Mini 1501: We're On A Boat! (END?! results inside)

[pitoli]

VOTE COUNT 1.1

Brian Skies:

Garmr, Kazekirimaru, ChannelDelibird

Garmr:

Brian Skies, Smudger

Not Voting:

SpyreX, YYR, notscience, Maestro, fferyllt, Aeronaut, CrashTextDummie, Plum

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Time until deadline: (expired on 2013-10-17 00:00:00)

Mod Notes

:

This boat is

real!!

Plum is V/LA until this Saturday.

[Garmr]

@Smudger
Garmer is a dog that guards the underworld in norse mythology. The picture in my profile is Garmr, he is said to be stained in the blood of the dead.

[Kazekirimaru]

Not sure how to feel about miller claim.

Seen it legit before; seen it used as a scum gambit before.

[notscience]

Cool, I think CDB is town thus far.

VOTE: Smudger

[ChannelDelibird]

That's the extent of your comment on the miller situation, notscience?

[notscience]

Yup.

Miller claims are absolutely null and wifom.

[ChannelDelibird]

In a vacuum, sure.

How

they're made isn't. What do you think of #17?

[Kazekirimaru]

Yup.

Miller claims are absolutely null and wifom.

The fuck they are.

[notscience]

It's got fair points, yes.

Although, here's the thing.

It's an RVS wagon, aka low pressure. Scum fakeclaims usually come with increased pressure. The "look at other people" bit was admittedly bad.

[ChannelDelibird]

Scum fakeclaims usually come with increased pressure.

Not if they're fakeclaiming miller as a gambit, obviously. If they weren't going to immediately claim, they wouldn't bother. Brian has made it clear that he understands it's protown to claim immediately as miller, so the votes on him are coincidental in that regard.

[notscience]

hm.

VOTE: Brian

[fferyllt]

Brian is a fairly new player. You think he'd enter an MS game with a gambit?

[CrashTextDummie]

Lynch all D1 miller claims.

vote: Brian Skies

[fferyllt]

Yeah just checked to see if he has any completed games at MS. Still none.

CTD you have any prior games where you've followed that policy?

[CrashTextDummie]

TV U-Pick mafia

[fferyllt]

TV U-Pick mafia

That game has no conclusion. What happened? Was it eaten by tigers?

[CrashTextDummie]

Huh. I suppose it was. The scum were Ghostwriter, plenty and RedFF.

[CrashTextDummie]

And they all survived to endgame and won.

[Brian Skies]

Brian is a fairly new player. You think he'd enter an MS game with a gambit?

It seems like a dumb gambit to me considering nothing should give me the confidence that says I'd get away with it.

But considering that I have already stated I expect the town to kill me at some point in this game (most likely pretty damn early), then do you think I would have more to gain as town or as scum?

[fferyllt]

Brian is a fairly new player. You think he'd enter an MS game with a gambit?

It seems like a dumb gambit to me considering nothing should give me the confidence that says I'd get away with it.

But considering that I have already stated I expect the town to kill me at some point in this game (most likely pretty damn early), then do you think I would have more to gain as town or as scum?

As town, the gain is to town more than to you personally. Investigative and protective roles can put you aside as a target. The main thing a miller gains IMO is a sense of liberty from concerns about being lynched. Lynch may happen, but it will be because of the miller's role more than because of their play. Taking that concern off the table leaves time and energy for finding scum, finding town, developing reads, etc.

As scum, I dunno. I know scum players sometimes gambit with miller, but IMO it would be really difficult to fabricate the sense of liberty that comes with the miller role.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm just going to quote myself from that game, because it's all still relevant and I can't expect everyone to follow the link:

D1 miller claims should always be scrutinized. Statistically, a miller claim is far more likely to come from scum since the "power" they are claiming, coming up guilty upon investigation, is present in the majority of scum roles whereas millers only appear in a fraction of games. Sitewide meta on how to handle miller claims fluctuates over time. Judging by this game, where no one is batting an eye at someone going "hey, I come up guilty when investigated, problem?", a lot more scum are going to claim miller in the near future across all games.

Claiming miller is not null. Claiming miller is admitting to a role characteristic that the vast majority of scum roles possesses. Claiming miller also doesn't just have merits as a scum gambit if it instantly makes you look town, the entire point of claiming miller as scum is to sidestep and invalidate the cop role.

I don't think claiming miller on D1 is even optimal pro-town play, but this is up to debate.

I know for a fact that this game has several scum roles that would come up as guilty upon a cop investigation (this game was not announced to be bastard). I do not know for a fact that this game features a miller. To suggest that a claim should simply be discarded as if it never happened is completely ludicrous, as claiming is about the most extreme act a player can take in a game of mafia, and one that is always dictated by intent and motive (i.e. the bread and butter of scumhunting).

Your alleged town motive is weak. A cop investigation can be avoided by playing to the town win condition during the day. Your scum motive is strong. There's only one way to avoid death in the long run upon being cop investigated as scum: by establishing a miller claim.

Brian's alleged town motive is even weaker than Ghostwriter's was in that game:

I wiki'ed my role and it says the safer route is to outright claim and prevent a wasted investigative report at the cost of my own life.

I strongly question whether this is the truth, because the wiki states no such thing. Claiming on D1 is not presented as the "safer" route , it's presented as one of two comparable schools of thought.

And then he lays the WIFOM on thickly:

But considering that I have already stated I expect the town to kill me at some point in this game (most likely pretty damn early), then

do you think I would have more to gain as town or as scum?

Wording of the underlined is way off, considering he himself has established the benefit of claiming early as town, and it's not to himself.

[Brian Skies]

I strongly question whether this is the truth, because the wiki states no such thing. Claiming on D1 is not presented as the "safer" route , it's presented as one of two comparable schools of thought.

I seem to have misread it. I could have sworn there was some mention of it being safer. I guess I was wrong. *shrugs

But considering that I have already stated I expect the town to kill me at some point in this game (most likely pretty damn early), then

do you think I would have more to gain as town or as scum?

Wording of the underlined is way off, considering he himself has established the benefit of claiming early as town, and it's not to himself.

I don't see a problem with the wording. It's written as intended.

If claiming miller early benefits the town in some way, then logically, that would also benefit me if I was town since I would win so long as town wins.
If claiming miller early benefits the scum in some way, then logically, that would also benefit me if I was scum since I would win so long as scum wins.

You have to remember, I'm playing for my team, not just for myself. Which is why I don't care about dying as long as my team can do something with it. Saving an investigation report seems like a good way to do that.

[Aeronaut]

Um... Ahoy?


VOTE: Brian

[fferyllt]

I think that's L-1.

I don't think we should be ending the day this quickly.

[notscience]

UNVOTE:

^