out or I'm trying to see where that person is coming from on a particular read (especially if the player in question is someone I've played with a lot/trust/respect).

But thanks for dismissing my actual thoughts/method as "noise" and "substanceless". Really fucking appreciated.

[Thor665]

I will say, I feel kinda like you're using the whole miller deal as a way to play purely reactively and I'd like to see you do some legitimate scumhunting rather than continue replying to Benmage.

I still don't think you understand how I play.
Also, hint, I am scumhunting.

Apologies, I admit that I Smurfed up.
The rest of my reaction is somewhere in the realms of ignoring you and continuing to lynch scum if you don't mind.

Weren't you going to vote me for my stance *except* that you knew I was faking?
So...shouldn't you vote me now that you know I wasn't?

I asked you for specifics... not to check every miller claim on site, but just where your version may have stemmed from.

Well, go with any game I've been in with a Miller claim Day 1 Post 1 for starters.
As I said already.

So that has been my point... That being Miller in no way confirms you town.

And...as *I've* said already - I totally agree that this is a sensible mindset.
that said, site meta doesn't follow said mindset, so I don't really see the point.

Are you merely saying now, that claiming miller will just make you a subject of disagreement and therefore be tough to lynch?

I have never said that - though, yes, I suppose it's true.

Cause I agree there, but that's not the first impression I got.

I would hope not, as it's not what I said nor meant.

I didn't realize by saying that my slightly oddball role strongly indicated I was town when I invited any non-regular cop to check and confirm me as town.

How would confirming you "role" confirm your alignment?

I know someone said they had a game with a Miller scum (and speaking of mods that need to be slapped...then again, I've been traitor in a game where that was the VT PM...again, speaking of mods that need to be slapped) .
That said, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that's non-standard. The basic premise of a Miller is that it's a town role. Just like with my traitor town gak - just because it has happened does not mean it's worth touting out as remotely the way things happen 99% of the time.
I also believe my alignment is verifiable if there is a non regular cop that can verify alignment some way.
Also, your case is pretty dumb, there's that too
"Oh, Thor thinks his role makes him town, unlike all other PR role claims in existence, oh, oh, oh! I'm so experienced, but apparently this is a shocking and new thing to me!"

Seriously - what did you hope to accomplish by asking this question? (I don't mind questions in general, but this one irks me.)

Why does it irk you so much, it's a question about your take on my read of you?
This feels defensive and deflectionary.

I hoped to get a read on you - that's sort of the point of most questions, last I checked.
What did you think my purpose was to get defensive about it?


-----------

In other news, I'm okay with the idea of Alfred ending up dead now.

[Amrun]

Why does it irk you so much, it's a question about your take on my read of you?
This feels defensive and deflectionary.

I hoped to get a read on you - that's sort of the point of most questions, last I checked.
What did you think my purpose was to get defensive about it?

I don't understand how that question would help you get a read on me.

What did you expect me to say, as either alignment? "Yeah, I totally busted his balls because I was scum looking for towncred!"

Like, what the fuck?

The question of the premise doesn't even make sense. I have no idea how what I would do would generate towncred in the first place. I did it simply because it was my natural reaction and as an attempt to read Zdenek.

[Alfred Borden]

Anyway, I need to go over the Thor/Benmage argument once more when I come back since I haven't looked too deeply into it, as well as finally sort out the meta stuff.

Also, Syryana, your vote actually rather sucks and you need to step it up. Pretty sure I've posted a lot about my balls. Those are pretty slam dunk towntells here.

P-edit: above applies to you too Thor (also, I'm thinking Benmage and Amrun are probtown from what I've read).

[Cephrir]

@Thor: I don't get your playstyle, nor do I care for it. We've got three walls about Benmage and now one throwaway comment about Alfred. I don't get why you'd handle two apparent scumreads in polar opposite ways. And least of all, I don't get your fascination with trying to deliberately infuriate people while insisting they answer your questions without answering any of theirs.

[Amrun]

Wow, my English in that previous post is REALLY bad. I'm tired, sorry.

[Goat on a Raft]

I'd say they feel vaguely uncomfortable and haven't been as strong a presence in the thread but nothing substantial.

With 24 players alive, this is to be expected. This head rarely plays large games for a reason.

What are your townreads and why?

1. Alfred - there was a reason for this but it was early in the thread and I forget the specifics. Bet it was a really ace reason.
2. Cephrir (probably) - liked the way he joined the Elle wagon.
3. elleheathen (probably) - again, there was a reason but I forgot. This is pretty much how I'm going to approach it with this many alive - file away townreads to be dealt with later and just get on with it unless something makes me sit up and re-evaluate.
4. Garruk - I thought the "if I were a speculating type" thing in 403 came across as genuine.
5. Kanye - 100% both-heads-approved legit townread. Fact.
6. Nautilus - There may have been another thing that I didn't write down but at least part of it is the fact that when Nacho incorrectly scumreads me he's usually town.
7. PeaceBringer (maybe) - That's all I got (and I only noted that last night. well done me)
8. PrideandJoy - Might reconsider this, had Dantown vibes but, on quick ISO-skim to see if I could remember anything specific, I found out chesskid may have been posting more than I thought he was. We'll see, I guess.
9. quadz - already discussed
10. Tammy - Looks different to Red Wedding, carefree.
11. Tierce - I *think* looks different to Red Wedding, also sheeping people who know better than me.

Also, Amrun was one of those I was waiting on and assuming that I'd get a read eventually and I

think

she's just done enough to make me settle on town. But maybe don't quote me on that just yet.

So we're narrowing it down. Now please imagine all of the first-person identification in this post was using "we" because I enjoy the unattainable mystery of it being hard to tell which of us is posting.

[ooba]

Oh posh, you're a 006, you're *way* better than Benmage.

!! Wait so that would make me....

Spoiler:

---

@Alfred:

I do find Shadow scummy - but I find kanye scummy too - my scum meter didnt get pinged by Shadow so much that I thought I needed to move my vote.

Things that need to happen:
- kanye needs to start posting again
- Those who haven't started playing should; the two posts above mac's were really bad
- I'll need to give this entire game a re-read tomorrow

[Garruk Relentless]

Hey Benmage, both SSK and I have older join dates than you. Can we call you a shit?

In any case, I don't think this thor discussion is really going to go anywhere--if he's scum, I will believe he's scum due to his actions. In any case, Thor responded in approximately the same way I would have to being a miller and Benmage's inquisition.

I still am keeping an eye on Elle, but UNVOTE: for the moment. I'm not exactly sure where SSK wants to head at the moment and it might ultimately be back onto the Elleheathen wagon, but we missed each other due to the crash yesterday and are unlikely to get a chance to speak for a day or two.

[Alfred Borden]

Oh and I forgot to say, Nacho, you can be reassured that Tammy's town. As in, this is probably the best I've felt about her alignment since Castle Zar.

See you Sunday.

[Thor665]

The question of the premise doesn't even make sense. I have no idea how what I would do would generate towncred in the first place. I did it simply because it was my natural reaction and as an attempt to read Zdenek.

Your natural reaction thus far this game has been defense of not getting too screamy.
Why do you think this moment generated screams if it was not faked? I know it was your "natural reaction" and all...but it doesn't seem to gel with your other "natural reactions" in this thread, yeah?

P-edit: above applies to you too Thor

My vote is pretty awesome right where it is - even if you think Benmage is town what makes that read so awesome as to make my vote suck?
His case on me is pretty nonexistent for the strength of it, easily justifying my reaction to it.
What do you see that I'm missing?

@Thor: I don't get your playstyle, nor do I care for it.

Then you should probably stop commenting on my meta.

We've got three walls about Benmage and now one throwaway comment about Alfred.

That you missed multiple discussions with others as well as multiple other reads within those walls kind of leaves me wondering why I should listen to anything you're saying.
Are you reading the game?
I know I didn't read a lot of it, but at least I read what I comment on...do you?

I don't get why you'd handle two apparent scumreads in polar opposite ways.

Why shouldn't I? I can't vote twice, so why should I case wall twice?

And least of all, I don't get your fascination with trying to deliberately infuriate people while insisting they answer your questions without answering any of theirs.

Did I do that? That would be GAKKED UP!
Quote the question I didn't answer.
I'll immediately answer it and self-vote!