Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)

[Grimgroove]

I am glad to say I am fully caught up. I think I'll do this person per person. If I forgot you, it means you haven't done shit in this game, but I doubt I will have forgotten anyone.

Pretty sure elleheathen is town. During my read-through I took notes on people, and when coming across elleheathen's remarks the resemblance between what she was saying and what I had jotted down was eerily similar. This tells me she's town. I'm one of these people who believes that a train of thought always begins from a certain mindset, and that mindsets are greatly influenced by alignment. When I see someone showing the exact same train of thought as I do, I can't help but assume they have the same mindset as well. Funnily enough, she got some similar vibe when reading my first post. Maybe we're twins seperated at birth, who knows, but she's town in my book. Posts 87, 88 and 117 all had big overlaps with my line of thinking. I could start pointing them out, but maybe they'll become clear hereunder, though I'll try not to repeat too much what has been said already.

My second biggest townread is Lord Mhork, who shows solid logic, puts pressure on the people and shows sincerity in his arguments when hunting for scum. His reads in post 74 shows a good voerview how and why he reads people, and it's looking very solid indeed. When I came into this game I had problems with his 30 but I need to reassess that. I cans ee where he's coming from now. The difference between then and now is that I have looked at the entire L-1-debate and everything surrounding it more closely, and it looks very pressureworthy indeed. I'm filing Mhork calling funky probtown under "tricks to make scum feel at ease" of some sort.
The only thing that does bother me about Mhork, but only a tiny bit, is the fact he does seem pretty self-conscious and very very wary of people calling him scum, even when they didn't. This happened twice (in 35 addressing funky and in 103 addressing shos), where he's asking if they called him scum. It's the kind of overdefensiveness I generally don't like, but given everything else has been good I'm going to le tit slide and call it a character trait.

More in next post, just wanted to get this out already. Somehow feels less tedious to seperate it into several posts.

But that's two reads down at least.

[Grimgroove]

I can already see right now bv310 is going to be a tough nut to crack if it needs cracking. I don't know if he does, but I find him quite hard to read, due to minimalistic interventions. But despite the minimalism, I do have to say logic shines through the little he says. Now, I try to be careful with calling the use of logic a towntell, just as much I try to avoid considering not being good at logic a scumtell. But if one is confident in displaying logic it does give off the vibe that this person is also confident that logic will get him through this game. I'm not sure if scum is in a position to think this way. They need flaws in their reasoning, evidently helped by unwitting towns helping them pave the way, to get mislynches. If someone consequently uses logic with no discernable gaps I makes me townread them.
Thus I had a townread on bv103 for a while. 47 and 52 showed logic, and I agreed with 68 on shos' 62 being anti-town, though for other reasons than he mentioned (more later in post on shos).
BUT bv103 ruined everything in his post 102 which felt terribly artificial, which got me to rethink the things he said. There was very little about post 100 that was towny, or at least nothing that warranted such an "OH MY GOD I'm SHOCKED AT HOW TOWNY YOU SUDDENLY LOOK"-reaction.
Looking back at his earlier posts, his 47 and 52 are basically him calling the "use of bad logic" = scum. It's an alluring argument and not always made by scum, but people do tend to get illogical sometimes. Scum can make use of that, and somehow I don't feel now that the simple use of bad logic warrants such a strong reaction that bv103 displayed here.
There's been a sudden shift in his narrative that I don't feel explained. This shift is obviously 102[/post, but also 98 which already feels like a preparation for the unvote of shos. Suddenly shos has become an information lynch and mos tof it have been attitude tells.

I want more from bv103 for sure today. To get things started:

@bv310

: What are your thoughts on Maemuki?

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: bv310 because fellow '09.

They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.

It's not better than an opera (yet), though.

My collection of Les Miseràbles cast albums is potencially embarrasing. Seriously, I'm missing very few of them.

Also, shos, it benefits scum in a way (less townies) but it also leaves them at a disadvantage (because every other townie is now suspicious of them). So there's that.

So, Mhork, won't you even give us a teeny tiny bit of your reasoning?

Your vote, maybe?

Yet you only voted after funky did. I don't think that makes much sense, but w/e. (b'-')b

For what it's worth, I'm null/town on Malakittens for that early funky attack, nullish/sorta town on elle for general feel, but I don't trust that, and null/townish on Kazekirasomethingorother but that's a really weak guttish thing based on his whole 'Morton's Fork' discussion and general attacks on funky. I'm actually feeling null/scum on Maemuki because fluffity fluff fluff and the fact that she didn't attack my following funky onto shos and scum on funky (obviously).

[Totally gonna go off topic and answer bv: 25th Anniversary Les Mis can go die in a hole. 1988 Symphonic Recording is where it's at. Phillip Quast = GREATEST JAVERT EVER. I did enjoy the 25th Anniversary Phantom, though, as much as I can enjoy Phantom of the Opera.]

I really want to lean town on bv but I just can't due to lack of evidence and all that. Please post more so I can think you're town, bv! And of course I'm solid null on Grimgroove and I think he should be prodded with a big heavy stick. Maybe a truncheon.

Malakitty, I'm interested in this back and forth you were talking about in 27 with funky as soon as your V/LA ends.

Elle

I'm sorry I didn't understand the wine reference until just now when it clicked

do you have scum games I can look at? I haven't seen you as scum yet. Also can you do that thing where you're really, really protown? I've seen you do it a lot and it's awesome. Who are your scum reads?

Kazikiramira: Whatcha thinking, pal? You look fairly townie thus far.

Funky,

why are you scum?

if you aren't scum, who is?

Maemuki, you're fluffing really hard. Granted you only have 6 posts, but most of them don't really contribute anything? Why didn't you pursue the following funky thing? What are your thoughts?

BV: Other than the shos WIFOM thing, is there any reason you suspect him? What do you think of funky?

Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why. At least funky had the decency to quote what he thought was scummy. I said that already, but you conviniently didn't catch that.

You mean when you said this? Where did you say it felt like sheeping? The part where you pointed out I voted after funky did? That just looks like a random observation.

And are you saying I didn't point out why I thought shos looked scummy?

You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, yes.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry, I meant to add comments to that full ISO of Maemuki. But in a way this is good, because the ISO speaks for itself: Maemuki hasn't really done much in this game.

12 and 16 are fluffy, even for RVS-standards.
Post 49 is telling in how it prioritizes fluff about Les Miserables over clarifying some game theory mechanic, which in itself is also quite fluffy considering it doesn't come with any kind of stance in the debate.
57 asks for reasoning from Mhork, but if you actually read the flow of the thread and are truly with your head in the game, that question is entirely useless. Mhork's reasons for voting are entirely obvious at that point, even though he did not explicitly add them. Feels like Maemuki is trying to get some scumhunting-cred by giving flak to the "argumentless vote", which is always quite popular among players of any alignment. But in this case it backfired, because Mhork's vote was not arumentless. This makes the rest of Maemuki's posts, which are all about this so-called sheeping, moot and unhelpful in the scumhunt. 61 ignored the fact shos made matters worse for himself inbetween Mhork's initial comments on him and his vote. Post 79, here the usage of the word "conveniently" shows overdefensiveness.

Nope, not liking this person.

[shos]

^^^ 124 is totally a scumpost, lol. funky is actually blaming me for the L-1 discussion.? was I the one to push over it OMG YOU IS SO RONG WUT U SO SCUM.? and then he claims maemukiscum without 'repeating others'...practically sheeping for realz.

holy shit GG wrote a lot one sec

[shos]

well I have to say this looks good. it looks even extra good when you look at the timestamps between the messages; unless he's like super-adamant-elegant scum who prepared it all up ahead and posted in good periods of time, this looks like a true townsperson taking his time to go over ISOs of practically everyone. that is, once again, me getting a townread on GG x)

the best thing notable in these walls, imo, is the line that says that maemuki's ISO speaks for itself. it is true; this is a superior example for active lurking; watch how he was online and reactive during the entire shos-l-1 debate and all he commented about was mhork's vote that was following another one. that is an entirely negligible part of the game thus far, and focusing on it while ignoring the real topics looks like he's trying to distance himself from the wagon, knowing that it'll end up a mislynch. not to mention that his definition of sheeping is plain wrong, lol, so even if, that nullifies his argument and entire participation in the game. I can definitely go with this wagon. lemme get a VC done.

[Grimgroove]

Haven't got much notes about Malakittens. Her post 27 seemed fair enough at the time, which I feel started off the game and got people out of RVS, though one could as well give credit to funky himself for that. It feels sincere, but it's also an argument that scum could make, so mostly null. The only other thing I have about MAlakittens is 83, where she (rightfully) finds it odd that funky had a townread on her after that. The mere statement "just wanted to see a reaction" sounds like her weasling her way out of the engagement to investigate funky more in depth, but I feel that's more due to laziness or due to time constraints than due to alignment. It's a pity she doesn't go deeper into it all, but I guess we'll have to blame that on the V/LA business. Would like to see more of her. Townreading her for now.

Kazekirimaru (if I got this name right off the top of my head I deserve a lollipop), not so sure. His 54 showed good logic and good reasoning about something that should have been obvious even without that explanation: "mentioning that your vote is L-1" is a nulltell. This is in a reaction to shos calling it a towntell. Kazekirimaru doesn't couple a vote to this, yet funky does (and Mhork in a way, as well). What should be noted here is that Kaze (fuck it, calling you Kaze from now on) doesn't react to these votes in any way, until 75. There something funny happened. Somehow the argument that "mentioning your vote is L-1" is suddenly an argument in favor of shos. That doesn't add up. Kaze suddenly changed his narrative here (always strange when that happens) and changed the Morton fork into this: "calling someone's mentioning of their vote being L-1 town is null". This was not the argument he made originally. Why now?
I also didn't like Kaze's 108. Even though I got comments now, I don't think he's shown the kind of activity that warrants him into expecting someone like me who just came in to have a read on him. Somehow felt like him calling me out. Confident scum? Perhaps, but I'm starting to feel I've got too many scumreads.

[shos]

well it seems no votes have been changed since last VC:

bv310 (L-4): Maemuki
Maemuki (L-5):
shos (L-2): funkybike1, Lord Mhork, elleheathen
funkybike1 (L-2): Kazekirimaru, Malakittens, shos

Not voting: Grimgroove, bv310

V/LA: Malakittens through 10/8

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-10-19 00:44:01)

Maemuki is voting BV?
Mae, explain that vote.

Since funky is a more practical lynch at the moment, I'll keep my vote where it's parked. if anyone thinks a maemuki wagon is better, hop on, I'll join you asap.


eh ninja'd again..

[bv310]

I can already see right now bv310 is going to be a tough nut to crack if it needs cracking. I don't know if he does, but I find him quite hard to read, due to minimalistic interventions. But despite the minimalism, I do have to say logic shines through the little he says. Now, I try to be careful with calling the use of logic a towntell, just as much I try to avoid considering not being good at logic a scumtell. But if one is confident in displaying logic it does give off the vibe that this person is also confident that logic will get him through this game. I'm not sure if scum is in a position to think this way. They need flaws in their reasoning, evidently helped by unwitting towns helping them pave the way, to get mislynches. If someone consequently uses logic with no discernable gaps I makes me townread them.
Thus I had a townread on bv103 for a while. 47 and 52 showed logic, and I agreed with 68 on shos' 62 being anti-town, though for other reasons than he mentioned (more later in post on shos).
BUT bv103 ruined everything in his post 102 which felt terribly artificial, which got me to rethink the things he said. There was very little about post 100 that was towny, or at least nothing that warranted such an "OH MY GOD I'm SHOCKED AT HOW TOWNY YOU SUDDENLY LOOK"-reaction.
Looking back at his earlier posts, his 47 and 52 are basically him calling the "use of bad logic" = scum. It's an alluring argument and not always made by scum, but people do tend to get illogical sometimes. Scum can make use of that, and somehow I don't feel now that the simple use of bad logic warrants such a strong reaction that bv103 displayed here.
There's been a sudden shift in his narrative that I don't feel explained. This shift is obviously 102[/post, but also 98 which already feels like a preparation for the unvote of shos. Suddenly shos has become an information lynch and mos tof it have been attitude tells.

I want more from bv103 for sure today. To get things started:

@bv310

: What are your thoughts on Maemuki?

For future reference, just using BV instead of my full username will save you some effort.

Now, I'm willing to say Maemuki is on my Null list right now. Post 79 was good content, but other than that, she's been really quiet. I disagree with your analysis, but only because I want more content before I can form a strong opinion.

To address your other concern, I wasn't "preparing to unvote". I was stating my uncertainty with my vote. The more I read over the thread, the more I'm willing to give Shos a pass on some of his less-bad stuff simply because he's cocky. I think part of the shittiest behavious is simply personality. Post whatever-the-fuck-the-number-was was the one that sold me on that aspect.

[Grimgroove]

My laptop battery is showing I've only got 40 minutes left. Forgot my power cable at work, blergh. Hope to get my notes on funky and shos through before this thing dies on me.

[penguin_alien]

By the witness of the game mod, by the hunting and the votes:
Micro two-four-two is awesome and is borne out in the quotes.

With nine alive, it takes five to lynch!

Vote Count 1.05:

Lord Mhork (L-5):
Malakittens (L-5):
Kazekirimaru (L-5):
bv310 (L-4): Maemuki
Maemuki (L-5):
shos (L-2): funkybike1, Lord Mhork, elleheathen
Grimgroove (L-5):
elleheathen (L-5):
funkybike1 (L-2): Kazekirimaru, Malakittens, shos

Not voting: Grimgroove, bv310

V/LA: Malakittens is V/LA through 10/8

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-10-19 00:44:01)

[shos]

@131: iirc, the thing that got kaze to change his mind was my sentence about the fact that, now, when it's in concious of everyone, mentioning L-1 is null, but before i brought it up, it wasn't.

btw, while I was probably wrong in this game specifically, I still think I'm right most of the time about this; but let's leave that discussion to outgame discussion.

ninja'd AGAIN dammit

AND AGAIN

[Grimgroove]

I would have preferred for Kaze to respond to it first, but no matter, because I don't feel your reply covers it anyway :p

What made you decide to explain Kaze's behavior? What's in it for town?

[shos]

lol mod your italics failed again.

Merde.

@BV: why is 79 any better than the three before it.?
do you agree with what I said about ignoring the conversation?

pedit: he's answered the question already iirc

[Grimgroove]

The funny thing about both funky and shos is that they seem to excell in one thing: point at each other. The thing they fail to do is stand up for themselves. Maybe it's them being the two competing wagons for now, but it doesn't make it easier. One thing I feel confident in saying: they're not scum together. I deeply believe that, regardless of how scum they may be in their own right.

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from 28: it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in 33 this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

Him using Kaze's logic to vote shos, while Kaze himself sees it as a reason not to vote shos, is something I'd like to see comments on by both parties involved.

[Grimgroove]

pedit: he's answered the question already iirc

Nope, he didn't.

[Grimgroove]

I'll have to comment on BV's latest post later, hopefully tomorrow, but in first instance I'd like to hear from him what it was about 100 that was so towny. I don't see it.

[Grimgroove]

The funny thing about both funky and shos is that they seem to excell in one thing: point at each other. The thing they fail to do is stand up for themselves. Maybe it's them being the two competing wagons for now, but it doesn't make it easier. One thing I feel confident in saying: they're not scum together. I deeply believe that, regardless of how scum they may be in their own right.

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from 28: it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in 33 this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

Him using Kaze's logic to vote shos, while Kaze himself sees it as a reason not to vote shos, is something I'd like to see comments on by both parties involved.

What I forgot to add here is the rest of 28, where he townreads Malakittens because of a reaction that is null (something shos will be called out for later as well for another action). It feels contrived; he puts Mhork at L-1 to get reactions, gets 1 reaction from Mala, reads her as town, and considers the reaction test a success. Feels rushed. This is where I got the vibe of funky being very very nervous about something.

So many people to keep an eye on in this game.

[Grimgroove]

LAst one for today: notes on shos.

With shos, it's not really the big picture or a general vibe I get from him, but an accumulation of little things that get me to scumread him.

It all begins with his townread on funky's L-1, which he needs to explain. His explanation is very bad logically speaking: he calls it towny because funky stated the vote was an L-1. This is normally a nullread. However, at this point I didn't think he was scummy for it. Like I said, bad logic is used all the time.
But in 48 he's playing stupid, like elleheathen also pointed out. He's equating "not mentioning a vote is L-1 is scummy" (which is a reasonable line of thinking) to "mentioning a vote is L-1 is towny", ino rder to somehow defend his flawed logic. It doesn't feel right.
62 is very scummy. I never like the "if I were scum, I wouldn't have drawn attention to myself"-argument. It's not because you got the attention on you, that you willingly drew it onto you. Trying to make it sound that way comes extremely close to plain lying.
65 is also bad. After basically everyone has been calling the pointing out of a vote being L-1 is null, here he asks the silly question of why people consider it scummy. NOBODY DOES! Shos is playing stupid here again and I don't like it.
67 is anachronic and feels like an opportunistic vote on the counter wagon.
84 sounds like a question that he cameup with even before this game started and is null in my eyes. Could be an awkward way to get himself out of a pickle.
100 I don't like the "I don't understand"-part, where he's playing stupid yet again. I explained it perfectly well I think. His explanation afterwards, while I don't feel it's convincing, clearly shows he DOES understand what I mean. He's trying to play innocent through seeming unknowing.

My notes tell me I should quote post 90 for some reason. Don't remember why ut I'll do that before battery is dead.

[Grimgroove]

A yes, aside from this, which I already mentioned:

If i am lynched before or after I claim, lynch my voters.

there's also this:

Do you understand that me calling someone Town now leads to my lynch?

which is an oversimplification of the strong case that currently is being put against him.

Out now. Want to see people's reaction to what I said before I put down a vote. Right now I still feel more like an observer than an active participant.

[shos]

@139: me not standing for myself? what have I done in the last 100 posts? I defended myself which is precisely why all attention was brought to me. if there's any question/accusation you have for me that I haven't answered, point it out, go on. why haven't you gone through my ISO, btw?

I really gotta go to sleep :/

ooh here are my notes lemme read

[Grimgroove]

Yes, I grant you've tried to stand up for yourself, I just don't think you've been very good at it so far. No offence intended but yeah, that's what I meant :p

[shos]

I'll explain.
when you are scum, gamestart is a perfect place to just lay votes without taking responsibility for them. it is also a place where quickhammers/derphamers/etc happen. if you, as scum, see an L-2 wagon,y ou can just jump on it without saying much, and you won't get too many flames, and you've enabled the opportunity for someone to miscount, not notice, or just not read and derphammer a townie. in practice, you have no incentive to actually state that it is L-1. When you're town, you still want to vote, because that's how games start - but you don't want a derphammer. so you have every incentive to make it seen that was an L-1 vote, and every incentive to avoid an option of a derphammer. in this game, specifically, funky bolded and italicized and underlined the L-1 claim, so I considered it a towny thing to do.

are we clear now? good. you are welcome to not agree with this theory, but if me making it up makes me scum, you're just being stupid, read my frekin meta, I do this every game.

I honestly don't understand you rpoint on 62. what? was I supposed to literally ignore every question asked at me..?
that post's idea was to say that, as scum, you don't get any benefit from saying a townread so early in the game. being the FIRST of all to have a reasoned read draws attention. if that attention was a scumread, then fine, because it can lead to a mislynch or something, which is beneficial. but a townread? why the fuck would I do that? you literally JUST played my scumgame. did I do that? the only reason I called a townread was because I understood YOUR role (and considering you were conftown..) and I tried twice in a row to kill you, lol. you can call this wifom I guess, but seriously, put yourself in shoes of scum and tell me if you'd do that.

@67 - I only voted in post 100. what are you talking about. also, I was asked for reads on page 3, so I gave them. you're forcing it now and it's not like you.

@84 - FFS. you people should all read my meta.

@100 - I don't understand what you want from me, lol. honestly. you wrote

"If i am lynched before or after I claim, lynch my voters."

That distinction is not only irrelevant for his intended result ("lynch his voters"), it's also nonsense. It implies that he's got a strong role on the one hand, by implying the claim in itself will be pivotal enough to warrant such a distinction, yet on the other hand implies a weak role since some people could still be moved to vote him and lynch him despite his claim. It doesn't seem to add up.

I have no idea(hence: don't understand) where you got the 'strong role'(btw, some people might ocnsider this rolefishing). that's A. "implying the claim in itself will be pivotal enough" - wtf? that's B. I have no idea what the word pivotal means, and as I said, I did not mean anything about the content of the claim, rather, about it being released before or after the hammer. Then comes 'implies a weak role'..because I might be lynched? have you NEVER EVER lynched a claimed cop, for example, for not believing him? do you understand how many logical failures are in this post, do you understand why it is very very possible to not understand it when I'm posting tired after work and extra work? how the hell do you even consider this as a reason to vote me??

btw inb4 someone claims that my indication of the time stamps of GG's post is null, FUCK OFF, lol

I wanted to go to sleep 15 minutes ago so ta-ta, get me your notes on 90 for tomorrow and I'll answer via phone.

@144 - oversimplification or not, the discussion started from me calling a townread, and people not agreeing it is a legitimate tell. there's really nothing more to it.

[funkybike1]

The funny thing about both funky and shos is that they seem to excell in one thing: point at each other. The thing they fail to do is stand up for themselves. Maybe it's them being the two competing wagons for now, but it doesn't make it easier. One thing I feel confident in saying: they're not scum together. I deeply believe that, regardless of how scum they may be in their own right.

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from 28: it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in 33 this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

Him using Kaze's logic to vote shos, while Kaze himself sees it as a reason not to vote shos, is something I'd like to see comments on by both parties involved.

What I forgot to add here is the rest of 28, where he townreads Malakittens because of a reaction that is null (something shos will be called out for later as well for another action). It feels contrived; he puts Mhork at L-1 to get reactions, gets 1 reaction from Mala, reads her as town, and considers the reaction test a success. Feels rushed. This is where I got the vibe of funky being very very nervous about something.

So many people to keep an eye on in this game.

You are right in that I appeared nervous, looking back on myself. And yes, I have been focusing on shos, due to my belief that he is scum and my other scumread Maemuki having no content whatsoever to point out. Initially, it was a pressure vote, with the Morton's Fork thing just piling on. I never expressed a fear of derphammering or quickhammering at all; I just said it won't happen if the scum are smart. My reaction test may have been a bit poorly done, but I did get what I wanted, which was a (IMO) townish post from Malakittens, and you were right to regard that as suspicious - I certainly would have looked at it again.

PEDIT: Seriously shos? #90 is a softclaim of a strong role. "Before or after I claim?" No townie or weaker role would say that. It's about the same as asking "if I'm a cop, should I claim it." Nobody is rolefishing here. Also, don't bring "you just played me as scum" into this. It only makes you look scummier.

And the timestamp thing is null. Too easy for scum to do.

[Lord Mhork]

I'm still interested in seeing Mae do something.