Any tips about balancing a setup?

[GuyInFreezer]

I couldn't find any articles/threads about it so
Any tips about what to look for when balancing a setup?

[Magua]

The biggest thing is how quickly can the town win vs how quickly can the town lose. With non-killing roles, this is easiest expressed as a # of mislynches to loss vs # of mafia members. Usually, it should take more mislynches than there are mafia members (eg, in a 10:3, 4 mislynches is a loss, vs 3 mafia members). This gets trickier if there are also additional kills, but you should still consider the best case vs worst case scenario.

Beyond that:
- Don't allow protective chains (eg, two Doctors who can protect eachother).
- Take careful note of the investigative roles / confirmability of roles. You want some, but not too many.
- Consider what happens if town massclaims. What do scum claim in this scenario? Does it break the game for town?
- Is one role key to the setup? If so, that's usually bad. Also, expect that role to die D1/N1.

I remember reading a guide here about designing normals that had guidelines as to putting in protective roles, investigative roles, etc, but a quick search is not showing it to me.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Never ever ever include both a mafia role blocker and a town jailkeeper. Ever ever ever. XD

But what magua said pretty much sums up everything I check before submitting a setup. I run through the game in my head/on paper. For instance, in favor of scum, what is the worst case lynch D1, what is the worst case combination of night actions, etc. I think about, what if scum have the best luck in the world, when would it be game over? Then I flip it and try from townside. Generally, if the game ends before Day 3, you have some work to do.

[FakeGod]

Basic things to consider:

Do a probabilities calculation/test run assuming random lynches every night and aim for 50/50.
Make sure there is no easy way to break the setup. (defend your setup vs an early massclaim at least)
Don't rely on one role to fix your setup. (i.e. relying only on a mafia roleblocker to counter a doc and a cop)
Will flavor be useful or not useful in actual gameplay? Does it matter if only half the players know the flavor? Can they be mislead by the flavor? (A Harry Potter claim in a Harry Potter Flavor mafia might have additional weight to it than you might want, etc)
Priority of the night/day actions need to be set in stone beforehand. (How does roleblockers interact with jailkeepers?)

More things to consider:

Town tends to be discouraged if there are no mafia flips for awhile. I'm sure you can design a 12 vs 1 setup that has a superpower mafia role and technically balanced, but do realize that town will be seeing town flips after town flips for a long time, and they're probably going to hate it.
Post-Restrictions might be funny for couple posts, but will the player enjoy it for the rest of the game?
Unless it's bastard setup, putting in actions that rely on random chances is discouraged. (enabling the players will let them have fun; letting the game be dictated by random chance outside of any players' control ensures that players stop having fun)
Make sure all possible endgames are accounted for in your wincons. If there are 1 Mafia A scum, 1 Mafia B scum, and 1 town VT, who wins?
Never make your wincons ambiguous.
Consider extreme cases.
If you can, design your game so that it favors the scum slightly if town is random lynching. (for example, Assassins in the Palace is a setup that favors town given random lynches; ergo, best town strategy is to quicklynch without discussion; try to avoid that if you want a game that isn't series of quicklynches)

[Vi]

Don't rely on one role to fix your setup. (i.e. relying only on a mafia roleblocker to counter a doc and a cop)

The prevailing thought in F11 newbies was that if a Mafia Roleblocker got lynched D1, the scum team deserved to lose.

If you can, design your game so that it favors the scum slightly if town is random lynching.

Not usually a problem. <.<

[Oversoul]

I like FakeGod's contribution on the fun aspect... I forgot who said it to me... Maybe it was Callforjudgment where I had an IC in one of my games in an early iteration. You have to take the player's fun into account when making your setup. You are doing it for them. Not yourself.

ETL, what is wrong with a Scum Roleblocker vs a Town Jailkeeper? As long as you explain how role interactions work broadly in a post that should not be a problem for your players. Alternatively, you could be like Faraday and Zor and alter the action resolution to prioritize a particular blocker.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Oversoul, it was more of a joke about my first mini normal cuz I included both and it was a disaster.

[Magua]

I found the guide I was thinking of: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Flavorless

[FakeGod]

If you can, design your game so that it favors the scum slightly if town is random lynching.

Not usually a problem. <.<

◕ ‿‿ ◕

When there's enough VIs in your game, anything becomes possible.

[FakeGod]

The prevailing thought in F11 newbies was that if a Mafia Roleblocker got lynched D1, the scum team deserved to lose.

Well, that's just poor.

I don't think any one lynch should be that much game breaking, especially in a newbie game.

[Vi]

I don't think any one lynch should be that much game breaking, especially in a newbie game.

That's pretty much how 7P setups tend to work.

In addition, games on this site are scum-sided enough without adding backups to the scum roles that already keep the Town down.

[quadz08]

Don't put in too many blocking roles (read: more than 1 unless you're doing a very large game). Blocking chains are awful for you to resolve AND for players to figure out. They suck.

Use X-shot roles, especially for swingy / very powerful roles (Cop and Vig spring to mind).

Do you think it's balanced? Make town stronger. Then get a reviewer to tell you that your scum is still too strong.

[borkjerfkin]

Do you think it's balanced? Make town stronger. Then get a reviewer to tell you that your scum is still too strong.

so much this

[N]

Don't put in too many blocking roles (read: more than 1 unless you're doing a very large game). Blocking chains are awful for you to resolve AND for players to figure out. They suck.

Why is this a thing in Newbie games then?

[quadz08]

because the role resolution is built specifically to account for it, because 9player semi-opens with normal roles are basically impossible to balance.

[callforjudgement]

The advice in this thread here is generally good, but I'll mention something else: count the number of players who are likely / possible to get confirmed as town / scum to the town at large through night actions.

If you have five confirmed townies on day 3 of a Mini, for instance, the setup's probably in trouble. Or if the only confirmations town can get are on scum, the setup's going to be very very swingy (and you might not want that). Counting the number can also give a rough guide to balance (for a Mini, the optimal number is approximately 3 by 5p lylo, although loads of factors can change this, especially because the power of some roles varies according to the other roles in the setup). Note that it isn't just investigative roles that confirm players; protective roles and roleblockers can confirm players via blocking the scum nightkill, for instance, and protective roles can amplify the power of other roles by increasing their expected lifespan. Communicative roles can help to get weak confirmations on players through QT scumhunting, but typically aren't as strong as investigative roles (except when they're used to break the setup).

[Katsuki]

Setup balance is mostly common sense.

For example, if you are running a mini 13p, give town a doc, a vig and a cop, and give scum a single godfather, then it's probably not balanced (Too much town power, can for example add in additional scum roleblocker to offset, or remove/limit town roles.).
Conversely, if you keep the above townroles the same, but give scum a roleblocker, a godfather and a rolecop, it's probably too strong for the scum (in this case, either balance positively for town, or negatively for scum).

[quadz08]

not a word of your 2nd paragraph is anything remotely approaching common sense

also, dear god, do NOT give your town all 3 of those roles at full power in a 13p

[Katsuki]

The point was more so common sense. I typed the first 3 roles that came to me (probably also the 3 most common).

If you change that to a one-shot vig, pretty much you get what most mini normals consisted of when I played them (2 of godfather/rolecop/roleblocker vs a town like that). Balance 3 years might be different than what it is now.

p.s. Most people hate follow the cop. From a personal standpoint, cop is a terribly overpowered role unless there are a ton of roles to interfere with it (eg. lots of methods for false negatives/positives).

[Tamuz]

Sounds like you're saying 1:1 powerroles YOLO.

[BROseidon]

The point was more so common sense. I typed the first 3 roles that came to me (probably also the 3 most common).

If you change that to a one-shot vig, pretty much you get what most mini normals consisted of when I played them (2 of godfather/rolecop/roleblocker vs a town like that). Balance 3 years might be different than what it is now.

p.s. Most people hate follow the cop. From a personal standpoint, cop is a terribly overpowered role unless there are a ton of roles to interfere with it (eg. lots of methods for false negatives/positives).

Common sense here is actually "gut reactions to balance based on experience."

This advice is useless if you have limited design and play experience. Also, there's evidence that people are biased to overpower scum (as per Zoraster's data regarding recent balance).

[Katsuki]

@Tamuz:Except it's not.

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well, but it's not hard to realize when one side is far more power loaded than the other.

Which reminds me that swinginess is something to always keep in mind.

[Tamuz]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well

Not even close to explaining it.

[BROseidon]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well, but it's not hard to realize when one side is far more power loaded than the other.

Again, you're mixing up "coming sense" and "gut reaction from having designed a lot of setups/played a lot of games."

Imagine someone who has never played, or even heard of, mafia. You then explain to them the rules of the game and tell them to make a setup.

Yeah, "common sense" my ass.

[Katsuki]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well

Not even close to explaining it.

I thought it was a clean example regarding not under or over powering one side. (eg. lets throw cop watcher doc bulletproof + 6 townies vs 3 mafia goons trololol, or even 10:3 mountaineous).

Though I only used scum variation and not town but the example itself was straight forward.