A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[SpyreX]

Better. At least you're talking his language. Could do with more skulls for the skull throne and taunting about boring ass vanilla cats, but it'll do, I guess.

There never will be enough taunting about boring ass vanilla cats. Never.

But I did get to catch up and so it begins:

THESE PEOPLE

:
Alfred Borden
Goat on a Raft
kanyeknowsbest
Nautilius
Prideandjoy
SafetyDance

NEED TO KILL THESE PEOPLE:

AGar
elleheathen
ooba
StupendousMan
Syryana
The Alchemist
Zdenek

AND SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF HERE:

Benmage
Cephrir
Garruk Relentless
Messiah Complex
quadz08
Shadoweh
Tammy
Tierce

I am super, super confident about the town grouping there. At MOST, and thats a most, there's 1 scum there. If I could nuke the rest of this game right now I would and watch the victories pour in.

The chaff is a little trickier. All in all of that group I think Tierce & quadz are most probably town. Garruk will really depend on the way things shake out, Shadow and Tammy I can't tell if its a distaste from the raw amount of tickling eachother early or the fact that they feel like a hydra displaced that makes me all bloodthirsty. Cephrir and Benmage are my two bipolar reads this game and I want someone to tell me for sure which way to go. Messiah I can barely remember and I just read the game.

As for the last group. I will immediately and without hesitation hammer any of them. My preferences are slightly in favor of AGar, Elle and Zdenek.
AGar for the combination of andruis's half-hearted attempt that was called out by benmage (and if AGar is scum, Benmage is town writ large) and 1140. Especially:

SafetyDance and his 10 scum reads can go pound salt, because that's about what that's worth. 10? The fuck, Faraday, why is there an almost 1:1 town scum ratio in this game?
Oh wait....
[sarcasm]The fuck, Faraday, why is there an almost 1:1 town scum ratio in this game?[/sarcasm]

I know I get replacement powers of reading that in one fell swoop but it took about 30 seconds to see what SD was doing. SD's problems (and redemption) came much later and and that point this is posturing. Also putting mac in the murder list is super itchy.

Elle was in the chaff pile until today. This wombo-combo:

@Alfred - In your 2160 reads, you have Zdenek up there in what looks like a varying degree of towny pile. Help me out and give me some insight into that one. My list looks fairly similar (at least name wise) with Z as the one exception.

My lynch pile looks something like: zdenek/amrun/ooba/kanye - though it's also a 'would like more from' pile.

And since almost everyone on the lynch is one of my townreads, with I think the one exception already named:

VOTE: Amrun

I believe this is L-2?

I'm conflicted on the slot - I think there was a point where I was leaning town due to some of their responses but it's been covered up under all the excuses ever. Content or claim, imo.

Not just stupid - intentional.

VOTE: Spyrex

Is enough. It takes a particularly ticklish brand of stones to call out the hammer even if it was fast. Someone with more time: I'd love to see if there was activity from anyone on the wagon after Garruk posted and BEFORE I hammered.

Zdenek doesn't get giant sets of quotes. His whole interaction around Thor early isn't natural. 400 and 401 are baad news.

The thor lynch hurts my head, but I will say this: its the right brand of hurt that I bet that is a way heavy town wagon. When VCA time comes, remember that.

And as for yesterdays hammer. Yea, I was only on 12. Now that I'm all caught up the only thing that would have given me pause is that there is no flips.

And I say pause. Because I would have still done it. Amrun was in my notes (which if someone reaaaaaaly wants to see and laugh at I guess I can post) from post 1 and that never changed. Riding the lurking dragon doesn't change that.

More importantly though: I have role-reasons for wanting that hammer. I also want this one.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 3, Vc 4

SpyreX (6) -

Tammy, ooba, Zdenek, quadz08, elleheathen, Goat on a Raft

elleheathen (1) -

PrideandJoy

AGar (6) -

Goat on a Raft, Benmage, Garruk Relentless, The Alchemist, Alfred Borden

Garruk Relentless (2) -

AGar, kanyeknowsbest

Nautilius (1) -

StupendousMan

Not voting (7)

:Alfred Borden, Cephrir, Messiah Complex, Nautilius, SpyreX, SafetyDance, Shadoweh, Tierce

With 21 alive it takes 11 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 25th of October at 16:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-25 04:30:01)
  
• elleheathen is V/la

[kanyeknowsbest]

yah i really hated that first elle post 2. agree w your towns but im starting to slip on pbj

[Shadoweh]

Why don't you have Shadoweh as town? And why aren't you trying to interact with her to feel out your read? In The Wire you ripped my head off and claimed I just didn't understand people because I couldn't see that Shadoweh was town in her first couple posts. This just feels really really off.

Shadoweh - what is your read on ActionDan?

Did you not see us arguing yesterday? >_> P&J is apparently having a terrible day and wants nothing to do with me. My not-solid claim is that he's town, just because I don't think he'd be as depressed as scum. He likes to do the scumbuddy planning in the cutie and having to figure out so many roles should be sending his motivation through the roof. I can't say it's solid just because I don't get why he's disengaged in the first place. (maybe he got the only vanilla role in an act of divine karma)

I don't actually want to lynch Spyrex because it's impossible to have a real opinion about a guy whose never posted other then taking the idiot hammer plunge, therefore having wants based around that person, besides the want to strangle them, don't make sense. I agree Agar's case and l-1 vte was worse but I have a better question, other then outrage why would we be centering the day on the top three fuckwits of the wagon? I understand refuge in audacity but it's still the scum that try to be the least audacious.

##Vote: ooba

Since you don't have a case on Spyrex (other then because he hammered) I'll address the post on Peacebringer you keep bringing up.
First of all it's pretty shitty to keep a case on a guy who replaced out warm this long, because no one's interested in refuting it, including the replacement. By now you should have seen the problems with the case yourself.
The post #984 you're referring to, in which you point out he replied to a part of Thor's post before replacing out an hour later, in my opinion sounds like a short terse reply, the kind you would get from say, an angry or fed up person. It's not unreasonable for him to have dwelled on his frustration and decided that no, fuck this. But, let's assume you are correct and he faked his reaction in order to replace out. If that's the tada at the end of your case marker, maybe you should have stopped at the

Reasons a Person is Scum

bin first. I know why I was suspicious of the replace out period, but you weren't involved in that game, your assumption doesn't match. Why couldn't he have been town faking to replace out?

My second issue with you is the aforementioned focus idea. It's like 7 days too early to be talking about your opinions on the 'wagons' (Garruk is not a wagon why would you think he is) and your opinion is dredging up DAy 1 other player stuff again. Considering the real problems people have with AGar are his downspiralling play after he replaced in, pulling up what you thought of his old self isn't really helpful, is it? What do you think of his play after, like his Amrun case?

How do I say this. I feel like your days are disconnected. Like you're just moving on to the next popular sport. Day 1 you had to Not me = well enough, yesterday you were on Messiah's balls and today you've skip and jumped happily to Spyrex because his hammer made you angrier I guess? But you're not voting on anger, you're claiming it's scumspicion, which doesn't fit in my eyes. Also, you justified your two scumreads as being scum together. To me that's an overexplanation of your scumreads (SWIDT), your scums don't have to be scum together for people to want to lynch them and they've not interacted, so to me it looks like you filled out the dots and are happy to keep using the same reasoning over and over to go after people. Townies don't think the same from day to day!

[PrideandJoy]

here that moved me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ooba

[quadz08]

Spy that's a decent post with some stuff in it, and the ponits on Elle are good. However, I don't understand your point on AGar (that case on SD was perfectly valid, and he was far from the only person to make it; why is he the only one that gets called out on it?), and possibly more importantly, you're now justifying your hammer with "well now that I

have

read the whole game, I still would have done it." That's not a reason to do it in the first place, and I don't think there's town motivation to do so without having read the whole game.

My vote stays for now. (I am not jumping on a growing Ooba wagon, guys, this is how bad I think Spy's hammer was.)

[SafetyDance]

And that's why you don't follow Tammy.

I'm V/

LA

mostly, mod seems to have forgotten the message I sent him. Should have more time after the weekend ends to read from day start, so on Monday.

[ooba]

@Shadoweh:

On Peacebringer:

I don't see a townie faking to replace out. Faking a reason to replace out - sure; Faking anger at a post just to replace out - no.

My opinions on the wagons:

I did not like how D2 ended abruptly. I wanted to take a more active role today in seeing who I want to get lynched lynched. That involves pushing cases on those I want lynched and dissuading people from other votes. If I had thought Agar's L-1 was scummy - I would have mentioned it.

Last paragraph:

That's how I scum hunt - I look at interactions.

"your scums don't have to be scum together for people to want to lynch them"

-> But they have to be scum together for me to want to lynch them - I search for scum pairings. Playstyle differences are not scummy.

"they've not interacted"

This is just wrong - They don't have to interact so there to be links between them. Messiah's "Oh no! Peace is also voting SM - I'm off this wagon" was strange. Messiah's future posts generally suspicious\questions others (like Cephrir) but not Peace's slot - in fact it's not mentioned at all.
Note: Messiah's D2 vote on displaced after I point this out is kinda dodgy too.

"same reasoning over and over"

,

"Townies don't think the same from day to day!"

- My scum read made what I considered an opportunistic hammer and I had Amrun as town - there's nothing in between that changed my read. And the "over and over" part makes it sounds like I'm using the same logic to dodge other game content - note:
a) I'm still posting my opinions on others
b) It's been just over 4 real life days since I posted the original case

---

@SpyreX

: Why the scum read on Syryana\The Alchemist?

[Messiah Complex]

This is just wrong - They don't have to interact so there to be links between them. Messiah's "Oh no! Peace is also voting SM - I'm off this wagon" was strange. Messiah's future posts generally suspicious\questions others (like Cephrir) but not Peace's slot - in fact it's not mentioned at all.
Note: Messiah's D2 vote on displaced after I point this out is kinda dodgy too.

Let's look at what actually happened:

@ macmollie: the safetydance wagon is totally whack, I agree. What're you seeing with Stup? Is it because the wagon's been a little too easy? Because I feel like Nautilus, Cephrir, and Goat all basically just sheeped it and it's making me uneasy. And who are you looking at if not them?

mebbe he comes off as forced cos he is newbtown worried about getting lynched.

or you mebbe right and he is scum and his scummates are trying to bus him.

there are actually a lot of reasons why he may across as "forced" but it may have nothing to do with his alignment.

he seems new. he seems like he is trying to find his way. <-----no way I am voting that, if he did something outstandingly scummy then yeah but he hasn't.that is why if he flips scum I will think it is a bus and if he flips town we know where to look.

Yeah, Peace being the 4th one who seemingly divined that Stup was scum upon reread is enough for me to go elsewhere.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

- Des

And Peace had already replaced out by the time this exchance occurred, followed by displaced doing approximately nothing until he got replaced himself, so what exactly should I have been mentioning about the slot that you think I was missing?

What did you point out and what was dodgy about the vote?

Vote: Elle

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Why did scum want mollie dead?

Because no one had them as scum and they were afraid of mollie coordinating a townbloc, which she had already begun to do yesterday.

I don't think I've ever seen mollie survive past D2 as town.

[ooba]

And Peace had already replaced out by the time this exchance occurred, followed by displaced doing approximately nothing until he got replaced himself, so what exactly should I have been mentioning about the slot that you think I was missing?

What did you point out and what was dodgy about the vote?

My pointing out was the case on Peacebringer.
a) The dodgy part was you immediately voting displaced when there wasn't any suspicion mentioned prior to that
b) Plus you voted a slot that was about to replaced. When I made that post, Peace was actually a stronger scum read for me; but I noticed displaced was being replaced and switched my vote to you. Why vote a slot that cannot answer back?

[Messiah Complex]

Why vote a slot that cannot answer back?

To pressure his replacement. I was voting Displaced/Spyrex based on mollie's peace-might-replaceout-as-scum catch. I had reason to believe this might be an accurate tell. Why do I need to have mentioned someone previously before placing a vote?

- Des

[Goat on a Raft]

Why vote a slot that cannot answer back?

This seems like the sort of reason you'd make up after the fact to justify something when called out. We don't see why you'd not want to vote a strong scumread who's being replaced.

[ooba]

Why vote a slot that cannot answer back?

To pressure his replacement. I was voting Displaced/Spyrex based on mollie's peace-might-replaceout-as-scum catch. I had reason to believe this might be an accurate tell. Why do I need to have mentioned someone previously before placing a vote?

- Des

I went back and checked - I thought your displaced vote was before SpyreX was slotted in to replace the game (Well you did vote displaced instead of SpyreX so that confused me). My bad. Strike that out.

Regarding the other point, well, you never mention peace at all. Nor the fact that you were voting based on mollie's case. A vote without prior suspicions and lack of a reason was suspicions.

@Goat: If someone voted for someone between the "I'm finding the replacement for X" and before mod has found a person ("Y is replacing X") - it's a waste of time since that slot can't reply back - and you're never going to get that person lynched. Better to pursue other cases and come back to that slot when someone's there.

[AGar]

V/LA until Tuesday.

Apologies. Didn't foresee this.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 3, Vc 5

SpyreX (6) -

Tammy, ooba, Zdenek, quadz08, elleheathen, Goat on a Raft

AGar (6) -

Goat on a Raft, Benmage, Garruk Relentless, The Alchemist, Alfred Borden

Garruk Relentless (2) -

AGar, kanyeknowsbest

Nautilius (1) -

StupendousMan

ooba (2) -

Shadoweh, PrideandJoy

elleheathen (1) -

Messiah Complex

Not voting (5)

:Cephrir, Nautilius, SpyreX, SafetyDance, Tierce

With 21 alive it takes 11 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 25th of October at 16:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-25 04:30:01)
  
• elleheathen is V/la. Sd and AGar are V/la

Doing a VC. I'll not be around much the next few days, so votecounts will be more sporadic.

[Shadoweh]

Excellent, I got some P&J on my side if you know what I mean.

Spy that's a decent post with some stuff in it, and the ponits on Elle are good. However, I don't understand your point on AGar (that case on SD was perfectly valid, and he was far from the only person to make it; why is he the only one that gets called out on it?), and possibly more importantly, you're now justifying your hammer with "well now that I

have

read the whole game, I still would have done it." That's not a reason to do it in the first place, and I don't think there's town motivation to do so without having read the whole game.

My vote stays for now. (I am not jumping on a growing Ooba wagon, guys, this is how bad I think Spy's hammer was.)

What case on SD, AGar was voting ooba and said SD's list was a null-tell >_> Spyrex also just claimed his role interacts with hammers. He probably saw L-1, saw 'IF HAMMER = USE POWER' and thought 'I'M GOING TO VEGAS'.

Now come vote ooba.

@Shadoweh:

On Peacebringer:

I don't see a townie faking to replace out. Faking a reason to replace out - sure; Faking anger at a post just to replace out - no.

I'm confused, did wanting to seem like they have a valid reason as a player to get out so they can keep playing other games on site become alignment relevant lately? Also does Spyrex claiming his blatantly opportunistic hammer on some girl he hadn't read about was because he wanted to charge up his power affect your reasoning? I will admit your Messiah comments are reasonable, and would make a much better case then what you've got on Spyrex.

If you don't want me to accuse you of using the same reasoning from day to day don't dig up smelly Day 1 case corpses, unless they're from murdered flipped townies.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek doesn't get giant sets of quotes. His whole interaction around Thor early isn't natural. 400 and 401 are baad news.

The thor lynch hurts my head, but I will say this: its the right brand of hurt that I bet that is a way heavy town wagon. When VCA time comes, remember that.

LOL.

You should probably just self-vote.

[Zdenek]

I'm really confused about why so many people are saying thinks like Spyrex is bad, but LOL we can forgive him, vote someone else.

It's making me nervous.

[Zdenek]

I mean, I pulled the exact same ploy in Syryana's Open, so I should know.

Well at least this make a bit of sense now.

[Zdenek]

Not really helping your case, Agar. I clearly stated intent and gave a timeframe. You know, like how people who are not fools or scum do things. I wouldn't have even done it though if you hadn't set up the hammer though--half of this game is understanding tempo, and with the L-1 vote lain, someone was going to take the bait. I was hoping to head it off with our intent, but it didn't work.

And I am not giving a pass on SpyreX's hammer, but I find it paradoxically MORE acceptable than the person who sets up the hammer, ie you--you were baiting the hammer with that vote and you fucking know it. I mean, I pulled the exact same ploy in Syryana's Open, so I should know.

You find it more acceptable that someone hammered off of 12 pages of reading than someone voting to put someone at L-1.

Gotcha.

This is a horrible response.

Hey! I agree with Tierce about something. That's cool.

pecially vs. Spyrex wagon (as he says, hammerin

Are you reading?

Why couldn't he have been town faking to replace out?

Those sorts of thoughts are not helpful.

Spy that's a decent post with some stuff in it, and the ponits on Elle are good. However, I don't understand your point on AGar (that case on SD was perfectly valid, and he was far from the only person to make it; why is he the only one that gets called out on it?), and possibly more importantly, you're now justifying your hammer with "well now that I

have

read the whole game, I still would have done it." That's not a reason to do it in the first place, and I don't think there's town motivation to do so without having read the whole game.

My vote stays for now. (I am not jumping on a growing Ooba wagon, guys, this is how bad I think Spy's hammer was.)

The cognitive dissonance in this post is astounding.

Kanye's cageyness is annoying - he's refusing to give meta references to Spyrex's quickhammering as town.

[Benmage]

Zdenek bullet the spyrex's case please.

[Benmage]

I'm really confused about why so many people are saying thinks like Spyrex is bad, but LOL we can forgive him, vote someone else.

It's making me nervous.

Statements like this make ME, nervous.

What is it some MaSsiVE conspiracy? Nope! This reads as disingenuous.

[StupendousMan]

If you guys could stop fucking around and making stupid quicklynches that would be great. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to lynch scum.

I've given my reasons for this vote,

and I'm sticking with it because they're scum.

VOTE: Nautilius

That is the worst way to help a "campaign" on the person you want to see hung.

How hard is it to type a few words or highlights as to why?? Is it not fresh enough in your memory? Do you not want to trip up?

Highlights:

Naut has done nothing to convince me they're town. But they have been too caring about self-image, unable to come up with their own cases, and lurking away from any pressure. Why are people not seeing this?

[ooba]

@Shadoweh

I'm confused, did wanting to seem like they have a valid reason as a player to get out so they can keep playing other games on site become alignment relevant lately?

To reiterate - Faking a reason to replace out - I can see a townie doing it (and scum) - meaning neutral.
Faking anger at a post to replace out - scummy. [And I'm not the only one who thought so]

Also does Spyrex claiming his blatantly opportunistic hammer on some girl he hadn't read about was because he wanted to charge up his power affect your reasoning?

Tammy's early D1 posting was genuine and a town tell.
Garruk's - "I support Tierece" on D2 was genuine and a town tell.
SpyreX's hammering and then saying I have role reasons is not a town tell and does not change my reasoning. [For comparison, Goat's posting "6 people are scum" was also neutral to me]. Before you ask how I differentiate {Tammy, Garruk} from {Goat, SpyreX} - that boils down to vibe.

If you don't want me to accuse you of using the same reasoning from day to day don't dig up smelly Day 1 case corpses, unless they're from murdered flipped townies.

I'm sorry but that's not how the game works - I will use game events and quotes as I see fit. As someone who does not have great rhetoric, if Nautilus has eloquently put why Andruis's early play was a town tell - I will use it.

---

Your case and arguments lack conviction. Maybe you should apply

Reasons a Person is Scum

test to the points you mention about me and figure things out - from where I'm standing - Peacebringer's replace is a difference in opinion and the rest are you not agreeing with play style (D3 focus, saying people are scum together, bringing up D1 quotes).