Newbie 1433 - Game Over


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:43 pm

Post by Regfan »

In post 397, Nominull wrote:Hunting any scum but 2Pac would be to the town's detriment, and I don't believe in hunting town. So I'm sort of stuck.
Both of these are wrong. I'll explain;

1) Focusing solely on one person creates tunnel vision, tunnel vision leads towards not being able to look at information objectively which leads towards more mslynches. Not just that, focusing solely on one person creates less shared information in the town which leads to less agreements about lynches. It also means you can miss when scum slip up elsewhere and therefore lead to more town loses. So focusing and only reading one player for alignment related tells is a dreadful idea. And trust me, I have a lot of experience on multiple mafia sites and like to think my town game is relatively strong so if you're going to take one thing on board is that's focusing on one person is a bad idea.

2) While there's the argument that holds some ground in that "Stating town-reads helps mafia decide who to kill or who on to kill" the benefits outweight the negatives massively. I'll elaborate; Stating town-reads allows A) People to understand where you're coming from more thereby allowing them to get a better read on you, getting a better read on you allows less mslynches B) Allows people to consider others from a different point of view and thereby allows them to reassess and go "Oh, X has a good point on that, Y might be town" which increases unity in town reads which helps a lot. C) It allows there to be process of elimination used. If you can agree on 3-4 players being town the odds of lynching mafia increase massively. D) Allows people to have your reads if you die which means you can leave your thoughts and mark on the game. Also about the disadvantage mafia generally know already who is and isn't likely to be lynched therefore outting the reads in the public doesn't really do any harm.



Look I'm not going to argue that continuously lurking and not being in the game isn't scummy because in truth it is, also I just checked Satan and 2Pacs profile and both logged on last night and didn't post. I also checked this is both of their only games. That means they logged on, read the thread and didn't post. It also means they logged on, saw they were voted and didn't post. That's actually a relatively strong scum tell but I think you're just tunnel-visioning 2Pac a little too much and not paying enough attention elsewhere. For instance please take a step back for one second (Please, I'm trying to work with you here) and read and comment on and because I've caught Satan in a 100% lie here and one that makes zero sense coming from town but a lot coming from scum. Also 2Pac blew it of as him being "newb" and not "scum" with zero reasoning so if you're as confident as you claim you are about 2Pac being scum then that makes Satan a super likely partner to him with him attempting to defend his partner with terrible reasoning and not comment on the case. So yeah, please do one thing for me and read those posts and actually converse with me about it.

Also pretty sure Nominull's town from the last few posts. In fact super sure. Which means Ree/Sthar/Nominull/Ranway/Fuzzy are all town. Which leaves scum inside of [Skelda, Satan, 2Pac] and I don't think Satan / Skelda work as a scum team at all and given Satans scum slip that means it's Satan + 2Pac in all probability. So Nominull, can we lynch Satan today and when he flips scum I'll work with you tomorrow to lynch 2Pac?
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:56 pm

Post by Nominull »

I think you put massively too much trust in your townreads. That's why I don't like them, "process of elimination" doesn't really work. You want me to go from my solid scumread on 2Pac to Satan based on stuff like "Mr. Ree wouldn't have boasted about his abilities as scum" and "Satan is obviously scum so that means Skelda can't be scum because he voted for him". I'll make you a counter-offer, let's lynch 2Pac and then we can see about Satan. It would do the wagon good to have somebody "respectable" on it, and the window for the day 1 lynch is closing.
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:57 pm

Post by Nominull »

Here's something for you to ponder, as a show of my good faith: if Mr. Ree is such a good townie, why is he voting for me and not 2Pac?
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:02 pm

Post by Nominull »

About the contradiction you have found: I would really like to hear Satan defend himself before I make my comments. If he hasn't addressed the issue by the end of monday I will join his wagon.
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Post by Regfan »

Nominull, Satans not scum because Mr Ree is town or because Skelda isn't partners with him or anything to that extent.
Please read the link I gave you.
Also I never said that Ree is a "Good townie", merely that he considers himself as one; I've never played with him before. Also I put trust in my town reads because I'm generally fairly pin-point and spot on with them.

If you need a summary why Satans scum here's a quick one;

Satan had a scum read on Skelda. Suddenly a wagon formed on Bob. Satan suddenly has a scum read on Bob and votes him putting Bob to L-1. He says that Bob is really scummy and makes a case on Bob. Satan says that he's positive that Bob is flipping scum and says he wants a Bob lynch. The Bob wagon starts to vanish. Satan changes his vote back to Skelda.
Satan says that he never really found Bob scummy and that Skelda was his strongest scum read all along.
The underlined is a confirmed lie and proves that his vote on Bob was to push a mslynch.


Glad you actually read it.
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:09 pm

Post by Mr_Ree »

In post 402, Nominull wrote:Here's something for you to ponder, as a show of my good faith: if Mr. Ree is such a good townie, why is he voting for me and not 2Pac?
Scumpost.

Answer: because I'm right. I'm always right. Now that I'm on the mend, I can finally hop back into this. :mrgreen:
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:10 pm

Post by Regfan »

Ree, I'm pretty damn positive that Nom's town. His last two pages worth of posting has been incredible sincere.

Anyway fully catch up and then vote Satan.
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:43 pm

Post by Mr_Ree »

In post 263, Skelda wrote:So, town, who of archiebob and fuzzylogic would you rather see die today? I think I'd prefer fuzzy, but I'd settle for archie too. But no one other than them is dying today.

Actually, the way archie jumped on fuzzy could be majorly opportunistic scum, since he seemed so convinced of fuzzy's innocence until he started getting votes. Thoughts?
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:46 pm

Post by Mr_Ree »

In post 406, Regfan wrote:Ree, I'm pretty damn positive that Nom's town. His last two pages worth of posting has been incredible sincere.

Anyway fully catch up and then vote Satan.
Working on it. Going to see how this pans out. I'm seeing some bad play so far.
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:43 pm

Post by Regfan »

I'll give you a quick summary as to why I'm pretty sure he's town Ree:

1. In he openly admits that his play is stupid nonsense and stated that it's true that he shouldn't get away with it and neither should 2Pac. I don't see scum openly stating "Yeah, I can see you lynching me but you should lynch him too", they'd be more defensive than that. The phrasing of his is a rather solid town tell, he's really not scared of being lynched at all and considers him getting run up (And reads gained by it) or 2Pac run up (And his scum read voted) as win-win. I don't think scum would see it as that at all. On the same note his is town. Scum don't say "
This town is broken, absolutely broken. If you won't lynch me for this, why would anybody, ever, bother to play if they were scum? If you can't use social enforcement mechanisms you can't win; the whole design of the game is "social enforcement mechanisms vs. bad actors". I want to win as much as the next guy, but I know that with this attitude we won't. So I'm taking heroic measures to try to change your mind.
" at all.

2. If you look at his prior games he shows that; 1) He can scumhunt as town 2) He can fake scumhunting as mafia and 3) He gets frustrated by players like 2Pac as town. So while I don't think he's done a lot of 1) his play here is much closer to his town meta than his scum meta. And I think when getting flak for his attack he'd have reverted to doing 2) as mafia here and he hasn't, he's stuck to his guns.

3. I think his posts show that he legitimately believes that lynching 2Pac is in our best interest and find very genuine.
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:18 am

Post by TheFuzzylogic99 »

Regfan

Im not too familial with metas but what I have read from Wiki page they can be flawed and inaccurate at times. Please explain why we should depend on meta and why you feel that your read on Nom meta is good . Thanks

Honestly im starting to get frustrated with Nom. I am pondering if his actions are not anti town because they have been pretty hurtful to the town. His actions of tunneling 2Pac seem a major distraction to the town and has hindered the ability to catch scum . Im not going to say that he is scum but I am starting to ponder the possibilities. I have not read your links yet but plan to later on. I honestly want to believe Nom is town but he is making it a bit harder to.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:27 am

Post by Regfan »

It really depends on how you use meta, if you compare only a persons game here (X) with a town game (Y) and state "X is different to Y therefore he's mafia here in X" you're not using it correctly. To be able to assess whether meta has any real merit or not you need to really be able to compare a town and a scum game so you can see how they act as both alignments. Also the more completed games they have and the more you read through the more reliable the meta is. Really though what I mainly use meta for is to find an indicator on what sort of skill level a player is so I can assess are they smart enough to do A or B as mafia or not. And in Nom's case his play here resembles his town a lot more than his scum and his scum shows he knows how to fake scumhunt therefore his actions here make more sense as town than scum.

The larger reason I think he's town isn't meta though; I think him stating that he's fine getting lynched if it means that 2Pac gets lynched and that he's taking heroic measures to see his point of view is insanely town.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:31 am

Post by Ranawey »

Sorry about my absence, there's a lot of things going on irl.

I've got a feeling that we can't trust Regfan at all, he seems too townsided, but oh well, I can't be sure, it's just a feeling.

Anyways, he did spot satan's scumslip, and I agree with that, and also feel dumb because of not noticing it, heh. Anyways, I won't put him on L-1 until he answers Reg's accusations.

I'll just unvote for now.

Unvote
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:35 am

Post by SatanHellYeah »

@Regfan
So, basically, I am scum because my real intentions are a fake. My vote on Bob, did it actually put him at L-1? Didn't notice. I'd probably haven't done it if I had knew about it.
The point is, I really never thought he was scum. You are the living proof of him being town. I might be bad, but not scum. However, I don't think I am going to change your mind. Your read is very solid. I deserve to be lyched as much as Skelda, for my behavior is not transparent enough.
So let me propose this. Let's lynch him. Maybe when he turns scum you will believe in my innocence. Maybe you won't
Please, reconsider your read.

Let me see if I can make anything clearer, but I'm posting from my phone, so it will take a.while.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:40 am

Post by Ranawey »

Why don't we lynch you and then we decide about Skelda? Same stuff.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:46 am

Post by Ranawey »

Also, your reaction to bob's replacement could be seen as scummy, since you had scumreads on him and wanted a lynch after Skelda's.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:48 am

Post by SatanHellYeah »

Well, I can accept my game was shitty. Shitty enough to put me in this situation. I can't deny I was way too aggressive, and that is the main problem.

But I cannot say anything that I hadn't already explained. So, I'll let it be.

@Ranawey
Because I will flip town, and you will then have wasted a lynch.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:50 am

Post by Ranawey »

And what if Skelda flips town?
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:51 am

Post by Ranawey »

It isn't because your aggressivity, it's because your slip.
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:57 am

Post by SatanHellYeah »

@Ranawey
I did not have scumreads on Bob. You can see he was town just taking a look at his replacement. What in hell is scummy about my reaction when he left, by the way?

Ninjaedit: I am pretty sure he will flip scum.
Doubleninjaedit: My "slips" are probably the result of being aggressive and newbie.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:00 am

Post by Ranawey »

...

Ok, guys, I agree on Satan's lynch.
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:02 am

Post by Ranawey »

Satan, read reg's accusations, it's mainly based on you wanting to get lynched Bob someday.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:06 am

Post by Ranawey »

and then you say you never thought he was scum.
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:08 am

Post by SatanHellYeah »

Yes, I've already stated.that. And I've said as well that my beliefs are my beliefs, if you think they are lies... gues I can't blame you. That are, after all, your beliefs.
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:10 am

Post by SatanHellYeah »

Guess*
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